Naruto Chapter 597

[Marik]

MangaPanda (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/597)

[Y]

Wow it's crazy how Izuna Uchiha/Future Sasuke/Zetsu Madara Clone has such a personal hatred of Kakashi over broken promises from his past.

Muthafuckin Obito in the houuuuuuse.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Muthafuckin Obito in the houuuuuuse.

YEEEE YEEEEE!!!!

[Death BOO Z]

I thought that whar Tobi says to Kakashi is a re-hash of what Kakashi once told Obito, but I can't find the text.
because it seems so misplaced there, why would Tobi (as an enemy) have a right to tell Kakashi to shut up?

[poopdeville]

I remember somebody arguing with me for months because I dared suggest that Tobi=Obito was compatible with the story so far.

Now he's on the bandwagon, and whining about "I told you so's" I haven't even made.

[darkshadow]

I thought that whar Tobi says to Kakashi is a re-hash of what Kakashi once told Obito, but I can't find the text.
because it seems so misplaced there, why would Tobi (as an enemy) have a right to tell Kakashi to shut up?

http://i49.tinypic.com/jpj8cj.jpg

[Assertn]

Well, I suppose Kishimoto could finally have revealed what he's obviously been trollishly masturbating over for the past 4 years or whatever, if only he didn't waste half the chapter explaining what everyone already knew about his jutsu.

[DB_Hunter]

I don't think this proves Tobi is Obito, just that Tobi has Obito's eye.

[Tofu #2]

he called kakashi a hero! :o

[poopdeville]

Tobi's goal isn't about revenge. It's an idealistic goal to bring about world peace by using his Sharingan to control everybody in the world. He basically wants the same thing that Naruto, the "good guy" wants.

That said, Tobi is willing to kill for his goal, whereas Naruto really isn't (except in self-defense, maybe).

On the other hand, Tobi has already won, even if his Moon's Eye plan fails. He rounded up the world's worst ninja criminals and got them all killed. And he started a war that required all the ninja countries to cooperate and even respect each other as peers.

I am vaguely thinking that the current events are the END of the Moon's Eye plan. Remember how strongly Kishimoto used the Moon motif during all the Uchiha massacre sequences? It might have been foreshadowing, or it might have been a reflection of the fact that Tobi was in fact controlling the choices people made, so that the current events might culminate in world peace. If the Uchiha had not been killed off, they would have eventually tried to take on the Senju, perpetuating the rift that lead to the clan system to start in the first place.

[UChessmaster]

I don't think this proves Tobi is Obito, just that Tobi has Obito's eye.

That alone is not enough to prove that Tobi is Obito yes, after all he has 129312938182301 sharingans, BUT, if you add in the fact that he knows a little bit too much about Kakashi... it doesn`t looks too good for that future pakkun = tobi theory i was cooking up.

[Uchiha Barles]

I seem to remember that half of Obito's head got kersplatted under a boulder. I always imagined that meant that the eyeball belong to the half of the skull underneath the boulder also got mashed to oblivion. With Orochimaru's DNA experiments and the loose rules governing death in this manga, I can't put anything past Kishimoto, but I don't see this being explained in a satisfying way.

[TwisT]

It doesn't prove it but the circumstantial evidence is starting to pile up. I wasn't a believer before since it seemed so far fetched. But now everythings pointing towards it. But for those watching/reading One Piece, when the guy that looked like Sanji's wanted poser showed up it was indicated that it was supposed to be someone with a connection to one of the Strawhats. And everyone was speculating on who it could be. Then it turned out to be a whole new character. This could be something like that. Someone that knew Kakashi from before. Maybe even with a connection to Obito. A big brother, father or just friend or rival. But if it's someone already introduced it lean toward Obito. But since people mentioned Sasuke timetraveling (just for giggles i guess) what if Tobi is Kakashi timetraveling.

Many possibility's, but i personally think it's someone that hasn't been introduced. And if it is someone that we know then i must jump on the Obito bandwagon. But i hope not since this all would spit on all that Obito said and stood for. Even though Obito only got a double episode in the anime he became one of the greatest from Leaf IMO. And Kakashi himself changed himself completely because Obito showed him the way.

[Y]

There is literally no possibility except Obito or someone pretending to be Obito after this chapter. He explicitly made reference to events that only Obito would know or care about.

[Prof. Chaos]

I think we're forgetting a fact here. Naruto just received yet another Kyuubi power-up!

[viperwasp]

I seem to remember that half of Obito's head got kersplatted under a boulder. .

