Neji fate talk

[rdkenshin]

Well what ever happens is fate I guess. If somethings about to happen and its said that its fate, then you interfere and change it, it must have been "fated" that you would change it... because you did it, and it happened. Fate doesnt make any sense to me.

[010577]

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
you guys are being idiots, this argument all comes down to the points of 'you can't say that it wasn't pre-determinted!' and 'you can't say it was!', the destiney Neji was disscusing was the status destiney (a commoner will always be a commoner, while the royality will be the royality and will be served by the commoners) and it's relation to the Hyuga clan, Jiraya was talking about the role given to Naruto by the 4th (i'm not spoiling anything, as there is nothing to spoil), which was to live with the kyubi and to always be in danger becuase of it...
you guys are disscussing destiney at it's large meaning, which is completely meanningless, just as religion and astrology....


and just to fuel the argument a bit more, if you had a super computer and you knew the speed and direction that each atom went to had at the big bang, then you could have calculated how'll they'll interact and through that, you'd have the future...

i liked the atom part.... sort of true... but not really because us moving changes the pattern and the super computer cannot predict it

[Enigmatic_Paragon]

and just to fuel the argument a bit more, if you had a super computer and you knew the speed and direction that each atom went to had at the big bang, then you could have calculated how'll they'll interact and through that, you'd have the future...

In the past, this was accepted scientific belief - just look up Determinism. It was believed that everything was predetermined, and there was no such thing as chance. This line of thinking follows from the logic that if you know the speed and velocity of say a bowling ball, you could calculate whether it will hit another bowling ball, and where that ball will go etc etc. So if you knew everything, you could rpedict their interactions as it would follow a logical sequence. Hence, according to that line of thing, there is no free will, no choice, no chance. Every thought we have, every choice we make, every event that happens is a result of previous physical interactions between countless atoms, and would have happened come hell or high water.

However with the advent of Quantum Mechanics, the accepted belief is that there is such a thing as chance, and that it is impossible for everything to be predetermined. This is because you cant know all the properties of anything at any one time. It is theoretically possible to know the speed and direction of an atom at time x, but if you know the speed and velocity it is thought to be impossible to know the exact location of it at the same time. On the flip side, if you know the exact location of an atom at time x, it is impossible to know the speed/velocity. So yeah, at least according to current theory, you cant just calculate everything.

And while were at it, its not possible to prove we exist either.

[Board of Command]

And while were at it, its not possible to prove we exist either.

Matrix style?

[Death BOO Z]

Originally posted by: Enigmatic_Paragon

However with the advent of Quantum Mechanics, the accepted belief is that there is such a thing as chance, and that it is impossible for everything to be predetermined. This is because you cant know all the properties of anything at any one time. It is theoretically possible to know the speed and direction of an atom at time x, but if you know the speed and velocity it is thought to be impossible to know the exact location of it at the same time. On the flip side, if you know the exact location of an atom at time x, it is impossible to know the speed/velocity. So yeah, at least according to current theory, you cant just calculate everything.

And while were at it, its not possible to prove we exist either.

you're talking about the "you can't determinate an atom's determinate speed and position, becuase in order to know it's speed, you need to have it pass between two points, and in order to know it's position, you must pause it"?

heard about it once, ain't sure what it means, though... my point in the previous post was just to say that all the 'fate' talk is stupid, becuase you can never truely say wheather you chose what to do, or wheather you merely think so...

oh, and also like to pretend i know pyshics, even though I stopped learnning it as soon as i could, and i barely finished my last class...

[Board of Command]

Physics is your best friend. Guns don't kill people, PHYSICS DO!!

(btw, if you're clueless, that's a excerpt from 3rd Rock from the Sun, and I can't get it out of my head)

[kupalmaru]

I agree with Neji.

If it is your destiny to break your fate, then you will break your fate.

Neji's comment to Naruto are wrong because he don't know what Naruto's fate is.

I agree with rdkenshin

[Elrone]

Originally posted by: Enigmatic_Paragon

In the past, this was accepted scientific belief - just look up Determinism. It was believed that everything was predetermined, and there was no such thing as chance. This line of thinking follows from the logic that if you know the speed and velocity of say a bowling ball, you could calculate whether it will hit another bowling ball, and where that ball will go etc etc. So if you knew everything, you could rpedict their interactions as it would follow a logical sequence. Hence, according to that line of thing, there is no free will, no choice, no chance. Every thought we have, every choice we make, every event that happens is a result of previous physical interactions between countless atoms, and would have happened come hell or high water.

