Party Balance

[Aeon]

I guess it's time to defend my post, When the teams were picked Shikamaru had scores very close to Naruto in the acadamy because picking up a pen was too troublesome for him to complete tests. Also in the flashbacks Kiba was always sleeping in class and escaping class with Naruto and Shikamaru. That's why I put them three in the slacker bracket. As far as Hinata being smart only reason why I say that is because during the Chuunin exam her and Sakura were the only people that didn't cheat, so I'm guessing she had confidance in her answers.

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.

1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
Yeah, and if things would have been normal for Naruto Kiba would tand even less of a chance since it made not only kyubi chakra unstable but also his normal chakra which most people seem to forget when thinking about this fight. If his normal chakra would have been okey, then Kiba's sorry dogshit ass would have been whopped to the eastern side of that country.

Naruto did "mold" chakra on purpose to fart, it was his intentions, and no matter how discusting you may think it was, it was still very effective.

Edit: And no, it was not dumb luck. Naruto calculated that based on the info that he got. He knew that Kiba could sniff himself to akamaru, therefore he also knew that his senses were very fragile to bad smells, common sense guys.

no.....if things would have been normal for naruto, then kiba would have had just about the same chance anyway.

1) naruto didnt know how to control kyubi's chakra until after he met jiraiya
2) only way naruto used kyubi's chakra was when he was uber pissed.....and i doubt that wouldve happened from just a prelim match.

the real reason that naruto beat kiba was the same reason naruto beat haku and kabuto and gaara
because the enemy underestimated him and just toyed around with him instead

Aeon: kiba was sleepin in class that ONE flashback....i sleep in class alot in HS but that doesnt mean anything [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] chouji, shika, naruto, and kiba were all in trouble in that flashback with iruka telling them about the forehead leaf exercise, so does that mean that all 4 of them are on the bottom of the list? The defining characteristic of kiba is his arrogance...and you cant be arrogant if you're at the bottom.

Also i highly doubt hinata was able to answer all the questions by herself. Sakura was the ONLY person who could possibly do that, and i'm sure sasuke wouldve had a better chance at solving the problems than hinata.

[Mut]

why is this even asked as a question...

of course not all the teams will be perfectly balanced. and hinata sucks, she really does. if there were actual rankings hinata would be in the bottom 3 along with naruto and some other loser genin.

and as for naruto not using his kyubi chakra against kiba... the kyubi chakra has always been merging with naruto's own chakra. so whether naruto wants to use the kyubi chakra or not, part of it is being used anyway.

[Assertn]

yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

[Shi_No_Shikaku]

thay were based on scores of the acadamy or how ever it spell it....

[tuggumkee]

The teams were based off of the scores of the academy and probably personality. For those who said the Gai team couldn't be counted, it can be. Neji was #1, and Lee was last, tenten probably in the middle.
I'm not just bashing Lee, but if u look back to the time when he just started he sucked it big time.

Teams were pretty balanced coming out of the academy. Kiba was said to be as bad as naruto(narrirated by naruto during the beginning of chunnin exam), shika is the same.

There obviously was more taken into consideration when they made the groups i.e. Ino-shika-choji team, but they were all balanced

[Munsu]

The reason that it couldnt be counted is because it doesnt matter how good Neji was and how bad Lee was... or how average Tenten was... all their scores are irrelevant for the arragement of the new groups for the sole reason that they were upperclassmen... they do not factor into the decision of the group formations...

If you are using Neji's group as an example of how the groups are formed hystorically, then I agree with you

[Shinji Ikari]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

[chambers]

i love the war in kiba's group he barks stuff like hes theleader but everyone really knows its shino that wears the pants, that guy is weird and i reckon he could probly beat most of the other genins, there are just too many possabilities for him to get his bugs on them!

[Rek]

except naruto. (seriously) the chakra bugs could eat his fucking face off and he'd still be coming. Remember Neji's chakra seal? Just like that.

