Hollow Terms and Names

[Munsu]

So far we know that Kubo Tite has been using foreign names and terms, mostly of latin origin, to name Hollow characters and the likes. So I thought it would be productive to try and figure out for ourselves what should be the intended terms and names since there are multiple possibilites. I don't know if there are any official spelligs out there, so if you have them please provide them. I'll start with a couple of character names and see where this leads.

Also, be careful of spoilers, I don't want any on this thread.

Ulquiorra:

Ulquiorra seems to be the most popular spelling of this character, but I don't think that's the spelling Kubo intended. The romaji of the name is Urukiora, so my best guess is that the name should be Urquiola. If you google Urquiola you might see that there's an oil-tanker by that name that caused an oil spill near the coast of Spain. Also, there seems to be a some designer called Patricia Urquiola, so at least we know that name exist in the real world.

Vaizard:

People seem to like that spelling. The romaji for the term is Vaizaado, and I think that the intended term is "Visored", deriving from the word "visor". These characters wear masks, much like the visors that exist in different type of helmets. There's also Vizard, which seems to be an archaic for of visor or mask. So in any case, I'd say Visored or Vizard should be the inteded spellings.

Arrancar:

I think that's the correct way for spelling it, it pretty much means "to tear off".

Edorad:

Romaji is how you see it spelled, but my guess is that it should've been Eduardo. If left as Edorad, maybe the intended name/term is "El Dorado" which can mean "The Golden", also worth mentioning that there's a fish called dorado which you guys should know it as mahi-mahi. Still, I believe that the name should be Eduardo.


I'm sure there are other terms and names that might be controvertial, so please bring them up if you find any. Also, let me know what you think of the ones I've already mentioned.

[XanBcoo]

I'm smacking myself because I totally missed the "Arrancar" meaning. It didn't even occur to me that it could have been a Spanish word. I just assumed Kubo had made it up.

Properly translating Romanizations has always been a bitch. Good idea, Bud.

[RyougaZell]

I've always laughed at Kubo's name of Menos Grande.

Menos Grande

The first of this kind we saw was humongous. Menos is less in spanish, while Grande is Big, also in spanish. So the name of this guys is "The Less Big" or "The Smaller" if we try to make it sound right.

Hueco Mundo

The 'Empty World'. Hueco can also be used for Hollow. Hollow World. Nice way of playing with words.

There are other few terms I would like to discuss, but since they haven't aired on the anime I will refrain. This a thread worth visting as the story keeps progressing.

Arrancar

Bud already spoke about this one, so I'll just add my two cents about it.
Arrancar... to tear-off. An excellent way to define Hollow who have teared off their masks. Thumbs-up for Kubo.

Oh yeah... I still love seeing when Chado/Sado presents his medallion to Ichigo. Mexican coin with our Eagle emblem and everything :D

EDIT:

Vasto Lorde (or whatever you spell it)

Vasto Lorde... Vastolorde... Vastardo... Bastardo... Bastard.
Dunno where could it come from. But before Dattebayo used the term Vasto Lorde I thought this category was 'Bastard'

[bagandscalpel]

I've always laughed at Kubo's name of Menos Grande.

Menos Grande

The first of this kind we saw was humongous. Menos is less in spanish, while Grande is Big, also in spanish. So the name of this guys is "The Less Big" or "The Smaller" if we try to make it sound right.
Actually, as pointed out to me by Xanbcoo in a conversation we had recently, "Menos Grande" would be more appropriately translated as "Great Minuses," for obvious reasons.

[Munsu]

Vasto Lorde is apparently Vast Lord in Portuguese.

And I'd also say that if you don't apply the literary meaning to "Menos" and just consider it a name, then when used with "Grande" it'll mean "Big Menos", and I think that's the intention. And as bagand said, Grande is often used as "Great"... Just as Alexander the Great is known as "Alejandro el Grande". So any of those uses should be acceptable.

[RyougaZell]

bagandscalpel: That one I do not agree too. Great Minuses would be "Los Grandes Menores" and not "Menos Grande".

PS: Just reminding whoever doesn't know... Im Mexican.


EDIT:

Bud: your explanation came after I posted my own post. And that way is more convincing. I mean, it makes bagandscalpel's more convincing.


Vast Lord is portuguese? Now that one is one I didn't know. Its meaning then would be?

[Munsu]

Menos can mean minus too, depending on the context.

