Gaara ownz several weak jounins but only with the power of shukaku period
Gaara ownz several weak jounins but only with the power of shukaku period
the weakest genin became chuunin? wow when did sakura become a chuunin? and still they were 4 against 2 who were totally out of power. the jounins even said themselfs that if they had any chakra left they would have won. just face it no genin can defeat a jounin with his own power. now im not counting shukaku, curse seal or kyuubi. and mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.Originally posted by: Y The Alien
And by 'completely drained' you mean 'I have no idea how weakened they were'. And guess what? It really doesn't change a thing that they had a hard time with the Jounin. Kidoumaru unequivocally stated that Neji was the strongest person he'd ever faced. He has faced Jounins. Ergo, Neji is stronger than at least some Jounins. Hell, if I remember, one of the Jounin they beat up was the judge from the exam - he probably sucked. But he was a Jounin, and Kido did say that Neji was stronger than him. Fact. Jesus.Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
no they were to compltetly drained jounins versus 4 guys that could barely defeat them. so you are wrong noob. no genin can defeat a jounin.
Notice, again, that promotions are not done on power - the weakest Genin is the one promoted to Chuunin.
EDIT:
The bias in favor of Jounins here is astonishing. I'm surprised that "Gaara channeling Shukaku, Curse Seal Sasuke, and Kyuubi Naruto versus that guy with the cough" hasn't been done.
oh and neji is nowhere near a jounin in strength since kidoumaru is nowhere near a jounin in strength.
@Jing: i dont know, i dont think so, if kishimoto checks the specials before they are made im starting to lsoe respect for the guy.
As people have said before it would depend on which jounin, but chances are he could beat a few but not gai or kakashi.
well.....i wouldnt go that far.....Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.
on the contrary, every time gaara does something involving sand, he's fighting with shukaku
if he didnt have shukaku, he wouldnt have control of sand
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Sorry, not everything that three people repeat on a messageboard becomes a fact.oh im sorry, i didnt realize i needed to repeat the same fact i pointed out 3 times already
Ha ha. Outrageous? Hardly. It's only outrageous due to the preformed bias on this board.since you're the one with such outrageous opinions regarding jounins
What I heard is that Gaara got the sand from his mother and Shukaku from his father when he was born,Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
well.....i wouldnt go that far.....Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.
on the contrary, every time gaara does something involving sand, he's fighting with shukaku
if he didnt have shukaku, he wouldnt have control of sand
elite hentai do you pay attention to the series at all?
actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the mangaOriginally posted by: Y The Alien
Sorry, not everything that three people repeat on a messageboard becomes a fact.
now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot
yes, it IS outrageous. Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen, most of the things everyone believes, and even stuff like stats and explanations that came from the big guy himself.Ha ha. Outrageous? Hardly. It's only outrageous due to the preformed bias on this board.
Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.
When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job
Elite Hentai: no, all gaara got from his mother was birth [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
his father bound him to the sand and ashes of a dead sand priest that was possessed by the demon shukaku
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Hahahahahaa. This is funny. First off. Sasuke owned Gaara. Gaara would've been seriously injured, or killed by Sasuke if that fight continued. So, Sasuke could beat a Jounin as well?
Not sure we are reading the same manga, and watching the same show.
true. i should have said it in a diffrent way. mostly he doesnt become(sort of) shukaku you know when the sand makes a body and stuff.Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
well.....i wouldnt go that far.....Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
mostly gaara doesnt fight with shukaku so he would lose against a jounin.
on the contrary, every time gaara does something involving sand, he's fighting with shukaku
if he didnt have shukaku, he wouldnt have control of sand
One that, unfortunately, does not support your opinion. Raidou says "We were low on chakra, and that's why we Jounin are in this state now." What this does *not* mean is that at full power the two Jounin would have ass-raped the Sound Four. That is just, as usual, your own speculation. Hell, Raidou's *very next sentence* is that a TEAM of Jounin needs to be sent to protect the Genin. Wow Raidou, a team? Why don't you just ask AssertnFailure, just two of you could whip the Sound Four's ass! Except I think Raidou knows a bit better than you do, and he recommends a team of Jounin in ADDITION to the elite Genin. So Raidou (just like you) underestimated the Genin and overestimated the Sound Four.actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the manga
It doesn't say what you want it to say. Nowhere in it does it say that people are promoted to Jounin because they are so ungodly powerful that they'd ass-rape any lower rank you threw at them.now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot
I really think you're being willfully ignorant here. You know Kabuto's speech in the Tsunade arc, where he's all "This is a Jounin and above battle, Genin are worthless and weak here!" That's your position.Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen
What happened to Kabuto after he gave that speech? He got torn up by the Rasengan and only lived because of his regeneration. Even then he was incapacitated. Yes, Naruto got ownzed too... but if you try to use friggin' Kabuto on a soldier pill as an example of the average Jounin, you're on drugs. Everyone who thinks of Jounin uses either Kakashi, Kabuto, or (if they're truly retarded) one of the Sannin as an example. These Jounin are *far* above average for their class, and it's been stated so several times.
