Is genjutsu more than just "illusion"

I read somewhere that the hand seals used to perform jutsu are simply a motion component that replaces the verbal component traditionally used in spell casting. This came from an interview done with the creator of naruto. So, if that's the case, then jutsu is magic and I'm wondering if genjutsu (even if it litterally means illusion) is more than just illusion, like charm spells (which is what I think Itachi used). The total darkness technique also seemed like it was more than illusion, just not quite a direct damage or defense attack. Same with zabuza's mist. What do you think?

genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

Sounds about right, but lets say the total darkness technique, would someone outside of it's area of effect be able to see into it, even they weren't there when it was cast?

as far as the manga or anime has shown, you can't see in or out of it

Probably when he cast it, he starts a fire. And then the black smoke covers the whole place till nobody can see in or out. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

i think itachi only uses illusion.......

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Originally posted by: orn210
i think itachi only uses illusion.......

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Itachi isnt the only ninja who uses illusions. If you remember a little back, Kurenai used an illusion technique against Itachi where she made his mind think there was a tree behind him and the branches caught him. But that didnt work against badass Itachi [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by: NarutoMaster

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Originally posted by: orn210
i think itachi only uses illusion.......

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Itachi isnt the only ninja who uses illusions. If you remember a little back, Kurenai used an illusion technique against Itachi where she made his mind think there was a tree behind him and the branches caught him. But that didnt work against badass Itachi [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

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uhhh i think he meant that genjutsu is the only thing itachi uses. you're thinking of "ONLY itachi uses genjutsu"

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@

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Originally posted by: NarutoMaster

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Originally posted by: orn210
i think itachi only uses illusion.......

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Itachi isnt the only ninja who uses illusions. If you remember a little back, Kurenai used an illusion technique against Itachi where she made his mind think there was a tree behind him and the branches caught him. But that didnt work against badass Itachi [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

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uhhh i think he meant that genjutsu is the only thing itachi uses. you're thinking of "ONLY itachi uses genjutsu"

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true true i meant he only uses the illusion type of genjutsu [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

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Itachi stated "just because this is an illusion, don't think the pain is fake" or something along those lines. It manipulates the sense of Pain, so therefore tricking your mind and inflicting physical pain. Tsukuyomi, is a mental world, and is manipulated as the user wishes.

Genjutsu is Normaly not real (Tsukuyomi is an exception), it as Mut@t@ said, it only tricks the mind into feeling emotions, and ect. So genjutsu can be concidered more than a illusion, it can be very real, depending on how your mind interprets it.

Zabuza's Mist? It just created extra extra mist. thats about it, or at least it created a false mist. or which ever.

I might be totatly wrong or right, its about 85 degrees here and i cant think!

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Originally posted by: -ANBU-Sasuke-

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

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Itachi stated "just because this is an illusion, don't think the pain is fake" or something along those lines. It manipulates the sense of Pain, so therefore tricking your mind and inflicting physical pain. Tsukuyomi, is a mental world, and is manipulated as the user wishes.

Genjutsu is Normaly not real (Tsukuyomi is an exception), it as Mut@t@ said, it only tricks the mind into feeling emotions, and ect. So genjutsu can be concidered more than a illusion, it can be very real, depending on how your mind interprets it.

Zabuza's Mist? It just created extra extra mist. thats about it, or at least it created a false mist. or which ever.

I might be totatly wrong or right, its about 85 degrees here and i cant think!

