GATE: Jieitai Kanochi nite, Kaku Tatakaeri

If Arpeggio got the same kind of cheats her sister did with Earth textbooks and science and then apply her specialty to Earth physics (basically the opposite of what Lelei is doing), I wouldn't be surprised if she could do something like modify minerals in a way that would be super valuable to Earth, but considered "pointless" on their homeworld.

Something like trivially make warm superconductors.

But no, Lelei is "special" and Arpeggio will be used to hunt for metals in the ground like a dowsing rod.

Arpeggio will never be part of Itami's harem. We already have the annoying normal girl in Tuka. Lelei covers the blue-haired robot face trope.

I actually agree with Ryll on Arpeggio's magic. That was pretty cool, which would've been more awesome if it actually hit properly. I just don't like vocally jealous characters. They just seem really petty, but that's a personal thing. It's not like it's Lelei's fault for being lucky.

The funny thing is, I don't like Lelei the Most Boring Mage either. Or Useless Tuka. Or Rory all that much because of her slut voice. Or Master Jedi Shino for being a paper-thin psycho character.

It's amazing that this show got so far with such terrible, flat (and not in the good way) characters. The concept of having modern military in a fantasy world really is interesting.

I didn't like Arpeggio getting envious of Lelei's progress in magic. She should have instead been happy for her little sister. And then proceeded to get everything out of her knowledge of minerals to get herself a position among the Japanese as well. I would have been okay of her getting jealous about the little brat's success with men, as big a misunderstanding as it was.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Sure, they are there to conquer in the same way big business in capitalism conquers

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This would be a nice comparison ... if it wasn´t so wrong. Disregarding our personal views on capitalism, capitalism never directly involves any sort of military action. But there are two major differences in GATE: 1.) This so-called peace only exists for as long as the Empire does as the JSDF demands. One out-of-line refusal and the JSDF simply threatens/uses military power. 2.) We live in a modern world, full of morality and ethics. In such a world, you simply mustn´t trick an underdeveloped nation into giving them previous ressources for worthless junk. What do you think would happen if that deal with the silver mines came to public in the real world? There´d be a justified outrage among human right activists, similiar to diamonds in Africa.

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Of course it's petty. He's rejecting peace in a war they started but can't possibly win. He doesn't give a shit if thousands of soldiers or civilians die, as long as he can somehow feel like he's not being forced into a peace.

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He doesn´t want to be forced into "peace". Quite ironically, Zolzal seems to be one of the very few characters that understands what´s happening: His kingdom is being conquered/oppressed by an outside-aggressor. It isn´t real peace, if you don´t have a choice if you don´t get to make fair deals. When Harris made a treaty with Japan in 1858, those deals were unfair towards Japan, but they had to accept them in face of an overwhelming power (the USA). But even then, Japan wasn´t as underdeveloped as the Empire people are compared to the JSDF. It really is as if you send modern day military back in time to fight some African tribes. When a soldier sitting inside a tank asks a native "hey, let´s make peace. We also want that stretch of land over there" and the native replies "we want peace, too, but that stretch of land is our holy ground, so please leave it be", and the soldier just takes it and kills anybody that complains ... that - is - not - peace. I will admit that Zolzal is a more aggressive person by nature (although that´s more because of the aristocratic entitlement), but what he´s doing atm is simply what any good king would do: Protect the kingdom, protect the people. That he´s forced to kill some of his own people is just prove of how desperate the situation is against this godly enemy.

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She's not interested in the empire changing it ways. She's interested in the empire being destroyed.(...) I guess at that point she would seal the deal, cut her losses, and simply murder the new emperor and any other noble she could.

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I think you underestimate her. You interpret her willingness to get fucked by the new king as prove of her being broken, living only for that one aim. I disagree. She probably hasn´t witnessed the battle on Alnus hill. She doesn´t know just how godforsakenly hopeless military opposition is for the Empire against the JSDF. If she understood that difference in power, I could very well see her having a moment of realization, of epiphany. This is a repeat of what happened to her own people. An overwhelming force mercilessly making its way. This is what could drive her to give up on petty revenge and side with the new king, under aforementioned conditions. And truly, wouldn´t that be the best? A kingdom lead by man and animal-woman, opening a new era without racial discrimination? Considering that the portal will close at some point, it´s pretty meaningless for the JSDF to "win".

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Originally Posted by shinta|
It's amazing that this show got so far with such terrible, [U

flat[/U] (and not in the good way) characters. The concept of having modern military in a fantasy world really is interesting.