Aww, going against the grain is an outrage? Too bad that's a logical fallacy - the number of people who believe something has absolutely no inherent connection with its truth.most of the things everyone believes
Apparently I'm bad at debates? Who just displayed their lack of understanding in regards to the burden of proof? Yep... you. FYI, the burden of proof in any debate is on anyone making a positive assertion, and both sides here do so. I've laid out a lot of my arguments in the last thread I made on this, and laid out several here. FYI also, the number of people who believe something does *not* change the burden of proof. Oh, wait, I can't know that! I'm *bad* at debates.Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.
When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job
People pretty much write off the elite Genin because they don't realize that they're being placed in confrontations that make for a good fight - not ones where they just fuck the enemy's brains out straight out of the box. I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise. Take Neji, as well. When he fought Naruto he was just dicking around and never used the Gentle Fist style to mess up his internal organs. When he fought Hinata and DIDN'T dick around, he friggin' destroyed her heart. And Kidoumaru got lucky because he JUST SO HAPPENED to be able to block the Jyuuken moves with his web armor. Let's say Neji had been fighting, oh, say, any other Sound nin. If he was truly ready to kill them, he could hit them ONCE and explode their heart. Hell, take Sasuke. How much of a fucking elder demon is it going to take to defeat him now that his Sharingan is fully unlocked? And yet people still talk like he's this pussy that Zabuza would own, despite getting so much stronger it isn't even funny.
The only reason Kabuto got hit, is because he got very cocky.
And, guess what, fighting Tsunade has gotta drain your Stamina and your Chakra, he would've been able to heal, if he was at full from the start.
And saying that "oh, he only survived because of his regen" is bullshit, its a damn hard technique. Naruto only lived past the Haku arc because of the nine-tails. And I don't see anyone complaining. Hell, Naruto should've died right there, right then after Kabuto hit him, he had to be saved.
Also, the whole deal with Sasukes evolved sharigan. I think the manga overexagurated its effects. First off, Sasuke was able to see and predict movement before, its nothing new.
Zabuza would own him, plain and simple. Please, give me some facts on how Sasuke would beat him.
The gennin's aren't weaklings, but they don't compare. The difference between Kakashi and Itachi fighting, and Itachi and Sasuke, well, basically Itachi kicking the shit out of Sasuke for a while was huge.
Kakashi held his own quite nicely, he took a few shots only to save Kurenai, and only lost because of the Mangekyou. Itachi only used the mangekyou on Sasuke for torture purposes.
Funny, even if a TEAM of Jounin were needed to stop the sound 4, they looked pretty damn whipped after fighting the 2 jounins. Lets take some more quotes.
"We lose too much strenght when we fight at curse seal level 2"
"What troubles me most is the fact that we can't use our bodies"
"There wasn't any way agaisnt two Jounins... If we tried to conserve our energy, we may have been defeated."
Sounds like it was easy fighting 2 drained Jounins. So, 2 drained Jounins fight 4 sand nin, lose, but force them to use enough energy so they can't use their bodies, and go curse seal level 2, then immediately after fight Naruto and Co. inbetween running like heck. Also, Naruto and Co got Food Pills off Chouji.
Oh, and I didn't see anything about needing a team. I saw, "if you follow them, you will end up dead" but that was to a fellow Jounin that was with them, just as low on Chakra.
ummm... i got a problem with this one...Originally posted by: Y The Alien
I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise.
you're trying to fabricate a vs scenario where the opposition against the genins have a huge disadvantage. you can't just put a jounin in that situation and say anyone except kimimaro would've been caught dead by gaara's techniques because anyone but kimimaro could have also stopped gaara from even attacking (well, not anyone but you get the point).
anyway, i think the point some of the people are trying to make is that, while not all jounins may have powerful jutsus (like gaara's sand techniques), they are more clever and intelligente than genins like gaara who rely more on their power moves than utilizing all of their skills and abilities efficiently. this pretty much leads to gaara not even being able to get a move off because jounins are just so much smarter and more efficient in their fights. kakashi is a pretty good example of how a jounin is so much more efficient in fighting.