Like 2-1 = two minus one = dos menos uno

[Meteros]

aren't intended spellings of most of the main arrancar spelled out on some of the manga covers?

[XanBcoo]

bagandscalpel: That one I do not agree too. Great Minuses would be "Los Grandes Menores" and not "Menos Grande".

PS: Just reminding whoever doesn't know... Im Mexican.


EDIT:

Bud: your explanation came after I posted my own post. And that way is more convincing. I mean, it makes bagandscalpel's more convincing.


Vast Lord is portuguese? Now that one is one I didn't know. Its meaning then would be?
To clarify, I had actually used the term "big Minus" when I was talking to bagandscalpel. One of the things I had to hammer into my head about Spanish was the difference between "Gran" and "Grande" (the difference here being "Un menos grande" as opposed to "un gran menos"). Since "Minus" is the opposite of "Plus" (or good spirits, in the Bleach universe) I think that it makes perfect sense.

Originally, like you Ryouga, I also thought Menos Grande meant "less big" until I actually sat down and thought about it.

I wonder what Chad thinks of all these Spanish terms being thrown around.

[Munsu]

Vast Lord is portuguese? Now that one is one I didn't know. Its meaning then would be?

Vasto Lorde is apparently Portuguese, and it means Vast Lord.

And what it means? well vast means very great in degree or intensity, for example, "vast skills". So this means that these are Lords like no other, of great strength etc...

[dsparil]

I'm from the Dominican Republic (Spanish speaking country in the Caribbean), so I'll try to clarify the meaning of Menos Grande.

Menos usually means less, minus and/or negative; however, it can also mean lesser or inferior depending on the context used.
Grande usually means big, but can also be referred to as giant depending on the context.

As a Bleach viewer and fan, I believe the best way to translate Menos Grande into English would be "Lesser Giants". The reasoning for this translation is that the Gillians are inferior compared to all the other Menos, and they are giant in comparison to them as well.

With that said, The Hollow group that are classified as Menos refers to the meaning of less or negative(as other Spanish speakers on this forum has mentioned); thus Menos Grande is also a play on words.

If I confused you, please let me know, and I'll try to clear it up.

[XanBcoo]

I'm from the Dominican Republic (Spanish speaking country in the Caribbean), so I'll try to clarify the meaning of Menos Grande.

Menos usually means less, minus and/or negative; however, it can also mean lesser or inferior depending on the context used.
Grande usually means big, but can also be referred to as giant depending on the context.

As a Bleach viewer and fan, I believe the best way to translate Menos Grande into English would be "Lesser Giants". The reasoning for this translation is that the Gillians are inferior compared to all the other Menos, and they are giant in comparison to them as well.

With that said, The Hollow group that are classified as Menos refers to the meaning of less or negative(as other Spanish speakers on this forum has mentioned); thus Menos Grande is also a play on words.

If I confused you, please let me know, and I'll try to clear it up.
I think it's more logical to assume that Menos Grande means "Big Minus" (Big Hollow) since by the time they were introduced, Kubo Tite probably hadn't thought up the idea of Vasto Lordes and Adjuchases. Though you could be right, I don't think Kubo had the foresight to name them in such a way.

Also, I think "Menos Grande" seems to be a blanket term for all classifications of Menos, and not just Gillians. Or am I wrong? I haven't really watched Bleach in a while.

[dsparil]

I think it's more logical to assume that Menos Grande means "Big Minus" (Big Hollow) since by the time they were introduced, Kubo Tite probably hadn't thought up the idea of Vasto Lordes and Adjuchases. Though you could be right, I don't think Kubo had the foresight to name them in such a way.

Also, I think "Menos Grande" seems to be a blanket term for all classifications of Menos, and not just Gillians. Or am I wrong? I haven't really watched Bleach in a while.


If what you say is true, the translation would be "Great Minus" and not "Big Minus" because there is nothing big about the other Menos. (Grande can also mean "Great", it slipped my mind)

For example:
Ese hombre se ha hecho grande.
That man has made himself great.

Note: Like you said, he probably didn't have the foresight of the new Menos at the time, so he could have meant "Big Minus" at the beginning, but now means "Great Minus" after introducing the new types.