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What I keep repeating :D

Regarding Arpeggio: It´s unfair to compare her to typically jealous characters. Being happy for your little sister has its limits. When the whole world shoves into your face how good other people have it, especially when it´s your little sister, there´s a breaking point. I feel a lot of empathy for her, because I can relate to it personally (my younger brothers being more successful than me irl). She´s simply too tragic. I wanna hug her. Then marry her. :>

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Originally Posted by MFauli

This would be a nice comparison ... if it wasn´t so wrong. Disregarding our personal views on capitalism, capitalism never directly involves any sort of military action. But there are two major differences in GATE: 1.) This so-called peace only exists for as long as the Empire does as the JSDF demands. One out-of-line refusal and the JSDF simply threatens/uses military power. 2.) We live in a modern world, full of morality and ethics. In such a world, you simply mustn´t trick an underdeveloped nation into giving them previous ressources for worthless junk. What do you think would happen if that deal with the silver mines came to public in the real world? There´d be a justified outrage among human right activists, similiar to diamonds in Africa.

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We haven't seen any evidence of that. In fact we know nothing of the proposed peace treaty, aside from the fact it contains a heavy financial penalty for the empire, which is designed to be alleviated considerable during the negotiations. That seems quite wise and practical as that would make the empire feel like they did their best. But otherwise there's no indication whatsoever the empire would lose a single bit of their indepence. There has been no talk about territory to be ceded. At the moment there is no peace and they are at war. So, bombing or anything is natural. That's what war is all about, after all. Yet the folks of the capital have been living their lives normally, as if there was no war, because the Japanese certainly aren't keeping it hot.

One man's junk is another man's treasure. Who's to define its worth? A 1000 yen kitchen knife from Japan would be worth ten or fifty times more in that fantasy world because they can mass produce neither high quality steel (let alone stainless steel) nor the knives themselves. Thus the people would be grateful for receiving such. It's not an option for them to walk into a dollar store to buy one with their pocket money. A human rights activist complaining about that can go work in the salt mines.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

He doesn´t want to be forced into "peace". Quite ironically, Zolzal seems to be one of the very few characters that understands what´s happening: His kingdom is being conquered/oppressed by an outside-aggressor.

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Except that it was never conquered or oppressed. Instead the country the empire attacked wants peace despite their overwhelming military might. If the roles were reversed, do you think this prince would have done anything else but rob and burn down the Japanese towns and enslave the people? No, because we already know that's what he does from what happened to the bunny people. The dude is fucking lucky to still possess a kingdom to inherit but his peanut sized brain can't comprehend it.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

I think you underestimate her. You interpret her willingness to get fucked by the new king as prove of her being broken, living only for that one aim. I disagree. She probably hasn´t witnessed the battle on Alnus hill. She doesn´t know just how godforsakenly hopeless military opposition is for the Empire against the JSDF. If she understood that difference in power, I could very well see her having a moment of realization, of epiphany. This is a repeat of what happened to her own people. An overwhelming force mercilessly making its way. This is what could drive her to give up on petty revenge and side with the new king, under aforementioned conditions. And truly, wouldn´t that be the best? A kingdom lead by man and animal-woman, opening a new era without racial discrimination? Considering that the portal will close at some point, it´s pretty meaningless for the JSDF to "win".

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You are thinking 180 degrees backwards here. The more powerful the JSDF, the happier the bunny princess. Because it ensures the empire will be utterly destroyed once she can instigate a good all-out war between the empire and the Japanese. She won't suddenly start to pity the empire. Although the open war will never happen, so it's kind of all the same. She's reduced to trying to execute one plan after another, but she'll never succeed. Perhaps her best bet is the second brother. The other countries probably don't share the values of the Japanese, so they might annihilate the empire if given a chance.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

One man's junk is another man's treasure. Who's to define its worth?

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Then let them define everything´s worth by openly stating the facts, how about that? Fact is, the JSDF didn´t know about the portal closing again at some point in time. Their plan was long-term, annex land, get precious untapped ressources for almost free, maybe outsource the Japanese population sometime.
If it was all a quick business exchange, like, "the portal is closing in 3 days. Give us this metal and we will give you 1000 kitchen units", then it´d be somewhat okay. But they planned on all of it being a permanent situation. Therefore they fully intended to absuse the lack of knowledge of the Empire people.

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Except that it was never conquered or oppressed.

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So what do you think would happen if the Empire said "we accept peace, but we don´t want to give you any ressources or land"?

Also, you can insult Zolzal as much as you want, I like him :)

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You are thinking 180 degrees backwards here.