The other half of Obtios body under the rock was in the other Dimension!! lol... Overall I'm saying I don't think it's tobi unless were going the whole Aizen route were obito has always been someone else or bad etc... I don't buy it.... Theres no way obito could know the things he does and such unless we go the Aizen route.... This person must have obitos eye or something to that extend though... maybe it involves zetsus and or clones.

I hope it's someone more cleaver then Obito. Pakkun would be amazing!! That other reply someone made me so exciting about that possibility.lol

[DB_Hunter]

If it's Izuna then he would know about Kakashi. Obito doesn't make sense, he saw Kakashi as a friend and his last 'dying' act was to give Kakashi his Sharingan as a token of their friendship and his desire to be helpful. To think that would turn in to such bitterness which would involve Obito going under cover, bringing together the world's worst/most powerful ninjas and obtain control of the Kyuubi due to some irrational childish angst seems unrealistic.

With regards to Naruto's powerup, I don't see how it is remotely useful given Kakashi is the one who holds the key to defeating Taobi with Kamui. With Kamui, a simple kunai would be enough to kill Tobi let alone an uber Kyuubi powered up Naruto.

[UChessmaster]

If it's Izuna then he would know about Kakashi. Obito doesn't make sense, he saw Kakashi as a friend and his last 'dying' act was to give Kakashi his Sharingan as a token of their friendship and his desire to be helpful. To think that would turn in to such bitterness which would involve Obito going under cover, bringing together the world's worst/most powerful ninjas and obtain control of the Kyuubi due to some irrational childish angst seems unrealistic.

There can be about 127381310 events that could have happened AFTER his "death" that changed his views on life.

[Y]

If it's Izuna then he would know about Kakashi.

Izuna Uchiha died decades before Kakashi's father was born.


Obito doesn't make sense, he saw Kakashi as a friend and his last 'dying' act was to give Kakashi his Sharingan as a token of their friendship and his desire to be helpful. To think that would turn in to such bitterness which would involve Obito going under cover, bringing together the world's worst/most powerful ninjas and obtain control of the Kyuubi due to some irrational childish angst seems unrealistic.

Try reading the chapter. He feels that Kakashi broke his dying promise to him by failing to protect Rin.

[DB_Hunter]

Izuna Uchiha died decades before Kakashi's father was born.

We've just had people who died decades ago brought back to life, I would think a bit of BS in Tobi's story and an extended life is within the realms of possibility.


Try reading the chapter. He feels that Kakashi broke his dying promise to him by failing to protect Rin.

We don't know what happened to Rin. We don't even see the Rin's name mentioned in this chapter. We see Kakashi standing in a cemetary, where he could be mourning Obito, Rin, or any other fellow ninja who may have died on a mission with him. Try reading the same chapter as everyone else.

[joker-kun]

You two obviously just solved it. Tobi = Rin with Obito's eye.

[Y]

We've just had people who died decades ago brought back to life, I would think a bit of BS in Tobi's story and an extended life is within the realms of possibility.

You said if it was Izuna Uchiha, he *would* know about Kakashi. But the only character who would know about Kakashi's broken promise is Obito. Kakashi didn't tell Izuna Uchiha about his broken promises offscreen. Tobi isn't speaking generally, as though his words have no personal meaning to Kakashi and he is just shittalking ninjas in general.


We don't know what happened to Rin. We don't even see the Rin's name mentioned in this chapter. We see Kakashi standing in a cemetary, where he could be mourning Obito, Rin, or any other fellow ninja who may have died on a mission with him. Try reading the same chapter as everyone else.

There is only one broken promise Kakashi made to a character in this manga that Tobi could be referencing - his failure to protect his comrades. It isn't a reference to fucking nothing. And it's personal. To be fair, this only rules out everyone except Obito and Rin, but although I haven't watched the Naruto anime I'm confident Tobi has a man's voice, so the hilarious possibility that it's Rin mad over Obito's death and put on the Tobi mask is pretty unlikely unless she grew a penis.

[DB_Hunter]

You said if it was Izuna Uchiha, he *would* know about Kakashi. But the only character who would know about Kakashi's broken promise is Obito. Kakashi didn't tell Izuna Uchiha about his broken promises offscreen.

Yes that's true. I'm assuming if it is Izuna he would have been skulking around in the shadows at the Kannabi bridge, much like how he controlled the Mizukage, to watch the fight. Why would he do this? I don't think Kakashi or Obito/Obito's eye would be important enough to drag someone like Izuna out there. If he was there he would most likely have been gathering intel on Minato as he developed his plan to take control of the Kyuubi from Kushina. Getting Obito's eye could have just been a bonus.