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i'm not sure if i am understanding you correctly but you're saying that tsukuyomi makes you to inflict physical pain by tricking your mind...? if that's so then i'd have to disagree with you. there is NO way the mind can inflict physical pain. kakashi was not bleeding anywhere. if tsukuyomi did trick kakashi's mind to cause actual physical pain, then we would've seen kakashi with thousand stab wounds on his body, bleeding everywhere. tsukuyomi made the mind think that kakashi felt the pain but there weren't any physical damage.

pain is a sensational response to something physically happening to your body
the cause of the pain is usually a real thing, but the sensation is still just a sense....so technically it would still fall under genjutsu

and zabuza's mist would prolly be a ninjutsu, not genjutsu....since he was literally using chakra to turn the water into mist

as for the darkness jutsu, unless they actually showed the anbu guys acknowledge it being dark or something (cant really remember), i would assume that it was more of just something that only the hokage saw. Some genjutsu affect the whole environment, while others affect only the target's perception of the environment. It wouldnt make sense for the darkness jutsu to fall into the former of those two categories, since it would hinder the sight of the 1st, 2nd, and orochimaru as well.

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@

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Originally posted by: -ANBU-Sasuke-

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

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Itachi stated "just because this is an illusion, don't think the pain is fake" or something along those lines. It manipulates the sense of Pain, so therefore tricking your mind and inflicting physical pain. Tsukuyomi, is a mental world, and is manipulated as the user wishes.

Genjutsu is Normaly not real (Tsukuyomi is an exception), it as Mut@t@ said, it only tricks the mind into feeling emotions, and ect. So genjutsu can be concidered more than a illusion, it can be very real, depending on how your mind interprets it.

Zabuza's Mist? It just created extra extra mist. thats about it, or at least it created a false mist. or which ever.

I might be totatly wrong or right, its about 85 degrees here and i cant think!

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i'm not sure if i am understanding you correctly but you're saying that tsukuyomi makes you to inflict physical pain by tricking your mind...? if that's so then i'd have to disagree with you. there is NO way the mind can inflict physical pain. kakashi was not bleeding anywhere. if tsukuyomi did trick kakashi's mind to cause actual physical pain, then we would've seen kakashi with thousand stab wounds on his body, bleeding everywhere. tsukuyomi made the mind think that kakashi felt the pain but there weren't any physical damage.

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I am not bio major but if you cut your finger there is information relayed to your brain that lets the brain know that you are damaged. If someone gets in a traumatic accident the brain will recieve certain signals that will make it command the body to release certain chemicals to suppress the pain. This is referred to as a state of shock. These chemicals are equal in power to morphine and if enough is released in the body, that person may even become comatose or die. In reality with no physical damage, if certain signals are sent to the brain the brain can "kill" the body.
I think this is what happened to Kakashi where he went into a state of shock and eventually passed out for a couple days.
Again I'm no bio major or anything. ;p

i think what tsukuyomi does is.. it does not inflict physical damage.. but it's totally strong genjitsu that you can't get out of it by just telling your brain it's not real... he gets them into a world where he can create almost anything.. adn tricks ppl... with kakashi.. i do not really think he actually was damaging kakashi's soul.. prob just was tricking him... but it seems to be a quite strong genjitsu like i mentioned

i think it may partly have to do with how a person reacts to something that seems extremely real or something. like, if you see something in your head that seems so real that it had to be or if you believe in it so much, it can become partly true. or something. and im sure there was plenty of psychological damage causing them to go all but insane

I agree with anyone who thinks its more than an illusion. Actually pain can be done mentaly if not physicaly.

Okay, maybe i didn't include that there wasn't REAL Physical Damage done to the body.

Proof One of Pain is not fake
Explaination Part 2 of Technique

There you have it.

Im too lazy to write anything logical or smart at the moment beside this. ^_^

they did say that it was only mental damage

well, by looking at those pic's Anbu Sasuke put then it's more then mental damage, he said it's real. Maybe it's internally, the damage. But then again, since that is his world, he could have just been saying that to make it seem that much more real

sasuke got it from itachi's piece of taijutsu not from the mangekyou sharingan

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

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It is stated in various episodes that Genjutsu definately CAN harm you physically, for your mind thinks its real and cant get back to reality.(one of them was when Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura were heading for the exams through the woods)
Lets say, you get shot bad and because of the trauma, you believe that your legs were shot off .. Do you really think it mathers wether your legs are still on even though you could see they are ? Cases like that even happen to "real"people in THIS world. Check the news//history more often about war-casualties, vietnam etc.
Although the attack on kakashi was different, It STILL wore out his body , meaning that his whole body was activated to prevent to much pain entering the cerebral core. Meaning that the brain thought the dmg was real, meaning that Kakashi too thought it was real EVEN though he KNEW otherwise.

well...that's why it's a strong and dangerous genjutsu

that could be true too

Tsukuyomi can kill a person though..

