some info about copyrights

[drunkgohan]

I thought I would take a moment to explain something about copyrights that I learned from a lawyer I know--I think it's very useful information for people interested in fansubbing. Note that my lawyer friend had to dumb this down for me so I'm not claiming to be an expert here.

People frequently complain about how companies enforcing their copyrights are jerks, bullying the little guy, not seeing the big picture, etc. Although I think the music industry in particular has taken it too far, in general my understanding is that companies must defend their copyrights otherwise they can permanently lose them. In other words, in a copyright lawsuit, if it is shown that a company knew about copyright infringement and did nothing to stop it then the courts may deem that they were implicitly releasing the works in question to the public domain. So their copyright would become null and void, opening the door for anyone and everyone to copy their stuff at will.

So the moral to the story is that even if Viz or ShoPro doesn't mind continued fansubbing of Naruto, or they understand that it's beneficial to them and helps to create evangelists for their series, if they are made aware of potential infringement they have no choice but to pursue the matter. So the trick is to keep a low profile and avoid doing things like emailing ShoPro and saying "hey is it okay for us to continue fansubbing this?" The other moral to the story is not to blame Viz/ShoPro if they need to shut this stuff down--they really have no choice.

One friend suggested that licensors should sublicense their properties to fansubbers for a token amount, like $1/year, so the fansubbers are completely legit. There are arguments for and against that, but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. licensors of an anime or manga probably don't have the authority to sublicense the work in that way. Licensing agreements can be really complex and there are a million roadblocks to something like that.

drunkgohan
law nerd (apparently)

Moved to more appropriate forum.

GotWoot Moderator

[Haku no Fuyu]

Aw man. I was about to post this....not really. But kudos on this, I was looking it up earlier (thinking of subbing)

[Rynoa]

the thing is that if it weren't for subbers... (manga or anime) would you know Naruto outside Japan? Not very easily [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[DarthEnderX]

Probably, it'd still be in Shonen Jump, which is pretty popular here.

[jing]

I wouldn't know Naruto if it weren't for the subbers, that's for sure. It would be just another anime on the shelf that i would never buy. I don't read american Shonen Jump, it's translated pretty shitty.

[NM]

I actually got to know Naruto through one chapter that was in Shonen Jump. It was the chapter where Naruto and Sasuke went up against just Zabuza to release Kakashi from the water prison. I brought it to school next day and my friend asked me if I was following the anime and at the time, I didn't know about BitTorrent so I said no and he told me about GotWoot and BT and all that. And after reading/downloading the manga, Inane's translations are way better than Shonen Jump's "art of the doppelganger" and "the Journeyman test"

[greateachermin]

i've watch anime eversince i dont remember
but without fansubbers subbing naruto or other series, i doubt that i will take a look at it or get into it as much as i do now. Its true that many people will have heard or watch naruto, but with fansubbers, there are hundreds of thousands of people who will watch them. So comparing a few hundred fans to hundred of thousands of fans. Fansubbing is worth every effort that is put into it.
kudos to aone

[complich8]

Originally posted by: drunkgohan
One friend suggested that licensors should sublicense their properties to fansubbers for a token amount, like $1/year, so the fansubbers are completely legit. There are arguments for and against that, but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. licensors of an anime or manga probably don't have the authority to sublicense the work in that way. Licensing agreements can be really complex and there are a million roadblocks to something like that.

My understanding of things is that ShoPro is a "master licensor". That means they bought the right to resell the rights to whomever they want under whatever terms they deem fair.

But I don't think they'll pursue a "sublicense to fansubbers" approach. Basically that'd legitimize fansubs as an alternative to legitimate means like watching on TV (which gets them royalties) and dvd (which obviously gets them lots of money too).

If ShoPro really wanted to, they could probably give it away free. But that'd be a bad business move, seeing how this series is going to be the biggest cash-cow to hit the markets since DBZ, if not ever. There's going to be scads of merchandising, there's going to be soundtrack releases, there's going to be probably a 70+ volume dvd set by the time the series is all said and done. No company ever bought a series like this to give away half the rights of it to some jerks on the internet, and in the current environment they probably never will.

So the whole discussion is hypothetical anyway. Businesses have the explicit goal of making money. That's all there is to it.

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the "actively defending" thing is actually more relevant to trademarks. If you let a trademark become generic, you can lose it, but copyright works differently. Just because someone steals something from you and you're aware of it doesn't mean you don't get to legally keep the rights to it. The problem is that businesses are trying to push copyright, patents, trademarks, and trade secrets all into the same "Intellectual Property" barrel, so they can try to blur the lines, confuse the judiciary, and make us all think that they're all the same thing.

[bob64]

Heres another idea...