There is only one broken promise Kakashi made to a character in this manga that Tobi could be referencing - his failure to protect his comrades. It isn't a reference to fucking nothing. And it's personal. To be fair, this only rules out everyone except Obito and Rin, but although I haven't watched the Naruto anime I'm confident Tobi has a man's voice, so the hilarious possibility that it's Rin mad over Obito's death and put on the Tobi mask is pretty unlikely unless she grew a penis.

Kakashi changed right after Obito's death. Unless Rin died the very instant Obito did without 'new' Kakashi having the chance to save her from any potential danger, Kakashi would have done his utmost to protect her even it cost him his life. He already gave up his life in the fight against Pein just to zap a nail away from Chouji, there is no way he would not have gone all out to save Rin. So it can't be due to a Rin related grudge. I don't think its Rin, as when we see part of Tobi's face when both with Sasuke in the cave and with Konan during the fight he is a wrinkled man.

It can't be Obito as someone posted a while ago it would be stupid that he managed to recover from his crushing injuries, develop the eye warping technique, obtain knowledge about Kyuubi and the weakest point of a Jinchuuriki's seal and be able to go toe-to-toe with Minato in such a short space of time between the fight at Kannabi bridge and Naruto's birth. Tobi being Obito also doesn't explain how Madara seems to be aware of him.

I'm sticking with Izuna, even though it isn't certain, as I think the eye technique related thing was Izuna harvesting eyes as his own got taken by Madara.

[darkshadow]

Kakashi changed right after Obito's death. Unless Rin died the very instant Obito did without 'new' Kakashi having the chance to save her from any potential danger, Kakashi would have done his utmost to protect her even it cost him his life.

This is true, in fact right after obito died rin and kakashi were ambushed and he told her to run; if minato didn't save them, kakashi would have died protecting her.

[Y]

That's the thing though. Obito was no longer around in person to see how his death had affected Kakashi. He was only seeing things from the outside looking in. He doesn't know, or care, that Kakashi's been friendship no jutsu'd to hell and back by now. All he knows is that Kakashi promised him to save Rin and then ended up crying by her grave. Tobi is trying to create a world where that will never happen again (again, it's very bizarre for Izuna Uchiha, the future time traveling Sasuke, or whatever, to have such a personal interest in making sure Kakashi doesn't have to apologize to graves anymore).

In addition, just think about it for a second in a meta context. Why are Kakashi and Gai here? Kakashi and Gai are like ants in this battle. Kakashi has the dimension attack but he is just about out of juice, and this is a singularly inappropriate fight for Gai considering he can do sweet fuck all. Why did the author bring them here? So they can identify who Tobi is when he takes his mask off. Aside from the absolutely, mindbendingly retarded possibility of Future Sasuke, there's no one behind the mask that Naruto would know, so Kakashi and Gai are there to identify who he is for Naruto, and thus the reader. Now ask yourself this - if it's Izuna Uchiha, how are they going to do that? They have no idea what he looks like. In fact, why would he be wearing a mask? The only reason people know what Madara looks like is because there is a colossal statue of him somewhere. There's no reason for Izuna to hide his face. If it's a Zetsu clone of Madara's chakra or some shit, no one knows what that looks like. So whose face will Kakashi and Gai identify behind the mask? Well, maybe just Kakashi if they wanna play Gai for laughs one more time.


This is true, in fact right after obito died rin and kakashi were ambushed and he told her to run; if minato didn't save them, kakashi would have died protecting her.

Everything is answered by our boy Tobi: "You who are capable of nothing more than unfulfilled promises no longer has any worth or value! Even if you have regrets, it is too late! Reality will continue to callously march forward! You who have always been pragmatic and practical should understand. No promises or hopes will ever come true in this world!"

The promise isn't enough. Changing isn't enough. Regretting your losses isn't enough. As he says, a pragmatic person should understand: people are dead, no matter how noble Kakashi's soul is now or whatever. Reality trumps his convictions, which is why Tobi wants to get rid of reality.

EDIT:

Like I said in IRC this is like when people refused to believe Itachi was a good guy. See, there are huge holes in this theory, because we know Itachi is a mass murderer! What do you mean that's going to be explained after the fact, I'm too dumb to understand the writing of a children's comic book!

[UChessmaster]

I think we're forgetting a fact here. Naruto just received yet another Kyuubi power-up!

He did? i think he used that one before...