I think its a bit like the matrix, 'the body can't live without the mind'. The pain is not physical but mental, so for a person to survive such a jutsu they must be mentally strong.

I'm not ganna chat about chemical signals from sensory neurones and grey matter or wht have u, its just fair to say the pain is made real by the mind.

The pain feels physically real because the person is seeing themsleves being stabbed or whtevea in the virtual world created by Itachi, I think the fact that Itachi is always saying 'its real' refers to other 'real' mind control techniques. When I say real I am referring to techniques done by peaple like Derran Brown (known in the uk) who can induce thoughts through verbal and physical signals. The only way I can see somone overcoming the technique (apart from Sasuke who has kekkei genkai sharingan, or will do) is by realising that it is not happenning and that it is not rea,l like 'Neo'.

However I havn't had the chance to ask Itachi if the rules of his Mangekyo can be broken by a 'strong mind' for example sakura...... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] (the genjutsu specialist)

That would be funny if Sakura ends up beating Itachi, Sasuke would kille himself.

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Originally posted by: ?igma
It is stated in various episodes that Genjutsu definately CAN harm you physically, for your mind thinks its real and cant get back to reality.(one of them was when Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura were heading for the exams through the woods)

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can you be more specific on this? which parts?

v_v dont' insult Itachi like that.....biggest insult ... sakura... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

i think it's biggest insult for Itachi to say sakura can get out of that.. i mean... V_V.. and mak3 please don't call sakura genjitsu specialist.. cause she's so not..i do not wanna repeat myself.. so look at pg 3 on resemblence.. if you wanna know why i think that.. actually sasuke kinda is....cause he's usually the one to figure out before any of the teammate does...

and anyways.. yea right.. the day sakura beat Itachi when sasuke, and kakashi can't.. will be the day that the anime title changes to sakura..

EditL genjitsu itself can't physically hurt ppl.. but they can use illusion as advantage to inflict physical damage on the opponent

I wouldn't watch any more if that happened =x

lol.. me too...

would it be safe to guess that you two know each other, miaka and shinobineko?
this is like, the 5th time ive seen a string of posts that alternate between you two [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

AIM NO JUTSU!

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] who knows

(points at smiley face next to genjutsu specialist) errr i was kidding? Hope you guys are too cos I think Sakura is at a lower level than Udon. Hell I think a fight between them would be damn close but Udon would come out on top fosho.

yeah. you were kidding , but still wanted to post that about Sakura..Udon vs Sakura..might be interesting [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

definitely think konohamaru could beat sakura too

well some ppl are still saying she might become like tsunade so that means atleast jounin level

Who the hell is Udon?

konohamaru's teammate the one with the glasses

uh.. don't compare Sakura with TSunade... at least Tsunade is strong

yeah Udon is Konohamaru's teammate with glasses and has the snot or whatever comming out of his nose

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@

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Originally posted by: ?igma
It is stated in various episodes that Genjutsu definately CAN harm you physically, for your mind thinks its real and cant get back to reality.(one of them was when Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura were heading for the exams through the woods)

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can you be more specific on this? which parts?

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Sorry for the late response, I was on a festival (Dynamo Open Air) So I'm kinda broken [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
I think that was right before or inside an illusion made by some other threesome (dont get me wrong, I havent got all the episodes due to a serious fucking Sasser-virus (got router now [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]) they walk rounds all the time and once they discover it, they have to fight a bunch of illusionary enemies, created by the three to wear them out.
I think Kabuto stated it.