I bet fansubbers run into many debates like this when subbing from Japanese to English. I guess this is only a little taste. Hahahhahajajajaja

[Harima Kenji]

After a little search on google, I found that Espada (The highest of the arrancar) is some sort of fish from Madeira. I couldn't find anything else besides recipies, so I'm not sure if there is a connection at all. The fish does look quite vicious...

[Kraco]

I couldn't find anything else besides recipies...

Well, at least Ichigo & co don't anymore need to ponder what to do with the bodies left behind when the fight is finally over. Assuming, of course, they are good enough recipes.

[XanBcoo]

If what you say is true, the translation would be "Great Minus" and not "Big Minus" because there is nothing big about the other Menos. (Grande can also mean "Great", it slipped my mind)

For example:
Ese hombre se ha hecho grande.
That man has made himself great.

Man, you didn't even read the thread, did you? RyougaZell (and I) already dismissed this translation. "Great" when used as an adjective in Spanish is usually placed in front of the verb in the form of "Gran" or in the plural form of "Grandes". It doesn't make sense the way you're trying to translate it.

I'm pretty certain "Menos Grande" translates to "Big Minus".

Edit: Also "Espada" means "Sword".

[animus]

The positioning of the words could just be a total error on Kubo's part. He's not the most able planner after all.

[Munsu]

After a little search on google, I found that Espada (The highest of the arrancar) is some sort of fish from Madeira. I couldn't find anything else besides recipies, so I'm not sure if there is a connection at all. The fish does look quite vicious...
I'm pretty sure he means to use it as "sword". You never use "espada" alone to refer to the fish, you say "pez espada" just as you would say swordfish.

You guys also need to put into context of when "Menos Grande" was introduced. I'm sure Kubo didn't plan the Arrancar arc when he introduced that name. When he introduced the name, all the Menos Grande appeared as giants, so you can't disprove that the intent was for it to mean "big" just because now recently we've been introduced with human sized menos.

And as animus said, Kubo probably doesn't have command over the language, so we have to be careful about disproving intended meanings just because of wrong syntax used.

[dsparil]

Man, you didn't even read the thread, did you? RyougaZell (and I) already dismissed this translation. "Great" when used as an adjective in Spanish is usually placed in front of the verb in the form of "Gran" or in the plural form of "Grandes". It doesn't make sense the way you're trying to translate it.

I'm pretty certain "Menos Grande" translates to "Big Minus".

Edit: Also "Espada" means "Sword".

Teh internet is serious business!

RyougaZell and you dismissed "Great Minus" because of grammar, but I'm dismissing "Big Minus" because of definition. The other two Menos are not big in the sense of size, so calling them that is illogical.

Whether he had a different meaning for the Menos Grande at the begining doesn't mean that it holds the same meaning today. Otherwise, the term Menos Grande should only apply to the Gillians if he wants to keep the original meaning intact

Translation is a complicated issue, and that is why no one's translation will ever be perfect. You can especially see big debates with the different translations of the Bible(no intention of bringing religion into this). The only one who knows who has the right translation is the creator of Bleach and no one else.

[animus]

People are also dismissing the fact that their arguements are based on direction transliteration of words from Spanish to English. Whereas in Kubo's mind it would be from Japanese to Spanish, or Spanish to Japanese. These definitions are quite subjective, especially when you're arguing using a language that the author did intend to be used for.

[masamuneehs]

to dris
good attempt at justifying your logic.

however, i'm still rather sure that the word itself, "Grande", connotating both the terms 'grand' and 'large/immense' manages to work WHICHEVER way people decide to translate it as. i think of it as meaning 'Great Minus' for Espada members, and 'Big/Huge Minus' for lesser Gillians of larger physical size.

the mangaka's original intent is almost washed by the fact that he designed 'Menos' with small physical frames, (yet huge Reiatsu/power), but the original definition of a Menos Grande does not become any less true. Did any of the Soul Society people even know of the existance of Espade type Hollows before learning from Aizen's Arrancar? If so, it makes sense that the term 'Menos Grande' could simply be decoded to signifying 'A big/nasty Hollow', as far as SS is concerned, capturing the giant Gillians and the compact Espada.

that's why semantics is an art and not a science.

[XanBcoo]

Teh internet is serious business!

RyougaZell and you dismissed "Great Minus" because of grammar, but I'm dismissing "Big Minus" because of definition.
You're defining the term backwards. I still stand by my reasoning that "Grande" doesn't actually mean "great" even if Tite Kubo isn't a master at Spanish. Whatever though, look at it the way you want to. Overall, the meaning and intent is reasonably clear.