[Tofu #2]

He did? i think he used that one before...

yea I thought it was at first too, had to compare the cover page and wiki

[viperwasp]

yea I thought it was at first too, had to compare the cover page and wiki

I'm glad he did not. Powerups are cool... not when they happen all the time. THE MAIN REASON is not because it's impractical or unfair to other characters. NO! It's unfair to Naruto that he would need like 3-5 power ups just to beat one person. His character growth should be more then just a boost in power. His fighting experience, compassion to save him comrades should be more then enough at this point. He is the hero!

Give Naruto some respect Kishimoto. Tactics, persistents, some hard work and luck is what is needed for Naruto to win here. Powerups make it seem like all the hard work was for nothing.

To me there is a differnce between working hard to get stronger, sage mode training, all the fights that have lead up to moment, making friends with Karama! Victory feels fake if you win by just flicking on some instant powerup switch!

[Hitokiri]

I don't think this proves Tobi is Obito, just that Tobi has Obito's eye.

You have a point there, but I still think it's Tobi. It was only because their names look similar back then, but now that he got pissy about Kakashi talking to his grave... I'd bet Kakashi's non Uchiha eye on it.

[Hitokiri]

I think we're forgetting a fact here. Naruto just received yet another Kyuubi power-up!

You mean the kyuubi made trench coat that looks like his Dad's? Maybe it can do magic tricks like this guy's cape.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSl3IKwnKEd3wV8ZFZOvAlEbBarWWr7x ZVoI3fPySuD5yQhlyux

[b1gdawg]

Wow it's crazy how Izuna Uchiha/Future Sasuke/Zetsu Madara Clone has such a personal hatred of Kakashi over broken promises from his past.

Muthafuckin Obito in the houuuuuuse.

So u honestly think Kishi would make it sooooooo obvious before revealing Tobi? He made us wait 5 years, but it's that simple.

Please, explain how Obito got Hashirama's DNA, explain how Obito was able to fight Minato, control the Kyuubi. The nine tails attacked Konoha Soon after the war. And Please, I beg you to explain how Tobi/Obito survived that rock slide when half his body was already crushed, missing an eye, and probably no vision in his other eye.

And since he has such a "Hatred" for kakashi, why hasn't he attacked him before? He's confronted him several times, but never attacked him, but now all of a sudden you say he hates him. When did this hatred come alive?

[UChessmaster]

Please, explain how Obito got Hashirama's DNA

Digging his grave, seems like a simple task in this universe apparently.


Explain how Obito was able to fight Minato

By using Kamui.


control the Kyuubi.The nine tails attacked Konoha Soon after the war.

Sharingan can tame tailed beasts. He has a sharingan.


And Please, I beg you to explain how Tobi/Obito survived that rock slide when half his body was already crushed, missing an eye, and probably no vision in his other eye.

Kakashi survived getting killed, Obito can survive a rock.

[Sidnne]

So u honestly think Kishi would make it sooooooo obvious before revealing Tobi?

Yes. It's called foreshadowing. That's what authors do. They don't drop false hints to trick the readers into thinking in a different direction, and then say "haha, did you really think I would make it that obvious!?"


Please, explain how Obito got Hashirama's DNA,
Probably the same way Kabuto got the DNA of all those people he resurrected.


explain how Obito was able to fight Minato,
We saw how. He used his mangekyou. All he did was phase in and out of dimensions to avoid being hit by Minato. It's not like he had some great power that put him on par with Minato.


And Please, I beg you to explain how Tobi/Obito survived that rock slide when half his body was already crushed
That's easy. His mangekyou awakened while he was under the rock and he phased out of it.


And since he has such a "Hatred" for kakashi, why hasn't he attacked him before? He's confronted him several times, but never attacked him, but now all of a sudden you say he hates him. When did this hatred come alive?

Does Tobi seem like the type that loses control to anger or hatred and attacks people? He is a slow, deliberate schemer, and prefers to have everything and everyone fall into his plans.


Now, while we're all sitting around explaining things, why don't you explain to us why it bothers you so much and why you get so upset every time someone mentions Obito.

[UChessmaster]

Now, while we're all sitting around explaining things, why don't you explain to us why it bothers you so much and why you get so upset every time someone mentions Obito.

b1gdawg is Obito, that`s why.

[Death BOO Z]

the answer to all of those questions: Payne helped him, or Zetsu.

the only thing we know is that he didn't have Mangekyou sharingan until three years ago.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

And Please, I beg you to explain how Tobi/Obito survived that rock slide when half his body was already crushed, missing an eye, and probably no vision in his other eye.