Actually, the replications were in fact illusions that can't hurt you. What was happening then was that the real ninjas were hiding and in the surroundings and attacking, using the replications as cover, so that Naruto's team wouldn't find their hiding place. Episode 36.

let me elaborate on it...

basically kagari's team (i think that's who it was) created bunch of regular clones (not kage bunshin). they didn't even use genjutsu. it was pure ninjutsu. anyway, since the clones can't actually attack you (only kage bunshin clones can), those three nins were matching the clones movements and throwing kunais at team 7. that's how those kids got hurt. the only time we saw kagari's team use genjutsu was when they had naruto's team walk around in circles trying to tire them out so that they become easy prey.

so yeah... like i said before, genjutsu can't cause actual physical harm.

Sasuke confirmed it was genjutsu with the sharingan, and kabuto agreed.

I thought that the genjutsu that time was the the one where they were walking in circles

If you have anbu's version of episode 36, check it at about 6:25 seconds into it. Sasuke and Kabuto say it's an illusionary technique, and it's not a mistranslation, because if you listen, you'll hear both of them say "genjutsu".

Oh okay he, don't remember exacly all the stuff from episodes that long ago

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
let me elaborate on it...

basically kagari's team (i think that's who it was) created bunch of regular clones (not kage bunshin). they didn't even use genjutsu. it was pure ninjutsu. anyway, since the clones can't actually attack you (only kage bunshin clones can), those three nins were matching the clones movements and throwing kunais at team 7. that's how those kids got hurt. the only time we saw kagari's team use genjutsu was when they had naruto's team walk around in circles trying to tire them out so that they become easy prey.

so yeah... like i said before, genjutsu can't cause actual physical harm.

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maybe you should view it again, since those three were incapable of making clones...

besides, I dont have to prove it, because it has already been proven, aswell as in the anime (itach -> Kakashi) as in real life.

editnr2: Besides Mut@t@ , putting someones arguments down is fine, but maybe , just maybe, you could let go of that fucking arrogance of yours ? You are only capable of writing that everybody else is a fucking retard and Mut@t@ is THE MAN, GOD, JEZUS WALKING OVER WATER, EINSTEIN -> Fucktard.

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Originally posted by: ?igma

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
let me elaborate on it...

basically kagari's team (i think that's who it was) created bunch of regular clones (not kage bunshin). they didn't even use genjutsu. it was pure ninjutsu. anyway, since the clones can't actually attack you (only kage bunshin clones can), those three nins were matching the clones movements and throwing kunais at team 7. that's how those kids got hurt. the only time we saw kagari's team use genjutsu was when they had naruto's team walk around in circles trying to tire them out so that they become easy prey.

so yeah... like i said before, genjutsu can't cause actual physical harm.

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maybe you should view it again, since those three were incapable of making clones...

besides, I dont have to prove it, because it has already been proven, aswell as in the anime (itach -> Kakashi) as in real life.

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ok, even if it was genjutsu, it still doesn't say that genjutsu was used to cause physical harm. kabuto says it himself "the enemy is most likely hiding somewhere and matching their attacks with the movements of the fake shinobis. so that it will seem like the illusions are attacking."

i've said it before and i'll say it again, genjutsu CANNOT cause actual physical harm. PERIOD. you can argue it all you want but i'm really sorry to say but you're wrong.

EDIT: dude, what the fuck? why the hell are you flipping out all of the sudden...

because I am right? , I havent seen even one!! reply of you that doesnt contain some sort of "air" around it..

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Originally posted by: ?igma
because I am right? , I havent seen even one!! reply of you that doesnt contain some sort of "air" around it..

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ok... let's say you are 'correct.' so tell me, what do you have to say to what kabuto said?

let me post it again:

kabut: "the enemy is most likely hiding somewhere and matching their attacks with the movements of the fake shinobis. so that it will seem like the illusions are attacking."

now, what does this prove?
1. you're wrong.
2. genjutsu cannot cause actual physical harm.

and seriously... why did you have to flip out and attack me? how random.

