Party Balance

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

Check and mate.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

Check and mate.

if only you knew what you were talking about uchiha neji
werent you supposed to be watching the series over again? dont tell me you went through them all already.

ikari: no you're wrong, it wouldnt have made a difference.
while having chakra control is important for walking on water, tell me how it was important against kiba.
the entire idea behind that fight was that kiba was simply too fast for naruto to compete with. Would having control of his chakra make naruto faster? highly unlikely. Unless he started busting out the red chakra, which was the REASON for me bringing that up. Since he didnt know how to control that, then i cant see how the seal made a difference in that particular match.

and yes, haku underestimated naruto. why do i say that? because if he hadnt, then he wouldnt have taken his sweet time with his ice mirrors trick. He toyed with naruto...not because he was arrogant, but because he sorta pitied the guy, and didnt want to go all out.

and by the time gaara stopped underestimating naruto, naruto had already started going AWOL with chakra.....so it was too late

any other points i missed to counter? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[wirm]

I think in a fight, Hinata would easily beat Sakura. Sakura hasn't shown any skills in fighting at all. No need to get into details.



I'd like to throw my 2 cents in about some of the points brought up so far.


1) Hinata doesn't hit people's tenketsus. Neji does that. Hinata can see them, but it takes a very skilled fighter to actually hit them in a fight. Hinata uses the gentle-fist technique to hit the chakra circulatory system and internal organs. It doesn't matter where she hits, it will still cause a lot of damage. Hitting tenketsus seems to be a humiliation technique that Neji was showing off with. Why seal up a person's chakra when you can just kill them?

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

4) I would love to see Kaiten vs Chidori. I know that chidori should cut through just about anything, but Kaiten is designed to parry any attack (not block). So the full force of impact would be directed to the side. If I had to guess, I'd say Kaiten would win. Still, it'd be cool [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[kenshi]

Originally posted by: wirm

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

i thought sharingan slows down movements. didn't sasuke see how lee executed lotus but couldn't react to it before the chuunin exam? also, if sharingan copies jutsus through prediction, then there would've been alot of errors (at least in the case of copying seals).

also, during the fight between kakashi and itachi, kakashi commented on the fast execution speed of jutsus from itachi. he said something along the line of how he had trouble following the seals that itachi was performing. i thought that implies of kakashi's attempt to catch the order of the seals being performed instead of predicting the entire sequence.

[wirm]

Originally posted by: kenshi

Originally posted by: wirm

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

i thought sharingan slows down movements. didn't sasuke see how lee executed lotus but couldn't react to it before the chuunin exam? also, if sharingan copies jutsus through prediction, then there would've been alot of errors (at least in the case of copying seals).

also, during the fight between kakashi and itachi, kakashi commented on the fast execution speed of jutsus from itachi. he said something along the line of how he had trouble following the seals that itachi was performing. i thought that implies of kakashi's attempt to catch the order of the seals being performed instead of predicting the entire sequence.

I thought that about the Lee vs Sasuke fight too at first. It's even trickier in the Sasuke vs Haku fight. From the animation, it sure looks like the sharingan sees things in slow motion. However, in the dialogue, I remember Haku saying to himself "pretty soon he'll be able to predict my movement". And in the Sasuke vs Gaara (partial transformation) Sasuke commented that if his sharingan wasn't predicting Gaara's movement, he'd already be dead.

I don't think that the sharingan copies through prediction. That's just weird. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I think that the prediction and copying are different aspects of the bloodline limit. Sharingan can exactly copy someone's movement (note the way Sasuke was cheating during the first exam by copying the guy in front of him). I don't think that the sharingan copies just the guy's movements (hand seals). I believe it looks into the chakra distribution/use to get the general gist of the jutsu, and the hand seals are copied incidently (not sure if I worded that right). Anyway, the use of chakra is probably the more important part of the jutsu.

In the Lee vs Sasuke fight, it didn't matter that Sasuke could see what Lee was going to do. He just wasn't fast enough to counter it.



Thinking back, when Zabuza was explaining his first defeat at the hands of Kakashi, I believe he said that Kakashi was using the sharingan to predict Zabuza's movement and stay just a little ahead of him. That's how Kakashi was able to do the seals at exactly the same time as Zabuza. As for moving ahead of him, I believe that was a combination of genjutsu and suggestion.


As for the Itachi fight, I don't think the sharingan can see that far ahead. Catching the entire sequence before hit happened would be too good [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.

[Inazuma Kami]

-Haku did not underestimate his oppnent or overestimated his own jutsu , i think Haku was just too soft... He was just a Skilled and kind guy ...

-Kiba is faster and stronger than Naruto , his scout abilities are as effective as a byakugan ...
There is no way Naruto can beat Kiba if he weren't that confused.