[Munsu]

I'm inclined to think that "Menos Grande" is only used to reffer to the Gillian type of Menos. Menos Grande seems to be used to identify a unique class among the Menos, the Gillians, in SS... else they could've simpy use Menos, no need for Kubo to add the Grande portion to identify them if the term characterizes all types of Menos.

That aside, the Kanji used for Menos Grande is 大虚 (dai kyo), which means Big Emptiness. So there you go, now we can put to rest the intended meaning.

[XanBcoo]

"Emptiness" as in... "Hollow"?

Pretty bizarre how Kubo uses the Spanish word "Hueco" (literally "Hollow") to refer to Hueco Mundo, the Hollow world, but decided to use the word "Menos" ("Minus"), the opposite of Plus (the good spirits), as a translation for Hollows, the monsters. Perhaps it's because Menoses, after all, are separate beings from your run-of-the-mill Hollow.

Or I guess "Menos Mundo" just sounded a bit too silly for his tastes...

[Munsu]

Yes, emptiness as in hollow, same kanji is used.

He doesn't use Menos as a translation for Hollows, that's simply the meaning of the kanji. Menos are a type of Hollow. You have to seperate the meaning of the names and acknowledge that they are just that, names... just like I'm Munsu and you're XanBcoo regardless of the meanings the names have.

So, Menos Grande doesn't really mean "Big Minus" or "Big Hollow" for that matter in the world of Bleach... it means just a "Big Menos" hence why I'm inclined to believe that it is only used for the Gillian-class, the biggest among the Menos-type hollows.

Basically we have a bunch of terms that share the same meaning, yet reffer to different things, but in Bleach they don't substitute each other.

[XanBcoo]

Right, I understood all that, I was just making the connection between the Spanish words he used and the Kanji used, all 3 roughly referring to the same concept. It was a half-hearted attempt at a joke :p.

So out of curiosity, if he uses the Kanji for "Hollow" to refer to Menoses, what's the Kanji he uses for lesser/common Hollows?

[Munsu]

Yeah I figured after I had posted, and revised my post a bit to reflect what you meant, but I had already written all that so kept most of it.

I think they use the same Kanji. I haven't found the Kanji for when "Menos" is used alone, but the Kanji used for the menos portion in "Menos Grande" is the same as the one used for "Hollow". This is all a mess.

[dsparil]

You're defining the term backwards. I still stand by my reasoning that "Grande" doesn't actually mean "great" even if Tite Kubo isn't a master at Spanish. Whatever though, look at it the way you want to. Overall, the meaning and intent is reasonably clear.

I'm defining the terms backwards for the same reason you say "red car" and not "car red". I understand that the original intent meant big, and I'm not saying that you are wrong either, but after the story developed further, there might be a new intent attached to it.


Yeah I figured after I had posted, and revised my post a bit to reflect what you meant, but I had already written all that so kept most of it.

I think they use the same Kanji. I haven't found the Kanji for when "Menos" is used alone, but the Kanji used for the menos portion in "Menos Grande" is the same as the one used for "Hollow". This is all a mess.

Do you think he will ever be interviewed to clarify these questions?

[Munsu]

No, no need. It's actually very clear and simple, you simply need to have an understanding of Japanese and it's alphabets to get the whole picture. I'm pretty sure that if you get the raw manga, you would see the terms written in Katakana with an underscript or something with the kanji of the intended meaning, or something along those lines.

If someone can hunt down a raw page from the manga were Menos Grande is mentioned, it should all become more clear.

[Mizuchi]

Espada means "Sword" in spanish.

Why does Tito or w.e use spanish and random times when referring to hollow things. Like those low class arrancar (also a spanish term) numbered themselves in spanish. I mean if this was real japanese world and the arrancar talking in japanese, and all the sudden he says a spanish number, wouldn't ichigo and friends just be like, wtf y dont u just count in japanese.

[Munsu]

Why does he do it? Because he can. This is not solely set in "real Japanese" world.

[Kraco]

It's not like this was the first anime ever to use foreign elements of an arbitrary kind. Anime series are filled with random English (or should I say Engrish) terminology, or German, so why not Spanish as well?

They sound cool. That's reason enough. I don't know how they sound like to native Spanish speakers, but I bet for the Japanese people they are exotic and nice sounding. And as a Finnish speaker I gladly agree.