I debate the fact that it was random, since I already tried to tell you a couple times before.... You just never saw that.
And since I'm not in full rememberance of all that has happened in the episode, ofcourse you are right..here and only on this part.

Since I cannot change your mind about the FACT that Genjutsu CAN harm people physically, I will not try to make you believe any further, just accept is as a truth, or dont. I'm leaving that subject now.
(ok, one more example: when you have a decease, the body makes anti-cells, that are supposed to eliminate the virus. If the brain thinks you are ill, even though you are not, it will still make anti-virusses. The definition of physical pain is :
Experiencing pain is through signals from the skin, to the brain. Once it reaches the brain, you experience the pain, and not untill then.
Meaning, the body is just a hide, your brain is the one and only thing making physical pain MATTER. Influance on the brain is in direct affect on the body, wether the dmg is REAL or NOT.)

if there is one thing we learn from the matrix, is that if our mind think that we're dead we're dead. so genjustsu can somehow be leathal

uh one more. During the appearance of Kisame and Itachi, the female ..whatever .. used genjutsu. Since she was able to captivate Itachi withing physical boundaries, it could also harm. That Genjutsu however was not an attack on the brain, but simply created something new.

but she didnt actually create a tree, she just made itachi see a tree that isnt really there

i am sure the tree is not physical but an illusion that make him think there is a tree there and he is imobalize by the tree. and when Kurenei tried to poke Itachi (that sounds so wrong) i am sure she was tryin to convince his mind that she was poking him.

you still didnt get my point right..?... The tree might not have been there, but it still captured him..is that his brain or his body working there ? or is there absolutely no difference, thats what genjutsu is about.

the tree was an illusion, but yes the mind could think its trapped by an illusionary tree
kurenai with the kunai WAS real though, she wasnt going to "imaginarily poke" itachi [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

about kurenai's genjutsu... the reason why we (the viewers) saw the tree was to show that that's what itachi and kurenai were seeing... everything was an illusion except the kunai. that's why kurenai had to bite her lip to get herself out of the tree... nothing we've seen in naruto suggest that genjutsu can cause actual physical harm.

like i said before.. genjitsu itself can't physically hurt a person.. but you can use them as your advantage to get your opponent...

The illusion itself cannot cause real injuries or wounds, but it can be used to hide an actual physical attack. It can also harm your mind or spirit because if your mind believes the illusion, than so does your body (Itachi's Mange Sharingan).

heh, well, you'll see some day [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] (not referring to the manga, yet..)

see what?

i have n o idea

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

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its kinda like the matrix you get hurt in the matrix then ur body gets hurt too....

no it's not...in matrix... you really can't get out of that.. but with genjitsu you can.... if you have strong will...

I'm kind of agreeing with sigma here. Genjustsu will never do anything like cut off a leg, or put a bullet in a brain. But the thing that causes the damage is the way the body reacts to it. The biochemistry involved becomes disrupted, and that's what kills. I think that, if you can trick the mind into responding to the genjutsu in that manner, then you really could take someones life with it, or paralyses them. If any damage were caused, it would be limited to neurological damage because genjutsu affects the brain. No matter how hard you try, you'll never cause any damage to a door knob with genjutsu (no brain), that's for sure.

The indication of that being true is when Itachi said that the pain was not fake. I take that to mean that his body chemistry was reacting as if there were stab wounds. Not everything, just the nervous and endocrine systems (he should have been spewing adrenaline like crazy. In fact...that might have been the cause of his physical exhaution.)

Another way that genjutsu might work to cause actual damage, is to scare the living shit out of someone. Specially old people. If you make something sufficiently frightning, you might be able to cause that person to have a heart attack...like giving a surprise party to your 100 yr old grandmother...