Well if they are in fact one in the same, there's not much to explain in regards to how he would have survived the rock. He must have activated his other eye's mangekyou or whatever allows them to use Kamui and then he just phased thru the rock that had been crushing him. What I'm wondering is who helped him to survive afterward.... did he warp himself into that weird pillar dimension just out of activating it and was someone there that helped him to survive his wounds?

[Tofu #2]

the answer to all of those questions: Payne helped him, or Zetsu.

the only thing we know is that he didn't have Mangekyou sharingan until three years ago.

tobi has yet to be seen with mangekyou

[DB_Hunter]

tobi has yet to be seen with mangekyou

A very good point.

[Sidnne]

tobi has yet to be seen with mangekyou

Kishi just hasn't shown a close-up of the eye while in Mangekyou form. If he had, then it would be a dead give away that it is Obito, since it would be identical to what Kakashi's looks like.

[Tofu #2]

Ok.... aside from the jump to conclusion, you're right, my point would have had a bigger impact if we still thought he was Madara.

Do you guys remember that time, when tobi said he was just a shell of his former self? Obito wasn't shit so I find it hard to believe Current tobi < obito
You guys keep saying the hints are obvious it's obito, but IMO like I said they're all red herrings.

One piece spoiler ------------------> like we were led to believe Luffy & Ace were real brothers and ace was the son of dragon

Anyways, I'm not gonna discuss this anymore. Only 1 or 2 more chapters till it's revealed.

[UChessmaster]

I think it was Itachi the one that said that. And by a shell it could imply some sort of desfiguation... that would in exchange... you know, make him wear a mask.

[b1gdawg]

Lol okay so his Mangekyou Sharingan activated when it was crushed by a rock slide. Then soon after he went to attack Konoha because he hated the village so much, then came back again 10 years later because he had a new found hatred for the Uchiha clan, that makes so much sense.

[UChessmaster]

Did you even read the new chapter...?

[Death BOO Z]

he got crushed by the rock, but was then rescued by some uchiha bastard that thought that having a unknown sharingan user could benefit the clan in it's upcoming revolt. they planned to have the kyubi destroy the village and then take over. but things got fucked up and the 4th defeated obito, and the clan didn't stand besides him and left him to supposedly die. again. at this time, he encounters Payne\Negato. he learns of their ideas to use the juubi and decides to shadow them. later on, he conspires with Itachi to kill the uchiha clan, as he still holds a grudge against them for abandoning him in the fight against the 4th.
jump forward, during the timeskip, Obito manages to awaken his m.Sharingan (which awakens the sharingan in Kakashi as well) and he starts to set the bijuu plan in motion, by manipulating Payne.

something else happens then, and we reach the current situation.

[b1gdawg]

he got crushed by the rock, but was then rescued by some uchiha bastard that thought that having a unknown sharingan user could benefit the clan in it's upcoming revolt. they planned to have the kyubi destroy the village and then take over. but things got fucked up and the 4th defeated obito, and the clan didn't stand besides him and left him to supposedly die. again. at this time, he encounters Payne\Negato. he learns of their ideas to use the juubi and decides to shadow them. later on, he conspires with Itachi to kill the uchiha clan, as he still holds a grudge against them for abandoning him in the fight against the 4th.
jump forward, during the timeskip, Obito manages to awaken his m.Sharingan (which awakens the sharingan in Kakashi as well) and he starts to set the bijuu plan in motion, by manipulating Payne.

something else happens then, and we reach the current situation.
Name-calling deleted - Buff.

If Tobi is the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, how does Madara know him? Once Madara was revived by Kabuto, "I't seems that brat Nagato has grown". Why would Obito attack Konoha? What did Konoha do to him that made him want revenge? How did he grow so much in 2-5 years to be able control the Kyuubi thentake on his teacher? How was he saved, he was killed in the rock slide. Dead once the Rock Ninja arrived there and used that Jutsu. It's not Obito, idk why u people want it to be Obito.

[Death BOO Z]

Leaving most of what you said aside (as I don't remember all the exact details for the Tobi-Madare-Payne triangle)... why do you think it's impossible that Obito managed to power up in four years?
Naruto turned from super loser to super hero in the same course of time. and that includes the three years time-skip that he wasted on not getting stronger. Obito was from the uchiha clan, who always grow stronger faster than others, so four years might be enough time to go from awakening the sharingan (say, Sasuke against Haku) to fighting the hokage equally (say... Sasuke vs the kage summit?).

do we even know for sure how long has it been between Kakashi's gaiden and the attack on the village? how old is Kakashi?

[UChessmaster]

Don`t bother, he`s not going to answer that what his problem with Tobi = Obito is.