[TwisT]

Originally posted by: Sanjuro
You know back when they said all of the groups were specially selected for balance, back when they first became Genin? Was this really true? Think about it: I know in theory Naruto's party was balanced (Naruto=worst Sakura=mediocre sasuke=#1) but what about the Ino-Shika-Chou group? they seem pretty weak (yes i know Shikamaru is cool, but still) while the Hinata-Kiba-Shino groups seems unusuallky strong (they were like the 2nd ppl to finish the forest of death right?) Just wondering what you guys thought.

OH yeah and doesnt Rock Lee's group seem ridiculously strong (before the...incident I mean)

Well they had a whole year of practise.. And if you remember correctly Kabuto said that Rock Lee sucked ass but had improved extremly in taijutsu the last year.. So when the graduated Neji was nr.1 rookie, TenTen was avarage and Rock Lee was like Naruto and was the worst student..

But like Naruto-team Rock Lee trained hard and became one of the strongest..

So like Naruto-team they have there class 2 best guys and a avarage woman in there team (even if sakura turned out to be there class worst student unlike TenTen that could actually do something)


Oh and for Kiba-team.. From the flashback when Naruto tried to learn Rasengan we saw that Kiba was not a bright kid.. Always pulling pranks like Naruto..


But what i dont get is the Ino-Shika-Choji team.. Shika was really bad in school.. It was not untill they have got Asuma as there trainer and he did that IQ-test that they new that he was super-smart.. So he must have been in the bottom of the class with Kiba and Naruto.. So is was Choji that great in school?? Because i see Ino as an avarage like Sakura.. So Choji must have been the one that was expected to be the strongest in there team..

And forgive my english.. I have no time to look over my spelling today..

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

Check and mate.

[Kagemane_no_Jutsu]

Originally posted by: Aeon
I guess it's time to defend my post, When the teams were picked Shikamaru had scores very close to Naruto in the acadamy because picking up a pen was too troublesome for him to complete tests. Also in the flashbacks Kiba was always sleeping in class and escaping class with Naruto and Shikamaru. That's why I put them three in the slacker bracket. As far as Hinata being smart only reason why I say that is because during the Chuunin exam her and Sakura were the only people that didn't cheat, so I'm guessing she had confidance in her answers.

Originally posted by: Kagemane_no_Jutsu
[Oh I'm sorry. Did I insult your precious Neji? Well maybe if you were watching the same show as me we could agree. I hate Sasuke so i'm not saying any of this because I like him but Sasuke is better than Neji, not by much but he is. 1) He has Sharingan, providing him insight and he can slow movements down so that he can react better. 2) His speed is equal to Lee's which is WAY faster than Neji's speed. I'm not sure if its with Lee's his weights on or off but I think with them off. 3) His ninjutsu skills are the best of all the 12 popular konoha gennins. 4) His intelegence is either higher or somewhat close to neji's. 5) His Taijutsu is one of the best with Lee being 1st Neji being 2nd and Sasuke being 3rd. 6) Chidori....do I even have to comment on that?

Next time give me a reason if you are going to disagree or else you just look like a pathetic fanboy.

Once again Sasuke is far my fav character so I'm deff no fanboy of his.

1.Same can be said for Neji and his Byakugan, cept seeing 360degrees takes away the need to slow down movements.
2.Maybe you are forgetting the fact that Lee has never defeated Neji with or without weights. They never showed them fighting without but considering Neji wasnt surprised when Lee took them off I'd say he knew about them.
3.That's not saying a lot, since none of the genins seem to use ninjutsu and all he's done is use a couple fire attacks and chidori.
4.What made you draw that conclusion?
5.can't really argue with that.
6.I doubt Chidori can get through Kiaten and until the anime says otherwise I'm sticking to what I think, and a couple hits from Neji to Sasuke arm and chidori won't be a factor.

Yea it's close as hell....damn, Neji vs Sasuke would make an awesome fight.