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Originally posted by: miaka
no it's not...in matrix... you really can't get out of that.. but with genjitsu you can.... if you have strong will...

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miaka...maika...maika *shake head* he said it's LIKE in the matrix. i am sure what he is tryin to say is that just like in the matrix if the mind believe the pain is real enough the body will as well.

lol yeah.. wasn't saying it is the matrix but making a comparison

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img] narashikamaru

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] sorry got bored. u can point out my spelling mistake and gramatic mistake miaka. dont be shy point and laugh and laugh and point

in that case.. I M NOT MAIKA... it's MIAKA.... train your eyes[img]i/expressions/devil.gif[/img]

and by the way... another thing i caught.. it's trying.. not tryin....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] muhahaha

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Originally posted by: Uchiha Barles
I'm kind of agreeing with sigma here. Genjustsu will never do anything like cut off a leg, or put a bullet in a brain. But the thing that causes the damage is the way the body reacts to it. The biochemistry involved becomes disrupted, and that's what kills. I think that, if you can trick the mind into responding to the genjutsu in that manner, then you really could take someones life with it, or paralyses them. If any damage were caused, it would be limited to neurological damage because genjutsu affects the brain. No matter how hard you try, you'll never cause any damage to a door knob with genjutsu (no brain), that's for sure.

The indication of that being true is when Itachi said that the pain was not fake. I take that to mean that his body chemistry was reacting as if there were stab wounds. Not everything, just the nervous and endocrine systems (he should have been spewing adrenaline like crazy. In fact...that might have been the cause of his physical exhaution.)

Another way that genjutsu might work to cause actual damage, is to scare the living shit out of someone. Specially old people. If you make something sufficiently frightning, you might be able to cause that person to have a heart attack...like giving a surprise party to your 100 yr old grandmother...

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Thank you, well put [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

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Originally posted by: miaka
in that case.. I M NOT MAIKA... it's MIAKA.... train your eyes[img]i/expressions/devil.gif[/img]

and by the way... another thing i caught.. it's trying.. not tryin....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] muhahaha

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=P Looks like you are having fun

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] yes i m

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Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
as for the darkness jutsu, unless they actually showed the anbu guys acknowledge it being dark or something (cant really remember), i would assume that it was more of just something that only the hokage saw. Some genjutsu affect the whole environment, while others affect only the target's perception of the environment. It wouldnt make sense for the darkness jutsu to fall into the former of those two categories, since it would hinder the sight of the 1st, 2nd, and orochimaru as well.

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Actually... orochimaru did comment saying "the darkness disappeared" or something of the like... so maybe it does affect the whole environment... although that would severely limit the capabilities of the genjutsu if even the user sees darkness. So from the ep, we know Sandaime can see total darkness, and orochimaru was at least aware of the darkness... the other 2 hokage's i dont know... i would like to think they could see but if they couldnt, that would explaing how hokage was so easily able to catch them... any thoughts?

Thoughts? Nope, wrong forum buddy. Just kidding [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] I don't know why I'm in my dumbass mood today. I asked the whole genjutsu question was that I read an interview and kishimoto said that the hand seals were just replacements for the more traditional verbal components of spells. That immediately sent me to my AD&D days, and I started thinking in those terms. I was wondering if the total darkness spell was like the continual darkness spell in AD&D, because it's not an illusion there. But even thinking outside those terms, someone posted earlier that the two kages knew their way well enough in the darkness to rough up Sandaime. I think they could see.

yeah they roughed him up, which gave me the impression that they could see, and I thought to myself sandaime was able to catch them the first try because he an exceptional shinobi capable on relying on other senses to determine his enemies location. But what about orochimaru? He detected the darkness. Did they not care about him and put him in darkness as well? doubt it. So maybe he somehow just felt that the genjutsu was terminated... meh, weird... but u know whats weirder? go the the post i just posted a few min back... if i cant refer to other posts i for some reason (a rule or somethin) I apologize...