[Southpaw+extra]

On Menos Grande, I believe it means "The Smallest"


I'm currently in my second semester of Spanish, and I just came across a section on superlatives. These are defined by dictionary.com as:

"2. Grammar. of, pertaining to, or noting the highest degree of the comparison of adjectives and adverbs, as smallest, best, and most carefully, the superlative forms of small, good, and carefully."

(accent marks will be left off due to technical reasons)

Examples straight out of my college text book are "Es el cafe mas rico del pais." Which is "It's the most delicious coffee in the country"

("Rico" in this context of food is "delicious" and "mas" is "the most")

"Es el menu menos caro de todos estos" or "It is the least expensive menu of all of these"

"Menos" is "the least" in this context.


If we change the adjective "caro" to something like "grande" it should look like this:
"Es el menu menos grande de todos estos" it would then become "It is the smallest menu of all of these.
---

And that is how I came to believe they are the smallest. If I remember correctly, the Menos Grande are also the weakest of their class, so it might "the weakest" at the same time at poking fun at it's size, though this is based on nothing more than my own (course unrelated) conjecture.

Any thoughts?

[RyougaZell]

Gramatically, yes.
Bleach directed? Dunno.

Like Munsu and Xanbcoo said several months ago... the intended meaning used by Kubo may be another.

Like engrish... maybe he tried saying something and ended with something else just because it sound cool.

Anyway... a term I liked in the manga, but was ignored in the anime, was a surname given to Luppi.

During one of the chapters where he fought Hitsugaya, before Grimmjow killed him, the 'cover' art referred to Luppi as 'El Violador' - the rapist -

I wonder if Luppi while human was a rapist... and then got -trepadora- as a 'hollow release' lol... tentacles... heheh.

[masamuneehs]

also, on Southpaw's argument, if "Menos" is to mean "Minus", then it once again because "Large / Big Minus"... but you do have a point there.

i think we're all overthinking this. i doubt Kubo knows Spanish so well that his terms make grammatical sense

[UChessmaster]

If we change the adjective "caro" to something like "grande" it should look like this:
"Es el menu menos grande de todos estos" it would then become "It is the smallest menu of all of these.

Except that if you want to say smallest in spanish MAS PEQUEÑO would be the most aporpiated way. Es el menu menos grande de todos estos just... doesnt sounds right

[XanBcoo]

On Menos Grande, I believe it means "The Smallest"


I'm currently in my second semester of Spanish, and I just came across a section on superlatives. These are defined by dictionary.com as:

"2. Grammar. of, pertaining to, or noting the highest degree of the comparison of adjectives and adverbs, as smallest, best, and most carefully, the superlative forms of small, good, and carefully."

(accent marks will be left off due to technical reasons)

Examples straight out of my college text book are "Es el cafe mas rico del pais." Which is "It's the most delicious coffee in the country"

("Rico" in this context of food is "delicious" and "mas" is "the most")

"Es el menu menos caro de todos estos" or "It is the least expensive menu of all of these"

"Menos" is "the least" in this context.


If we change the adjective "caro" to something like "grande" it should look like this:
"Es el menu menos grande de todos estos" it would then become "It is the smallest menu of all of these.
---

And that is how I came to believe they are the smallest. If I remember correctly, the Menos Grande are also the weakest of their class, so it might "the weakest" at the same time at poking fun at it's size, though this is based on nothing more than my own (course unrelated) conjecture.

Any thoughts?

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7803/morbolv7.jpg
SPANISH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY

[The Heretic Azazel]

Hey, the guy has six whole weeks of Spanish education, who are you to doubt him?

[RyougaZell]

I love how previous posts here ignore the fact that Spanish is my first language :D

Recently Chad/Sado used a technique in the anime called 'El Gigante' which translates to the 'The Giant'. Once again I am marveled with the fucked up translation used by dattebayo... (which for the record I don't remember currently, but it wasn't The Giant)

[Yukimura]

I believe Chad said El Directo and DB wrote in "The Giant". It only takes a babelfish run to know that that isn't right.

[RyougaZell]

Oh yeah... I messed them up... didn't had the ep with me when I posted that. My bad.

[Munsu]

I haven't been watching Bleach anime as of late, what episode is this?

[Yukimura]

If you mean the El Directo comment I believe that happened in 144, but it may have been 143.