I think, Gaara can kill the crappiest Jounin in the world [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
I like how most of your responses are based around the assumption that your first point was correct. That makes things a little easier for me [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]. For one thing......yes, it does mean that they wouldve raped the sound 4. Ninjas can tell how strong an opponent is by fighting them....and if they say "we wouldnt be in the state we're in now", then that means that they wouldve won. You have to realize, that this is a story created by somebody, not real life. Therefore when a detail like that is mentioned, then it SHOULD be obvious that the author intended to clarify something that people might not understand. Unfortunately this only works 99% of the time it seems. And yes a "team" of jounins. Why do you suppose that is? because jounins always travel in teams! Only a truly arrogant (or moronic) person would decide to take the bare minimum out to fight a battle if he had a safer alternative. This makes sense to me, but apparently you know more about how ninjas behave.Originally posted by: Y The Alien
One that, unfortunately, does not support your opinion. Raidou says "We were low on chakra, and that's why we Jounin are in this state now." What this does *not* mean is that at full power the two Jounin would have ass-raped the Sound Four. That is just, as usual, your own speculation. Hell, Raidou's *very next sentence* is that a TEAM of Jounin needs to be sent to protect the Genin. Wow Raidou, a team? Why don't you just ask AssertnFailure, just two of you could whip the Sound Four's ass! Except I think Raidou knows a bit better than you do, and he recommends a team of Jounin in ADDITION to the elite Genin. So Raidou (just like you) underestimated the Genin and overestimated the Sound Four.actually.....the "fact that i pointed out" if you would pay attention, was a direct reference to the manga
It doesn't say what you want it to say. Nowhere in it does it say that people are promoted to Jounin because they are so ungodly powerful that they'd ass-rape any lower rank you threw at them.now unless if you're gonna assume the manga isnt fact because its kishimoto's opinion.....then you're an idiot
I really think you're being willfully ignorant here. You know Kabuto's speech in the Tsunade arc, where he's all "This is a Jounin and above battle, Genin are worthless and weak here!" That's your position.Becuase what you say goes against most of the stuff we've seen
What happened to Kabuto after he gave that speech? He got torn up by the Rasengan and only lived because of his regeneration. Even then he was incapacitated. Yes, Naruto got ownzed too... but if you try to use friggin' Kabuto on a soldier pill as an example of the average Jounin, you're on drugs. Everyone who thinks of Jounin uses either Kakashi, Kabuto, or (if they're truly retarded) one of the Sannin as an example. These Jounin are *far* above average for their class, and it's been stated so several times.
Aww, going against the grain is an outrage? Too bad that's a logical fallacy - the number of people who believe something has absolutely no inherent connection with its truth.most of the things everyone believes
Apparently I'm bad at debates? Who just displayed their lack of understanding in regards to the burden of proof? Yep... you. FYI, the burden of proof in any debate is on anyone making a positive assertion, and both sides here do so. I've laid out a lot of my arguments in the last thread I made on this, and laid out several here. FYI also, the number of people who believe something does *not* change the burden of proof. Oh, wait, I can't know that! I'm *bad* at debates.Apparently you're bad at debates, but let me elaborate a little.
When you have a strong opinion of something that nobody else believes in....it isnt everyone else's job to try to prove you wrong....its YOUR job to convince us that you're right. And frankly you're not doing a very good job
People pretty much write off the elite Genin because they don't realize that they're being placed in confrontations that make for a good fight - not ones where they just fuck the enemy's brains out straight out of the box. I mean, take Gaara. If he had been fighting ANYONE except Kimimaro and used the technique where he shoves them 200 meters underground and crushes them... they'd be dead. Same deal for the huge sand wave. I don't think even you would say otherwise. Take Neji, as well. When he fought Naruto he was just dicking around and never used the Gentle Fist style to mess up his internal organs. When he fought Hinata and DIDN'T dick around, he friggin' destroyed her heart. And Kidoumaru got lucky because he JUST SO HAPPENED to be able to block the Jyuuken moves with his web armor. Let's say Neji had been fighting, oh, say, any other Sound nin. If he was truly ready to kill them, he could hit them ONCE and explode their heart. Hell, take Sasuke. How much of a fucking elder demon is it going to take to defeat him now that his Sharingan is fully unlocked? And yet people still talk like he's this pussy that Zabuza would own, despite getting so much stronger it isn't even funny.