Good point, I'll have to check the episodes at some point when I'm not so tired.

just minor inconsistencies that only otakus would concern themselves with [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

in cases where the debate hasnt been directly answered in the story, you just gotta go with the one that seems most logical

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Originally posted by: Uchiha Barles
I read somewhere that the hand seals used to perform jutsu are simply a motion component that replaces the verbal component traditionally used in spell casting. This came from an interview done with the creator of naruto. So, if that's the case, then jutsu is magic and I'm wondering if genjutsu (even if it litterally means illusion) is more than just illusion, like charm spells (which is what I think Itachi used). The total darkness technique also seemed like it was more than illusion, just not quite a direct damage or defense attack. Same with zabuza's mist. What do you think?

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I would think it's a little different than magic. Most magics, if you would, rely more on using outside components to create the results. Usually as in material (ingredients, reagents) somatic (hand gestures) and verbal (chanting or words) forms, in specific combinations and such. And depending on the system, the magic will take some kind of toll onthe caster, most popular being mana. Mana in essence being a spiritual force which all living beings have.

As for jutsus, there are some differences. To use them usually one has to form a specific sequence to hand seals. And before that the user must draw up and direct chakra. You must use mind and soul to draw upon the bio-energy which is commonly composed of chakra, and hand seals are used to form the chakra into the desired effect once it leaves the body.

If anything, jutsus are more of a spiritual/psychic ability than magic.

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

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From what Itachi stated, Tsukuyomi is more than a simply illusionary technique. As shown, genjutsu are designed to trick or fool one or more sense but they cannot go against reality and physical law. A keen observer can usually dispel genjutu if they observer knows which senses are being tricked and how.

Tsukuyomi is more than this, it seems to be a realm either completely created using Itachi's mind or could be an alternate reality he has access to. When he uses it, the jutsu seems to use chakra to draw the victim's collective consciousness (mind, spirit, and soul) into Tsukuyomi. And that is why it's not a normal genjutsu, nor can it be negated by trying to realize it's not real.

It is not tricking the physical senses, it tricks the spiritual and mental senses. Which is most likely why it is so throughly effective at lacking any sort of defense or negation but someone else who posseses the same abilities and talents.

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I would think it's a little different than magic. Most magics, if you would, rely more on using outside components to create the results. Usually as in material (ingredients, reagents) somatic (hand gestures) and verbal (chanting or words) forms, in specific combinations and such.

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So they only use hand gestures and not the other 2, I don't see how this differs when sometimes it is shown as them only using words to cast a spell.

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And depending on the system, the magic will take some kind of toll onthe caster, most popular being mana. Mana in essence being a spiritual force which all living beings have.

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Kind of like...chakara?

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As for jutsus, there are some differences. To use them usually one has to form a specific sequence to hand seals. And before that the user must draw up and direct chakra. You must use mind and soul to draw upon the bio-energy which is commonly composed of chakra, and hand seals are used to form the chakra into the desired effect once it leaves the body.

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This might just be akin to your example of mana, you never know!

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If anything, jutsus are more of a spiritual/psychic ability than magic.

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Spiritual ability is generaly thought of as magic(witches ect) and i don't think jutsus relate to psychic abilitys at all.

http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/2966.html
- quick google with term "local anesthesia"
- note the "inability to feel pain" in first sentence

When you say "physical pain", I assume you refer to pain felt after something physical is done to the body. That would be physical pain, as opposed to other pain (mental, spiritual, social health and whatnot). However, humans can cause pain to not be felt even though the physical cause is there (think surgery and anesthesia, getting cut up but no pain). Of course, [I don't believe that] we have ways of causing physical pain without a physical cause (opposite of anesthesia), but in the make anime world of Naruto, Itachi can, with his technique. It is debatable, however, if the pain from the technique is mental or physical. However, if a mind feels there is physical pain, there are certain measures it takes, which could then lead to actual pain, because the measures are being taken when nothing is wrong.

edit: random grammar mistakes