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I´m thinking up a scenario that would be interesting to watch. It´s not what makes the most sense as of right now, of course. But it´d be super boring if Tyuule was so simple minded that she only cares about the ongoing revenge plan. If it´s about creating a path of victory against the JSDF, I simply believe that Zolzal and Tyuule teaming up would be one of the very few options.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Then let them define everything´s worth by openly stating the facts, how about that? Fact is, the JSDF didn´t know about the portal closing again at some point in time. Their plan was long-term, annex land, get precious untapped ressources for almost free, maybe outsource the Japanese population sometime.
If it was all a quick business exchange, like, "the portal is closing in 3 days. Give us this metal and we will give you 1000 kitchen units", then it´d be somewhat okay. But they planned on all of it being a permanent situation. Therefore they fully intended to absuse the lack of knowledge of the Empire people.

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Sure. The empire did lose the immediately vicinity of the gate probably permanently, unless the gate starts to close soon and the Japanese troops withdraw. If the refugees now living there decide to stay around the gate, Zolzal will need to slaughter them all to get the gate back. But he would do that without a second thought laughing and crying tears of joy.

What would you expect the Japanese to do? Of course they took control of the gate. A while ago murderous hordes of men and monsters pour through it into the middle of Tokyo and murdered or kidnapped lots of people. Even the Japanese aren't pacifists enough to let that happen a second time. The empire lost the right to that place when attacked and then lost. Plain and simple.

Anything else is your speculation and demonisation of the Japanese who haven't yet done anything you accuse them of.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

So what do you think would happen if the Empire said "we accept peace, but we don´t want to give you any ressources or land"?

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There are plenty of other countries and government around. One of them already agreed to give the Japanese the right to mine. Others will as well. In fact Zolzal would as well when he sees the other countries benefiting from it and his own senators and merchants will start to complain.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

I simply believe that Zolzal and Tyuule teaming up would be one of the very few options.

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That would be the mother of all Stockholm syndromes. He destroyed her country, enslaved her people, and then raped her every night. And you think she will start to work with him and genuinely further his goals? Yeah, right. Won't happen outside of H-doujins.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Stuff about Lelei and bunny girl

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Lelei lucked out, Lelei's perfect.. so it justifies my putting a pie in your face. That's what I'm reading..

I sort of admire your efforts to really drive this story in a different direction. I can't ever see anyone join forces with the prince after having him steam-roll you. "Serves you right" is more like it.

Also, don't forget the empire sent dragons after civilians first.

I sort of admire you guys for seriously answering him even now.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

What would you expect the Japanese to do? Of course they took control of the gate. A while ago murderous hordes of men and monsters pour through it into the middle of Tokyo and murdered or kidnapped lots of people. Even the Japanese aren't pacifists enough to let that happen a second time. The empire lost the right to that place when attacked and then lost. Plain and simple.

There are plenty of other countries and government around. One of them already agreed to give the Japanese the right to mine. Others will as well. In fact Zolzal would as well when he sees the other countries benefiting from it and his own senators and merchants will start to complain.

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Yes, they gave the JSDF valuable ressources they have no idea about just how valuable they are, for a ridiculous cheap reward. And we DID see a scene where politicians talked about annexing the land beyond the portal. It is one thing to install proper defense mechanisms, so that another attack on Tokyo cannot happen. But the JSDF is now way too aggressive. And I stand by my question: What if the Empire and all the other kingdoms tell them "peace, okay, but leave our land alone. It´s ours"? What then? That´s kinda the central dilemma. You´re accusing me of demonizing Japan, but I bet there wouldn´t be much peace talks left, if the fantasy people refused the JSDF´s demands.

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That would be the mother of all Stockholm syndromes. He destroyed her country, enslaved her people, and then raped her every night. And you think she will start to work with him and genuinely further his goals? Yeah, right. Won't happen outside of H-doujins.

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1.) This anime isn´t above a h-doujin story. 2.) I simply hope for Tyuule not to be that 1dimensional of a character. Boo-fucking-hoo, her country got conquered and her people enslaved. Yes, that sucks. But it is the past. Simple-minded revenge is just too disgraceful for a character with her cunning and intelligence. I´m not saying you´re wrong, because most likely that´s what´s gonna happen. But I do have some hope left that Tyuule gets over herself and instead of dwelling on the past, she thinks about her future, her´s and her remaining people. Ruining the Empire and killing its royalty is one way, but it´s a suicide plan without anything positive to follow. Another option would be to team up with the new king, become his queen and re-instate her people as proper people of the kingdom. Unlikely for a bunch of reasons, but also the best route imo.