Edit: and my opinion as to Neji and Sasuke being close in intelligence, Sasuke is third smartest in the group of 9 with Shika being 1 and Shino 2. I think Neji is around Shino or Sasuke's level. I think most people could agree with me on that one.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

Check and mate.

if only you knew what you were talking about uchiha neji
werent you supposed to be watching the series over again? dont tell me you went through them all already.

ikari: no you're wrong, it wouldnt have made a difference.
while having chakra control is important for walking on water, tell me how it was important against kiba.
the entire idea behind that fight was that kiba was simply too fast for naruto to compete with. Would having control of his chakra make naruto faster? highly unlikely. Unless he started busting out the red chakra, which was the REASON for me bringing that up. Since he didnt know how to control that, then i cant see how the seal made a difference in that particular match.

and yes, haku underestimated naruto. why do i say that? because if he hadnt, then he wouldnt have taken his sweet time with his ice mirrors trick. He toyed with naruto...not because he was arrogant, but because he sorta pitied the guy, and didnt want to go all out.

and by the time gaara stopped underestimating naruto, naruto had already started going AWOL with chakra.....so it was too late

any other points i missed to counter? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[wirm]

I think in a fight, Hinata would easily beat Sakura. Sakura hasn't shown any skills in fighting at all. No need to get into details.



I'd like to throw my 2 cents in about some of the points brought up so far.


1) Hinata doesn't hit people's tenketsus. Neji does that. Hinata can see them, but it takes a very skilled fighter to actually hit them in a fight. Hinata uses the gentle-fist technique to hit the chakra circulatory system and internal organs. It doesn't matter where she hits, it will still cause a lot of damage. Hitting tenketsus seems to be a humiliation technique that Neji was showing off with. Why seal up a person's chakra when you can just kill them?

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

3) Rock Lee doesn't have the strongest taijutsu. Neji does. In fact it was brought up multiple times that Lee's taijutsu is extremely low-level. It's only his speed and strength (from all his training) that makes him so good.

4) I would love to see Kaiten vs Chidori. I know that chidori should cut through just about anything, but Kaiten is designed to parry any attack (not block). So the full force of impact would be directed to the side. If I had to guess, I'd say Kaiten would win. Still, it'd be cool [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[uhicha neji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure

Originally posted by: uhicha neji

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
yeah, the part about naruto having more chakra than anyone else is the result of the merging, but i dont think his problem against kiba was how much chakra he had

No, not how much chakra, but the control of it must have had a large part of how he fought since it was awefull. What about him not being able to control the red chakra before meeting Jiraya? Everyone knows that, what's your point? What i said was that Naruto couldn't even control his own chakra after Orochimaru put the seal on him. This is confirmed by Jiraya after he takes away the seal.

Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

Edit: Sure Kabuto did underestimate him the whole time, even Kiba did that (or rather he overestimated his own strenght), but Haku and Gaara, no way...

Sure Gaara did underestimate him at first, but right after than first hit, he was scarred like a little baby. Otherwise I don't see no meening in him saying all those things about him refusing to die or him saying with doubt that he has to be stronger than Naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

Check and mate.

if only you knew what you were talking about uchiha neji
werent you supposed to be watching the series over again? dont tell me you went through them all already.

ikari: no you're wrong, it wouldnt have made a difference.
while having chakra control is important for walking on water, tell me how it was important against kiba.
the entire idea behind that fight was that kiba was simply too fast for naruto to compete with. Would having control of his chakra make naruto faster? highly unlikely. Unless he started busting out the red chakra, which was the REASON for me bringing that up. Since he didnt know how to control that, then i cant see how the seal made a difference in that particular match.

and yes, haku underestimated naruto. why do i say that? because if he hadnt, then he wouldnt have taken his sweet time with his ice mirrors trick. He toyed with naruto...not because he was arrogant, but because he sorta pitied the guy, and didnt want to go all out.

and by the time gaara stopped underestimating naruto, naruto had already started going AWOL with chakra.....so it was too late

any other points i missed to counter? [img][/img]

I'm not evening going to bother argue, your to stubborn to argue with, but ikari was right. Sorry I don't study Naruto like you do.