Sasuke vs ??? , I think Sasuke is just too Self Confident...
That can happen
"Oh i am from the Uchiha Clan there is no way i can lose to this guy ..."
*Bam* , While he thought so higly of him, his opponent kick his face with all he got ... 1 min later Kakashi and Naruto come to rescue Sasuke.
-Sasuke : You are late Sensei
-Kakashi and Naruto : Don't worry i won't let anyone in my team die *With the Nice guy pose* [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

-Sharingan can copy and produce illusion (See Zabuza Mizu Bunshin) the user understand the ennemy's Ninjutsu in a flash .However Sharingan vs Taijutsu is very bad combination (as Lee said) i don''t think Sasuke can Copy "Konoha Senpu" as easily as water clone .

-Kaiten vs Chidori ? Kaiten will win against Chidori because it can deflect everything (Shuriken, kicks , even Naruto/Kyuubi's Punch in the exam...)

-Are the Groups Balanced ? Everyone think about the skill of each genins .. ok that matter but i think the teams got a "role"; N°7 is an amazing Task Force , [Hinata Kiba Shino] an effetive Scout team ,
[Ino-Shika-Chou] They can be the "brain" of any mission (while Shika think about the options Ino and Chou cover him). And do not forget , Shinji Ikari Said "Life is just unfair ..." i think that's true...
There is one way that grade Naruto's genins : Taijutsu , Ninjutsu , Genjutsu , Special , Chakra .

Oh i forgot one thing , Enjoy this Anime [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Inazuma Kami
-Haku did not underestimate his oppnent or overestimated his own jutsu , i think Haku was just too soft... He was just a Skilled and kind guy ...

-Kiba is faster and stronger than Naruto , his scout abilities are as effective as a byakugan ...
There is no way Naruto can beat Kiba if he weren't that confused.

Sasuke vs ??? , I think Sasuke is just too Self Confident...
That can happen
"Oh i am from the Uchiha Clan there is no way i can lose to this guy ..."
*Bam* , While he thought so higly of him, his opponent kick his face with all he got ... 1 min later Kakashi and Naruto come to rescue Sasuke.
-Sasuke : You are late Sensei
-Kakashi and Naruto : Don't worry i won't let anyone in my team die *With the Nice guy pose* [img][/img]

-Sharingan can copy and produce illusion (See Zabuza Mizu Bunshin) the user understand the ennemy's Ninjutsu in a flash .However Sharingan vs Taijutsu is very bad combination (as Lee said) i don''t think Sasuke can Copy "Konoha Senpu" as easily as water clone .

-Kaiten vs Chidori ? Kaiten will win against Chidori because it can deflect everything (Shuriken, kicks , even Naruto/Kyuubi's Punch in the exam...)

-Are the Groups Balanced ? Everyone think about the skill of each genins .. ok that matter but i think the teams got a "role"; N°7 is an amazing Task Force , [Hinata Kiba Shino] an effetive Scout team ,
[Ino-Shika-Chou] They can be the "brain" of any mission (while Shika think about the options Ino and Chou cover him). And do not forget , Shinji Ikari Said "Life is just unfair ..." i think that's true...
There is one way that grade Naruto's genins : Taijutsu , Ninjutsu , Genjutsu , Special , Chakra .

Oh i forgot one thing , Enjoy this Anime [img][/img]

Ok well theres a couple of things thats wrong in here.

1)Kiba's "scout" abilities are FAR FAR away from Byakugan.

2)Sasuke's not very self confident, just daring, like Neji. and like Naruto is now. He'll try to defeat someone, he won't just run away, he was like this from the very first time he fought.

3)Sasuke can't copy Konoha Senpu. The only reason Sasuke's fighting style was the same as Lee's was because he trained for a month to learn it. And when sasuke did the Lion Combo on that one guy in the pre-liminaries, he had to use Taijutsu because of the cursed seal so he just used Lee's advanced Tai that he had already seen. There was no copyage going on there.

4)And Special is Ninjutsu, I bet your thinking of Chidori and Rasengan when you say special.

[Mut]

taijutsu is not bad against the sharingan as long as the sharingan user is equally fast or faster.

[wirm]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.

I recall no instances where anybody said that Lee was the best at taijutsu. I do remember a flashback where Lee was the only one to master the Lotus. But that doesn't make him the best at taijutsu.

I recall several instances where it was remarked that Lee's taijutsu was low level.

He and Gai both discussed this and Temari noted this.

Gai said that Lee couldn't use genjutsu or ninjutsu, plus, he had no talent in taijutsu. However, due to his hard work and concentration, he's improved his crappy taijutsu to the point where his speed and strength can beat just about anybody. However, his style and technique are still low level.

Neji's taijutsu has the strongest style and best technique. But being a genius, he doesn't have to work as hard as Lee does.



I'm not saying that Lee can't beat Neji (though it's been said plenty of times). I'm saying that his taijutsu is weaker. However, Lee is much faster and stronger (without injuries) and is probably more effective in a fight.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: wirm

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.

I recall no instances where anybody said that Lee was the best at taijutsu. I do remember a flashback where Lee was the only one to master the Lotus. But that doesn't make him the best at taijutsu.

I recall several instances where it was remarked that Lee's taijutsu was low level.

He and Gai both discussed this and Temari noted this.