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Originally Posted by shinta|hikari

I sort of admire you guys for seriously answering him even now.

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shinta, do you want me to leave this forum? You keep harrassing me in every thread I write, and unlike you, I make elaborate postings where I explain my opinion/position in detail, because it´s fun to talk about it. What is your problem?

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Originally Posted by MFauli

Ruining the Empire and killing its royalty is one way, but it´s a suicide plan without anything positive to follow. Another option would be to team up with the new king, become his queen and re-instate her people as proper people of the kingdom. Unlikely for a bunch of reasons, but also the best route imo.

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Nah, I'm pretty sure the best way to help her people is to destroy the empire that totally obliterated their bunny land. This new emperor is the same one that vanquished the bunny country. It's highly unlikely he would now suddenly help those same people, at least more than nominally. As soon as Tyuule asked for something that's not directly related to Zolzal's own ambitions, a greedy narcissist like he would immediately start to suspect her. That would be the beginning of her end. To be purely theoretic, even if he did do a 180 turn and tried to help the rabbit eared people, a majority of them would never forgive and even less trust him. If someone like Pina became the ruler of the empire, there's a chance she could give back the land to the bunny folks, free the slaves to allow them to return there, and grant them total indepence. There would still be helluva lot of bitter bunny people who would spend their days dreaming of revenge, but it might work in practice, more or less.

Tyuule would gain absolutely nothing for her own people by genuinely working with the emperor unless she somehow actually tricked him into believing freeing the slaves and granting the bunnies their own country would help the emperor and the empire. That seems like a 1% chance. Not to mention she's already so wicked it would be difficult for her to forget her own bloody thirst for revenge.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

But I do have some hope left that Tyuule gets over herself and instead of dwelling on the past, she thinks about her future, her´s and her remaining people. Ruining the Empire and killing its royalty is one way, but it´s a suicide plan without anything positive to follow.

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If we listen to Delilah, she never cared about them in the first place. Just herself.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

If we listen to Delilah, she never cared about them in the first place. Just herself.

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That doesn't seem to be the case, not entirely. If she only cared about herself, she would be seeking personal power for the sake of raising her own status. Plus it's kind of hard to see why she would suffer being violated by Zolzal for so long if she really cared about herself that much. It seems to me all she cares about is revenge. She doesn't mind ruining herself as long as the empire is obliterated. Of course this doesn't mean she loves her own people, which is why it could be extremely difficult to make her see reason and compromise to help the bunny race.

That being said, wasn't Delilah ready to fight to the last rabbit to oppose the empire? If things had gone that way, their people simply would be no more, with no chance of salvation in the future.

This is why we need to see Delilah and Yanagida again. The JSDF needs to interrogate her for trying to assassinate the POW girl, and that should have her elaborate substantially on Tyuule's background.

Unless the author doesn't realize the importance and just lets that thread die for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Tyuule would gain absolutely nothing for her own people by genuinely working with the emperor.

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I´m operating under the belief that Zolzal isn´t pure evil incarnate. He was born a prince, he grew up a prince, and he is now a king. This is his life, his way of living - he doesn´t know better. But what he does, is not all bad. He´s treating slaves like slaves, which is bad from our point of view, but normal in the fantasy people´s realm. He´s arrogant and a loud-mouth, but that´s to be expected from spoiled royality.
He ALSO isn´t afraid of things. He goes around fighting. He cares for his men. He sacrifices them and himself, if necessary for the Empire´s well-being (which is upholding the status quo). And despite being arrogant so many times, he isn´t inherently dumb. He´s smart enough to have realized that his brother would be the better king, that he´s the smarter one. Acknowledging as much is both smart in itself and also surprisingly honest, down to earth. Where I´m going with that: All it takes is to awaken this sort of realization one more time, this time not for his brother, but for Tyuule, and "things could happen".

And about Tyuule not gaining anything: If she can look past her petty revenge schemes, she´d realize that, if the above scenario plays out, there´s a chance for her to become the queen of the most powerful nation in this realm. That she can re-instate her own people as free citizens. The alternative is ultimate peril. Kinda not so good. ;>

Regarding Delilah: I´d bet a lot of money that the JSDF will just give her a slap on the wrist, being all "ah, come on, don´t cry. We understand that you had no choice. Now you realize that what you did was wrong, right? So let´s be friends again :)"

:|

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Regarding Delilah: I´d bet a lot of money that the JSDF will just give her a slap on the wrist, being all "ah, come on, don´t cry. We understand that you had no choice. Now you realize that what you did was wrong, right? So let´s be friends again "

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She is as much of a victim as Yanagida, so why not. She was/is a "spy" working under false orders.