Companies that license the anime could release untranslated (raw) episodes for a cheaper price then translated ones (like around 5 bucks per dvd). And give fansubbers permission to release "soft" subtitles for use in the video players.

Fansubbers get to continue subbing.
Hard core demanding fans get the elite translations while paying a shitload less.
Casual viewers get a choice.
Companies still get their money when they sell the dubbed/untranslated dvds and stuff.
Isp's are happier from less bandwidth useage (soft subtitles are rarely more the 100kb)


Interesting concept idea no?

[complich8]

cute concept, bob ...

problems being: (1) most standalone players don't support external subtitles at all, (2) most software players don't support external subs (no software dvd player that I know of), meaning the companies would be essentially forcing you to rip the dvd to tack subs on it.

You might or might not be aware of this, but generally (and not 100% of the time, but in general) the quality of translation of r1 dvd releases is a notch above the halfhearted amateur attempts we see in the fansub world all the time. Sure, some groups are great, but when a dvd company takes its time, translates from original scripts, with professional translators, with access to the original creators, etc... they have a definite recipe for a better average quality point than we can hope to hit.

I don't think the dvd sellers will buy into the idea, either. Think of all the confused people going back to bestbuy returning their dvd, and bitching out the managers for not having the dub they want to buy, and just having this unsubbed undubbed dvd. On top of that, think how that'd piss off the japanese companies ... making dvds even cheaper to reverse import. They already complain about how R1 prices are so low the reverse importing phenomenon is causing them to lose money on dvd sales.

In order to agree to let the licensor have those terms, or if those terms were commonplace, the license fees would be jacked up to compensate for the massive increase in reverse imports. R1 companies would license less, because of increased fees and decreased profits (wholesaleing dvds at cost to preserve retailer profits, and selling dvds that say "rip me and redistribute me, I'm begging you" on the front tends not to be healthy for the old profit margins). Meanwhile they authorize potentially lower quality translations, and essentially waive their legal recourse against any substantial infringement.

So, R1 companies screw themselves into more expensive licenses, lower profit margins on the stuff they sell, thus they license less, and the whole anime dvd economy essentially loses its bones, and ends up a pile of goo on the floor.

No ... I think this is a bad idea.

[Assertn]

yeah, but on the other hand, my roommate can encode videos with less artifacts than what you'd see on pioneer's average Trigun episode

[complich8]

that's hardly a fair example, trigun is like 7 years old.

Sure, you can complain about how trigun's dvds aren't great. But that's like complaining about how your 1978 buick doesn't have good aerodynamics. Or how the first dvd edition of stargate looks like ass and has no menu to speak of. It's true, they suck, but it doesn't mean that dvds released 4 years ago are state-of-the-art, by any means.

With the tools that have come out since then, any blithering idiot who can take a good video stream and point the right tool at it can get a good output stream, but the fact is those tools weren't mature when the average trigun dvd was authored.

[drunkgohan]

Originally posted by: complich8
My understanding of things is that ShoPro is a "master licensor". That means they bought the right to resell the rights to whomever they want under whatever terms they deem fair.

Since they've already announced the merger with Viz it seems pretty clear Viz will be producing Naruto for the U.S.--just a matter of time until it's announced I would guess.

Originally posted by: complich8
But I don't think they'll pursue a "sublicense to fansubbers" approach. Basically that'd legitimize fansubs as an alternative to legitimate means like watching on TV (which gets them royalties) and dvd (which obviously gets them lots of money too).

I think you're right. My friend's suggestion was retarded on many levels.

Originally posted by: complich8
Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the "actively defending" thing is actually more relevant to trademarks.

Now that you mention it, I think you are completely correct--as I said I'm not the expert. Nothing like your entire post being completely wrong to make you look like an idiot [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[bob64]

Originally posted by: complich8

You might or might not be aware of this, but generally (and not 100% of the time, but in general) the quality of translation of r1 dvd releases is a notch above the halfhearted amateur attempts we see in the fansub world all the time. Sure, some groups are great, but when a dvd company takes its time, translates from original scripts, with professional translators, with access to the original creators, etc... they have a definite recipe for a better average quality point than we can hope to hit.

Yeah, I'm sure we all prefer Technique of Doppelganger instead of Technique of Shadow Clones. (English manga translation)

And lets not get started on 4kids' translations...

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: complich8
that's hardly a fair example, trigun is like 7 years old.

Sure, you can complain about how trigun's dvds aren't great. But that's like complaining about how your 1978 buick doesn't have good aerodynamics. Or how the first dvd edition of stargate looks like ass and has no menu to speak of. It's true, they suck, but it doesn't mean that dvds released 4 years ago are state-of-the-art, by any means.