Gai said that Lee couldn't use genjutsu or ninjutsu, plus, he had no talent in taijutsu. However, due to his hard work and concentration, he's improved his crappy taijutsu to the point where his speed and strength can beat just about anybody. However, his style and technique are still low level.

Neji's taijutsu has the strongest style and best technique. But being a genius, he doesn't have to work as hard as Lee does.



I'm not saying that Lee can't beat Neji (though it's been said plenty of times). I'm saying that his taijutsu is weaker. However, Lee is much faster and stronger (without injuries) and is probably more effective in a fight.

Posted by wirm

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

http://www.narutoinfo.com/index.php?...ghting%20Stats

That's a link to a site that has pictures from the official book out now of Naruto characters and their stats. It says lee has 4/5 for taijutsu but Neji has 3.5 these figures were taken during the START of the chuunin exam. But this doesn't affect lee or Neji since we have no information of them improving since then.

Lee also hs the highest Taijutsu out of all of the 12 konoha gennins.

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Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.
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1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor

At that site it also says that Neji has an intelligence of 2.5 with Sasuke having 2. So I was right about them being close in intelligence but I was wrong when I said he had higher intelligence.

[wirm]

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu

Originally posted by: wirm

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

Sorry dude but that was said several times in FLASHBACKS. Lee is now the best at Taijutsu because of his Lotus techniques which are indeed Taijutsu. Neji just has his great Tenketsu and his internal organ attacks, not sure if this is considered Tai but still Lotus is better.

I recall no instances where anybody said that Lee was the best at taijutsu. I do remember a flashback where Lee was the only one to master the Lotus. But that doesn't make him the best at taijutsu.

I recall several instances where it was remarked that Lee's taijutsu was low level.

He and Gai both discussed this and Temari noted this.

Gai said that Lee couldn't use genjutsu or ninjutsu, plus, he had no talent in taijutsu. However, due to his hard work and concentration, he's improved his crappy taijutsu to the point where his speed and strength can beat just about anybody. However, his style and technique are still low level.

Neji's taijutsu has the strongest style and best technique. But being a genius, he doesn't have to work as hard as Lee does.



I'm not saying that Lee can't beat Neji (though it's been said plenty of times). I'm saying that his taijutsu is weaker. However, Lee is much faster and stronger (without injuries) and is probably more effective in a fight.

Posted by wirm

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

http://www.narutoinfo.com/index.php?...ghting%20Stats

That's a link to a site that has pictures from the official book out now of Naruto characters and their stats. It says lee has 4/5 for taijutsu but Neji has 3.5 these figures were taken during the START of the chuunin exam. But this doesn't affect lee or Neji since we have no information of them improving since then.

Lee also hs the highest Taijutsu out of all of the 12 konoha gennins.

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Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.
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1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor

At that site it also says that Neji has an intelligence of 2.5 with Sasuke having 2. So I was right about them being close in intelligence but I was wrong when I said he had higher intelligence.

Look at that huge quote, haha


Anyway, I don't look at web sites for stats. Unless the web site is run by the guy who writes Naruto or his company, then those stats are the opinion of the person who writes them.

I am more than willing to consider everyone's opinion. But if those opinions are not backed up by something said or mentioned in the anime, then that is all it will remain. An opinion.

However, I can back up my opinions with the anime. And if there's something I'm unsure of, I either shut up, or say that I'm not sure. If you can show me any part in the anime that backs up the statistics you quoted, I will be a happy convert. But if you can't, then that person's opinion will not influence my opinion.

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure

Originally posted by: uhicha neji

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

Check and mate.

if only you knew what you were talking about uchiha neji
werent you supposed to be watching the series over again? dont tell me you went through them all already.

ikari: no you're wrong, it wouldnt have made a difference.
while having chakra control is important for walking on water, tell me how it was important against kiba.
the entire idea behind that fight was that kiba was simply too fast for naruto to compete with. Would having control of his chakra make naruto faster? highly unlikely. Unless he started busting out the red chakra, which was the REASON for me bringing that up. Since he didnt know how to control that, then i cant see how the seal made a difference in that particular match.

and yes, haku underestimated naruto. why do i say that? because if he hadnt, then he wouldnt have taken his sweet time with his ice mirrors trick. He toyed with naruto...not because he was arrogant, but because he sorta pitied the guy, and didnt want to go all out.

and by the time gaara stopped underestimating naruto, naruto had already started going AWOL with chakra.....so it was too late

any other points i missed to counter? [img][/img]

I'm not evening going to bother argue, your to stubborn to argue with, but ikari was right. Sorry I don't study Naruto like you do.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji
I'm not evening going to bother argue, your to stubborn to argue with, but ikari was right. Sorry I don't study Naruto like you do.

lol nice dodge of the discussion
i do admit when people point out details i havent thought of yet, but im yet to find that in this convo

a response like that tells me that you just want to side with someone who shares a similar opinion as you do, but you dont have a reason as to why

also.....if you admit that i study naruto more than you do.....
than that means you admit that i have a better understanding of naruto right?
looks like you contradicted yourself, bud [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]