However with the advent of Quantum Mechanics, the accepted belief is that there is such a thing as chance, and that it is impossible for everything to be predetermined. This is because you cant know all the properties of anything at any one time. It is theoretically possible to know the speed and direction of an atom at time x, but if you know the speed and velocity it is thought to be impossible to know the exact location of it at the same time. On the flip side, if you know the exact location of an atom at time x, it is impossible to know the speed/velocity. So yeah, at least according to current theory, you cant just calculate everything.

But whilst Determinism is technically true it's doesn't actually deal with the problem of consciousness. If you act like everything is determined then all your actions will go along that perceived path of fate. if you act like everything is not determined then things are whatever you make them. It's quite simple and not worth worrying about.

Of course the real question of fate comes in when you consider that if things are pre-determined then they must be determined by someone. Basically another silly argument about gods.

My advice is just stick with whatever is right for the moment and have no regrets then you'll be Ok.

[Jessper]

Originally posted by: kupalmaru
I agree with Neji.

If it is your destiny to break your fate, then you will break your fate.

Neji's comment to Naruto are wrong because he don't know what Naruto's fate is.

I agree with rdkenshin

That doesn't make any sense though, if it is your destiny to break your fate then it you were doing what was your destiny so you in fact didn't break your fate as you put it. Either way there is no real way to tell.

[PSJ]

isnt fate and destiny more or less the same thing?

[Jessper]

Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
isnt fate and destiny more or less the same thing?

ya, I only used two instead of one because kupalmaru did =)

[jing]

First of all how do you know if your even destined to being with? How can you also be certain that it IS your destiny to do this and to do that?

[kupalmaru]

Originally posted by: jing
First of all how do you know if your even destined to being with? How can you also be certain that it IS your destiny to do this and to do that?

That is why Neji's fate talk about Naruto's is wrong, because Neji don't know Naruto's fate. You need to be an oracle or somethjng to predict.

If your father is a fisherman, Neji think that your are going to be also a fisherman. Probably this is what Neji have in mind about fate. Neji don't think that you can be a scientist or something.

But Neji is right about fate already being written for someone. Like Jing said the only problem is you dont know the future or your destiny.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: kupalmaru
[/b][/b][/i]
I agree with Neji.
If it is your destiny to break your fate, then you will break your fate.
Neji's comment to Naruto are wrong because he don't know what Naruto's fate is.
I agree with rdkenshin[/quote]

My bad about this post.

[Halo2298]

Ah, a deep philosophical argument. Well, who's to say whether fate is pre-determined or not? I mean, people will argue that you do things because you chose to do them. But are you really choosing them? Maybe fate is forcing you to choose them while giving you the illusion of free will. One of the early posts says something about "You open your eyes because you chose to close them." But DID you choose to close them? Perhaps they were going to close at that moment regardless of what you decided. You have to realize, though, there's already one future ahead of us... It might not exist yet, but it will only turn out one way. Are we choosing that? Or is it turning out the only way it can? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] So. ... That's it.

[Jessper]

Originally posted by: Halo2298
Ah, a deep philosophical argument. Well, who's to say whether fate is pre-determined or not? I mean, people will argue that you do things because you chose to do them. But are you really choosing them? Maybe fate is forcing you to choose them while giving you the illusion of free will. One of the early posts says something about "You open your eyes because you chose to close them." But DID you choose to close them? Perhaps they were going to close at that moment regardless of what you decided. You have to realize, though, there's already one future ahead of us... It might not exist yet, but it will only turn out one way. Are we choosing that? Or is it turning out the only way it can? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] So. ... That's it.

Well, fate is pre-determined, thats the idea of the word =P But ya, there is no way for me at very least to tell if fate is controlling what we do or not but I can belive what I wish(or can I? oooheoooohhh) and arguing is going to do very little.

[spanks]

nice to see a bit of intelligent thinking outside of naruto rather than just

"ITS ANIME FFS GET A LIFE?!"

anyway with the quantum mechanics thing, i think the principle is as the universe is infinite a particle at any given time must be by definition at the centre of the universe, you can determine its speed but its impossible to determine its direction as there is no scale (think of the universe as an infinite x/y/z/ axis), thats what i was lead to beleive anyway (my area is mechanical physics [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img])

thats extremely simplified by the way as i cant remember the exact details so feel free to correct me

[Masakari]

The choices we make affect our future. Too many people think that believing in fate means that your future is something you do not control. Even if fate is the power behind the universe, we still walk the pathes it laid for us. Though fate doesn't necessarily make sense, when you think about it. What is fate? Some god? Is it an existence? If it isn't, what is it? Oh it's the theory that all of life is pre-determined... okay, predetermined by what? Where is this information stored? Is there some universal databank where all information of everything is stored from the beginning to the end of time, that of which there is no beginning nor no end, which would make it an infinite database, unless there is an end, but if there's an end there is also a beginning, a beginning created from nothing. Theoretically we shouldn't even exist. (Don't want to delve further into that though...)