With the tools that have come out since then, any blithering idiot who can take a good video stream and point the right tool at it can get a good output stream, but the fact is those tools weren't mature when the average trigun dvd was authored.

no, it was 4 years ago

you cant say back in the year 2000 there was no technology to prevent rainbow effects on the outlines of characters in any cartoon-style production

[complich8]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
no, it was 4 years ago

you cant say back in the year 2000 there was no technology to prevent rainbow effects on the outlines of characters in any cartoon-style production

You know, there was. But that doesn't mean it was in widespread use.

I'll still maintain that the quality of dvd video encoding has significantly improved since the days that was released though. You don't see that crap now, and if you do, please tell me where so I know what not to buy [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img].

[Assertn]

i dont think the rainbows were in the original trigun episodes straight from production, and if thats the case, then it has to be pioneer's fault for those showing up in the dvds......

but anyway, i'll be sure to let you know [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[LordZor]

R1 translations are NOT gold.

Prime example : US Release Kenshin.

I'd much rather watch the English 3rd language translations of Kenshin by Hecto Anime than the Media
Blasters trash any day. Not only did they (Media Blasters) add in the "gozaimasu" translation on EVERY line for Kenshins dialog (which on previous translation works (note ANIMEIGO) was restricted to liner notes (a practice long
since forgotten since LDs are dead), but they also FREQUENTLY misspelled words.

And this was an OFFICIAL US RELEASE.

And dont get me started on Ghost in the Shell 2 : Innocence. That translation was terrible, and it was a THEATRICAL RELEASE.

Point is : Fansubbers USUALLY end up doing it cleaner and better than R1 releases, because of the fact that they have competition. Theres only one translator per US R1 release, but almost any popular anime has 3 subbers doing the work (Note Naruto). Also, most sub tracks are Closed Caption English DUB tracks anyway. Most R1 releasers are more concerned about writing for the DUB than ever worrying about the sub track. Id rather wait upwards of a week for a AonE release sub than the Dattebayo subs, just because of somthing simple as presentation. I think the subs are timed well, etc, and the double listing (translation and japanese) for special moves is great. Of course, there are misspellings abound in the Naruto series, but even high stream subbers like #TV-NIHON misspell all the time. Although it irks me, at least I didnt buy a $24.99 DVD and see it.

I dont mind rewrites of story for US releases, if it makes sense to the market. I like old Streamline DUBS.... cause they were written well, if they were "translated" entirely wrong. So what. When they released a sub, though, it was Translated PROPERLY. Same goes for ANIMEIGO. US companies now ONLY are concerned about the dub, and the hefty pricetag, and not quality. ADV and Funimation seem to be the headrunners of this sort of "throw it out there" translation work.

/end rant.

On a side note : I wish subbers would keep in the JP commercials. I cant tell you how many times I saw something BADASS watching the Kenshin sub series + commericals!!!!!!

[complich8]

Kenshin = OLD RELEASES. Same deal as Trigun. You can complain all you want, but nobody cares anymore, it's irrelevant to the world today.

Innocence was .... something unique. It was released in the US with a sub-par sub job in the theatrical showings. The DVD release actually used a different subtitle track, which ... yeah, it had like stage direction and shit going on all over the place. Always identifying who's talking and stuff.

Of note ... Dreamworks is NOT an anime release company. Unlike mainstream R1 releasers like Bandai and ADV and Geneon and Viz, they don't usually DO anime translations or anime DVD releases. Innocence is DEFINITELY a corner case, and also something nobody in the main stream will even acknowledge as anything other than the work of an inexperienced company in the field. It's like the first releases of a lot of other producers: terrible. Further, "Theatrical Release" doesn't mean much, other than "we rushed this over from Japan with a hasty subtitle job because we wanted to beat the damned pirates to availability in the US".

I've NEVER, in my massive amount of anime consumption, seen as counterexemplary a subtitle job as Innocence was. But that's little proof of the lack of quality of the industry as a whole, and in fact a stark counterpoint to the usually good sub jobs.

But you've gotta give the dvd subs that they're stylistically consistent. Fansubs ... not so much.

As far as keeping commercials in fansubs ... that'd be up to the raw cappers. The raws fansubbers get pretty much NEVER have commercials in them. Further, it'd be a huge pain in the ass doing commercials in shows, because for one nobody really cares except for novelty value, and for another, you'd just see the same commercials over and over again just like with normal TV. It'd throw off the mood of an episode, and in my opinion would be a huge detraction from any serious series. Maybe wacky slapstick short-attention-span comedy it'd work ... but I can't imagine being in the middle of say the Kimimaro/Gaara fight and spending 4 minutes being told how I should drink a bad-tasting beverage that's not available in the US, that I should drive a Toyota car, that I should buy the latest and greatest Japanese-language talking robot toy, that I need to consider Term Life Insurance, and that I can now buy Naruto gear at my local toy store .... that can't possibly help the series, or my appreciation of it.