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Originally Posted by MFauli

The alternative is ultimate peril. Kinda not so good. ;>

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There's an endless amount of alternatives. If she manages to get the empire destroyed, there's a good chance most of the bunny people would become free and they could rebuild their country. From the looks of it the former princess wouldn't necessarily be welcome back, but in the end I don't think that's necessarily even what she desires. It's hard to say. It's possible she considers herself extremely dirty after being defiled numerous times by the man she hates the most, so she might be happier dying when she's finished with the revenge.

Another possibility I mention earlier is Pina becoming the ruler and freeing slaves, or some of the slaves, and giving them back their lands. She might very well do it after being influenced by the Japanese so much. She would most likely try to cooperate as much as possible. On the bright side she wouldn't trade invaluable resources for mere glass pearls because she has learned too much after hanging with Itami & Co and even visiting Japan. I have no doubt Tyuule would want to slay Pina as well, though, since she belongs to the same royal family.

All in all the best alternatives would see Zolzal removed from power. He can't very well go around freeing slaves and ceding land because those spoils of war and the human supremacy as the basis of his nature and his militaristic patriotic fame among the population. Zolzal and Tyuule should kill each other and Pina should become the empress. Happy ending for everybody.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

There's an endless amount of alternatives. If she manages to get the empire destroyed, there's a good chance most of the bunny people would become free and they could rebuild their country. From the looks of it the former princess wouldn't necessarily be welcome back, but in the end I don't think that's necessarily even what she desires. It's hard to say. It's possible she considers herself extremely dirty after being defiled numerous times by the man she hates the most, so she might be happier dying when she's finished with the revenge.

Another possibility I mention earlier is Pina becoming the ruler and freeing slaves, or some of the slaves, and giving them back their lands. She might very well do it after being influenced by the Japanese so much. She would most likely try to cooperate as much as possible. On the bright side she wouldn't trade invaluable resources for mere glass pearls because she has learned too much after hanging with Itami & Co and even visiting Japan. I have no doubt Tyuule would want to slay Pina as well, though, since she belongs to the same royal family.

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I don't think there are all that many bunnies left, at least that's the impression I get. They got slaughtered anyway, despite Tyuule surrendering to Zolzal. Even if there were enough to rebuild, Tyuule would try to rule again anyway, stating that she "sacrificed so much" to save her people. Scheming bitch to the end.

Ehh...I think you're giving Pina too much credit. She's actually pretty stupid. Bozes and especially Hamilton (drill forelocks and bobcut headband) seem to be quite a bit more politically aware and shrewd compared to Pina. I'm not saying she'd trade land for beads and plastics, but I don't think she really grasped the economics of scale on her visit to Japan. She was already stunned that the Japanese were willing to take only "mining rights" and freedom from taxes for reparations. The latter being the big one. The aptly-named Hamilton started to realize it though.

Japan can singlehandedly obliterate their economy, while taking away valuable raw materials and securing an enormous agricultural area (two things they're already short on back on Earth). Japan has deliberately set up a very harsh and one-sided tariff system with the Empire and they probably don't even realize it. We've already seen its effect on the PX/Commissary in the town that surround the base.

Pina has always been to focused on honor and not being obliterated to think about the other, far more nefarious things Japan has been doing. The other world is already a colony of Japan, and with Japan having the sole gate, they don't have to compete with any other imperialist rank powers back home.

Pina and her brothers are playing the short game. Japan has been playing the long game since the battle stopped. Their father was at least a little more aware of it.

Pina's intelligence has been mercurial throughout the show. Sometimes she acts retarded, other times she is surprisingly insightful, like when she spoke to that ambassador about the loli.

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Originally Posted by Ryllharu

Pina and her brothers are playing the short game. Japan has been playing the long game since the battle stopped. Their father was at least a little more aware of it.

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Exactly. And being aware or not, Zolzal is the only one opposing Japan´s sneaky plans. In a perfect scenario, Zolzal would have Tyuule investigate Japan, gain intel on just about everything, then go back to negotiation with the JSDF. Now with both parties having somewhat equal intel about each other, proper peace talks can be held. It is then up to the JSDF to respect the cultural differences and build their peace treaty around that. Otherwise, screw them and have Zolzal somehow unite Rory´s sisters and all the magic masters in an attack against the JSDF.

@Kraco: There might be other alternatives, but I´d prefer the one where Zolzal wins.