As for going against the grain being an outrage? no, i merely said that doing so puts you in the position of needing to prove your point moreso than the rest of us. When columbus challenged the idea of the world being round, was it the scientists' duty to prove him otherwise? no of course not. It would be idiotic to have to go through an endless debate among every individual person that might show up and say they disagree. And since this came up in one of my classes recently.....what about the nature vs nurture (gender roles are determined genetically vs dependent on the environment you're rased in) debate? Everyone believed it was nature for men to be dominant over women, but there was one woman who didnt believe in that. Did she just sit there waiting to be proven wrong? no....she went to tribes off in some island somewhere and did extensive research.
anyway thats longwinded and all.......but the fact remains the same. There is never a topic that 100% of the people agree on. Therefore its more along the lines of "the majority will believe what they want to believe, and wont give a shit what the minority believes unless the minority brings up convincing evidence"
in short....yes.....the burden of proof is dependent on popular opinion
now......moving on.............
if you really want to know what i think of all this....i look at it this way. There are two factors that determine a match between 2 characters.
1) the level of the character
2) the level of the jutsus the character knows
typically, one character can only beat another character if they use a jutsu that is equal to or higher than the level of the opponent.
mizuki was beatin by kage bunshin (chuunin vs a jounin jutsu)
Haku was beaten by kyubi chakra (jounin vs demon power)
kabuto was beaten by rasengan (jounin vs super A rank blah blah jutsu)
etc....
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
This is partially my point - anyone who does *not* happen to have an incredibly powerful shield of bones and is not able to move their body by willpower alone would have been at a *serious* disadvantage.you're trying to fabricate a vs scenario where the opposition against the genins have a huge disadvantage..
Er, can you prove this is true? My point is kinda that Random Jounin #47 ain't all that. I doubt that most people could have stopped Gaara's enormous, ungodly huge sand wave (since the fighters in Naruto seem perfectly content to let their opponent launch Jutsus and not speedblitz them).you can't just put a jounin in that situation and say anyone except kimimaro would've been caught dead by gaara's techniques because anyone but kimimaro could have also stopped gaara from even attacking (well, not anyone but you get the point).
I don't think that *most* of them are making this point. However, this is true. Jounins who have a greater mastery over their own skills might be able to surpass the enormous raw power than is Gaara - thing is, we've never seen a Jounin like this (except for, maybe, Gai or Kakashi, who are obviously not the average Jounin). I don't consider one-hit-wonders like Asuma or Kurenai to be especially "skilled" - I'm surethey might be, but they hasn't shown any more creativity than the Genin. In addition, skill can only take you so far - if, say, Gaara activated his enormous sand wave, pretty much anyone is shit out of luck. If Neji lightly taps you once - shit out of luck.
anyway, i think the point some of the people are trying to make is that, while not all jounins may have powerful jutsus (like gaara's sand techniques), they are more clever and intelligente than genins like gaara who rely more on their power moves than utilizing all of their skills and abilities efficiently.
Really? The Jounin seemed perfectly content to let their opponents use Jutsus and THEN try to work their way out of them. Kakashi does this because he wants to copy their technique of course, and Zabuza let Kakashi practically write a damn book because he was just playing around, but someone like Asuma was content to let Kisame whip out his Jutsu. Unless of course you hypothesize that they're actually doing hand seals at super speed and the Genins aren't. Kisame seemed to be the only one who acted preemptively to stop anyone from using a technique, with his Samehada.this pretty much leads to gaara not even being able to get a move off because jounins are just so much smarter and more efficient in their fights.
Personally, I think a Jounin has pretty much the same attitude that my opposition does in this thread. They don't think the Genin can do anything to them. If both were gunning for each other's lives it might be a tossup as to who gets off the first attack, but a Jounin isn't going to take a Genin seriously with both in character - and against someone who can crush you under thousands of tons of rock, or explode your internal organs, that is a serious mistake.
I think assert is quite right on this one.
I think a Jounin can defeat Gaara, if they get through his sand shield.
Maybe there is a Jounin in the world that is not capable of doing it. (but they most likely know).
lee could get through his sand shield.....and i dont think his taijutsu is quite "jounin level" yet
not saying that all jounins have "jounin level" taijutsu however, but for the ones that do manage to max that out, then yeah, gaara's sand shield would be pwned
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
ok, well i think you're missing my point. what my main point is, against a jounin, gaara won't even be able to get an attack off like that. and gaara somehow manages to do so, i don't think a jounin will be beaten by it so quickly.Originally posted by: Y The Alien
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Despite the fact that no Jounin has ever speedblitzed anyone right off the bat?Originally posted by: Mut@t@
ok, well i think you're missing my point. what my main point is, against a jounin, gaara won't even be able to get an attack off like that. and gaara somehow manages to do so, i don't think a jounin will be beaten by it so quickly.Originally posted by: Y The Alien
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