[kenshi]

Originally posted by: wirm

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

i thought sharingan slows down movements. didn't sasuke see how lee executed lotus but couldn't react to it before the chuunin exam? also, if sharingan copies jutsus through prediction, then there would've been alot of errors (at least in the case of copying seals).

also, during the fight between kakashi and itachi, kakashi commented on the fast execution speed of jutsus from itachi. he said something along the line of how he had trouble following the seals that itachi was performing. i thought that implies of kakashi's attempt to catch the order of the seals being performed instead of predicting the entire sequence.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: uhicha neji
I'm not evening going to bother argue, your to stubborn to argue with, but ikari was right. Sorry I don't study Naruto like you do.

lol nice dodge of the discussion
i do admit when people point out details i havent thought of yet, but im yet to find that in this convo

a response like that tells me that you just want to side with someone who shares a similar opinion as you do, but you dont have a reason as to why

also.....if you admit that i study naruto more than you do.....
than that means you admit that i have a better understanding of naruto right?
looks like you contradicted yourself, bud [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[wirm]

Originally posted by: kenshi

Originally posted by: wirm

2) Sharingan doesn't slow down movement. It predicts the movement ahead of time, so that there is more time to react. This is just my opinion from what I've heard in the anime. So I'm not 100% sure.

i thought sharingan slows down movements. didn't sasuke see how lee executed lotus but couldn't react to it before the chuunin exam? also, if sharingan copies jutsus through prediction, then there would've been alot of errors (at least in the case of copying seals).

also, during the fight between kakashi and itachi, kakashi commented on the fast execution speed of jutsus from itachi. he said something along the line of how he had trouble following the seals that itachi was performing. i thought that implies of kakashi's attempt to catch the order of the seals being performed instead of predicting the entire sequence.

I thought that about the Lee vs Sasuke fight too at first. It's even trickier in the Sasuke vs Haku fight. From the animation, it sure looks like the sharingan sees things in slow motion. However, in the dialogue, I remember Haku saying to himself "pretty soon he'll be able to predict my movement". And in the Sasuke vs Gaara (partial transformation) Sasuke commented that if his sharingan wasn't predicting Gaara's movement, he'd already be dead.

I don't think that the sharingan copies through prediction. That's just weird. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I think that the prediction and copying are different aspects of the bloodline limit. Sharingan can exactly copy someone's movement (note the way Sasuke was cheating during the first exam by copying the guy in front of him). I don't think that the sharingan copies just the guy's movements (hand seals). I believe it looks into the chakra distribution/use to get the general gist of the jutsu, and the hand seals are copied incidently (not sure if I worded that right). Anyway, the use of chakra is probably the more important part of the jutsu.

In the Lee vs Sasuke fight, it didn't matter that Sasuke could see what Lee was going to do. He just wasn't fast enough to counter it.



Thinking back, when Zabuza was explaining his first defeat at the hands of Kakashi, I believe he said that Kakashi was using the sharingan to predict Zabuza's movement and stay just a little ahead of him. That's how Kakashi was able to do the seals at exactly the same time as Zabuza. As for moving ahead of him, I believe that was a combination of genjutsu and suggestion.


As for the Itachi fight, I don't think the sharingan can see that far ahead. Catching the entire sequence before hit happened would be too good [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Shinji Ikari
Now, if Naruto's chakra would have been well balanced at that time, he would have kicked Kiba's as even more. He wouldn't have needed the Kyubi chakra at all in that fight because Kiba is just too weak.

kiba is not weak. and naruto did not kick anyone's ass. kiba only lost because naruto farted in his face and the fight was pretty much won through luck. granted, naruto outsmarted kiba in some parts of the fight, but those cases were too insignificant and not damaging enough to put a hurt on kiba. kiba was way faster and stronger than naruto.

Haku did not underestimate Naruto because he never got the chance. He overestimated his own jutsu thus he thought that both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to beat him. But he never underestimated Naruto.

haku underestimated naruto. that's why haku was playing with naruto and sasuke's stupid ass the whole time. if haku had known about naruto's kyubi powers, haku would've finished him off a long time ago. in most, if not all, of naruto's fights, he is underestimated and the opponent loses because of naruto's element of surprise: kyubi chakra. look at orochimaru when he fought naruto in the forest of death, completely beat the hell out of naruto cuz he knows what the kyubi chakra capable of.