Anyway if fate is the governing power around us, and all the choices we make are an illusion of free will, something comes to mind. "An illusion is reality from the person experiencing it" Shion said something like that in Xenosaga, and it's something to think about if you think we are living an illusion.

I agree with whoever said that the author of this topic is thinking too much into it, and also with the person who said Neji wasn't referring to free-will versus fate, but a system of social classes in which he was born a winner/genius and Naruto was born a loser/drop out and there was no way he could change that.

[Enigmatic_Paragon]

But whilst Determinism is technically true it's doesn't actually deal with the problem of consciousness. If you act like everything is determined then all your actions will go along that perceived path of fate. if you act like everything is not determined then things are whatever you make them. It's quite simple and not worth worrying about.

I think you misunderstand. Under a deterministic model, everything right down to your thoughts - which are under the model believed to be the result of complex chemical reactions in your brain will follow a set path from which there is no deviation. Every choice we make, is only the result of prior chemical interactions leaving our brain in such a state as to result in determining the next choice. Our "Free Will" is hence only an illusion under this model, as everythign from what you think to what you do is following a set path.
To give an example, If someone outside the universe were to wave a magic wand and create a totally identical universe to ours when it was created, and now - some many billions of years later we were to compare the two, under the deterministic model they would still be totally identical. Everyone would have made exactly the same choices, and had the same thoughts, the winds and currents would have moved in the same ways, the same stars would be in the same place, and on that hypothetical universe, there would be someone with a nick of Enigmatic_Paragon typing exactly the same thing, with the exact same timing - right now in fact! The key here is that free will is only an illusion - if you decide to try and fight fate, it is only because of the way the chemical interactions in your brain have played out. Of course, nothing is stopping you from taking part of that illusion, and "fighting fate" as it were. Just keep in mind under this model, whether you decide to or not is already "predetermined". =)

Of course the real question of fate comes in when you consider that if things are pre-determined then they must be determined by someone. Basically another silly argument about gods.

Again, I disagree. Why must something that is pre-determined be determined by someone/something? What would prevent them from simply following out a sequence of events? A deterministic model does not require the presense of supernatural entities.

However when we talk about the creation of the universe, that is where one might argue about religion. This comes back to the argument that something cannot come from nothing - IE The universe cannot simply have always "existed" - how was it created? Physicists have come up with the Big Bang model which most of you have likely heard of and are familiar with. What most probably *dont* know, is that the model actually only starts moments *after* a hypothetical explosion. We can gather data about our universe and extrapolate back, giving us what we interpret as data indicating the universe expanded from an explosion. However as we go further and further back towards the point of the explosion, we start running into too many infinities to continue calculations - hence, we only calculate back to a point where we say "At this point, it looks like the universe has just exploded moments before" but we can only speculate as to what happened before that moment. Conventially, questions about what was before that point as considered meaningless by physicists but to my understanding that is beginning to change. At any rate the point where religion comes in is questions such as "where did the matter for an explosion come from?" and "What caused the explosion?". As far as I am aware, physics fails to answer those questions (however there are other theories contending with the Big Bang theory that do manage to explain the creation of matter..... albiet in amost convoluted manner) Of course things get far more complex than my explaination, and if you really want to know perhaps you had better take a physics course in university =)

Anyways, Ive wandered waaaay of topic but thats Determinism 101 for you.


Oh yeah.... 1 final thing. Neji has such a defetist attitude! I want to see him ground into dust by not only Naruto, but Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kabuto, Gaara and if its not totally impossible, Hinata and Sakura as well. Oh yeah, and Lee too. I want to see his defeted eyes!



................ Whaaaaaat? He was asking for it!

[Einzelgänger]

Enigmatic you have a great way at looking at things. Well you understand some things better anyway. Neji is a defetist, he does deserve to be beaten into a pulp.

Fate is a mute point, we will never know if fate controles our action or not, we shouldn't wast time thinking on it, though if you have to and still don't know how its works it basicly like a movie, or an anime, that has been made. The chars in those films or shows have done something, and no matter how many times you replay that movie or show it stays the same, that is the main principle of Fate, no matter what you are doing what you were meant to do, you 100% cannot change it, it is set in stone.

I hate that way of thinking. It's stupid, and anyway in the end it makes no diffrence, as long as you try to lead your life according to your will you cannot have regrets. Think of it this way, even if fate controles life, free will is still in place, you are making the decision even if it has been laid out, even if it has been predicted, it makes no diffrence, your will is your own. Even if you "follow" fates path its still of your free will, only thing that has happened is it was predicted.

Just my look on it though.

[GhostKaGe]

fate is the illusion of free will