Strongest in Akatsuki?

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Kalean

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
OOO WITHOUT BYUKAGAN NEJI WOULD SUCK TOO AND NOT ONLY THAT, SO WOULD NARUTO WITHOUT HIS KYUBI. GOOD POINT GENIUS.

Actually, Neji is still extremely fast and skilled in hand to hand combat, not particularly needing his byakugan to completely and utterly make a joke out of Naruto's attempts at close combat, and good enough to take out at least 20 clones at the same time before being 'smart' enough to know which clone to attack. Granted it was a feint on Naruto's part, but that goes more to naruto's skill than to any lack of skill or overall awesomeness on Neji's part. Which brings me to Naruto. Naruto is already a stamina freak WITHOUT the Kyuubi. He made all 100 of the clones he fought Neji with of his own chakra, and later on against Gaara in the same day, he did successfully create another 4,000 (The manga counted for us) clones ALSO of his own chakra. He didn't use the Kyuubi's chakra until at the VERY earliest he summoned Gama Bunta, because of lines stating that 'doing all that used up my chakra', but it's even possible that he summoned gama bunta without the Kyuubi, although I'd say that's highly unlikely. Regardless, Naruto and Sasuke tricked Zabuza without any usage of Kyuubi OR Sharingan, and freed Kakashi. Naruto can use the rasengan without the Kyuubi's chakra, and thus technically beat KABUTO with his own strength and freaky kind of willpower. Without using Kyuubi's chakra he double faked out Sakon, and got up after MANY of Kiba's fang strikes, which we HAVE established are really damn strong, and took care of the enemy genjutsu team in the chuunin exams almost entirely on his own. Noone can say that Naruto would suck without his Kyuubi, it's just a part of him that is very useful in certain situations, but hardly necessary for all. Of course, I don't think Sasuke sucks without the Sharingan, but your point is just immature AND incorrect. Thought I'd point that out.

The rock paper scissors theory does work on appropriate individuals. There could easily be a ninja near the head of Akatsuki who was just so rawly cheap or so wildly unconventional that noone else could defeat him, even if they were stronger and faster, and possibly even more skilled. Think about Gaara in his most recent battle and his underground sinking pressure move. That's about as cheap as you can get, short of making the enemy inhale sand and crushing/exploding them from the inside. But because Naruto only fought him on the trees, that move was hardly an option. Also, Naruto would never have pierced Gaara's sand shield without the rasengan, but because of differing circumstances, in mid transformation, Gaara did not HAVE the sand shield. Otherwise Gaara would've been the rock to Naruto's scissors, as it were. The theory does have a lot of merit, because for EVERY character in Naruto, there is a character that could completely own them. Naruto's chakra DOESN'T TURN OFF, making him a pain in the ass for Neji, as was Kidoumaru who was by design anti close combat, and pro horde-attacks. Of course, Neji would be the perfect counter for Jiroubou (the overweight sound nin) because no matter how strong that guy is, he isn't fast enough to come close to stopping the Hakke, and as Kakashi said, no matter how strong someone is, they can't train their inner body. So Neji would have OWNED that guy rather quickly. There are quite a few examples of this (Kankuro being a good match against Sakon and Ukon, for example) throughout the series, and they will continue to persist. If you can't deal with it, you really shouldn't be reading the manga, because EVERYONE in the manga has weaknesses. Even the third and Orochimaru have serious weaknesss. The third was seriously limited on Chakra, Orochimaru is seriously limited in foresight, and even more limited by his own ambitions. Kimimaro was mostly close combat and fighting for the wrong 'teacher' who showed no concern about him whatsoever. Without the curse seal level 2, Gaara would have completely destroyed him without the fight even becoming remotely close. It's just the way it works. One would think you could've figured that out on your own, but if I have to point it out then so be it...

wow, it's like you have something against me or something.

well, you think you are god damn smart. but you fail to realize the whole point of me posting "OOO WITHOUT BYUKAGAN NEJI WOULD SUCK TOO AND NOT ONLY THAT, SO WOULD NARUTO WITHOUT HIS KYUBI. GOOD POINT GENIUS." was to prove that saying "itachi sucks without his sharingan" is stupid because we all know he is awesome without it. but no, you decided to read what i wrote and comprehend it on your own retarded way without viewing the other possible meanings while acting like a fucking smartass jumping on an opportunity to disprove me (which is impossible). no shit neji and naruto are awesome without it, we've seen many examples of it. do you think i'd just look over them or i don't know these things? i don't have to prove my knowledge of naruto to you, newb. so let me return your shit back to you: your point is just immature AND incorrect. Though I'd point that out.

and as for the rock, paper, scissors theory... if you can't figure out why that theory doesn't work then you're just not gonna make it in life. you should get a medal for just being able to not choke on your own tongue while sleeping and then wake up in the morning.

EDIT: no, fuck it. i'll show you an example where rock, paper, scissors theory cannot apply. the last fight we saw (between lee, gaara, and kimimaro). first let me get this clear: lee and gaara would've both died if kimimaro was not sick. even gaara admitted that they would've been gotten their ass kicked. but you might think of this to say: "no, gaara would've used his sand to protect himself." wrong, you clown. gaara's sand only protected him when the tanuki came out and he used the strongest minerals from the ground. not only, is it quite hard to do that when you're in the air but we've already seen that kimimaro can break through walls of sand. so therefore, i just proved that gaara and lee would've been toast if it weren't for kimimaro's illness. ANYWAY, getting back to my main point... with what i said about how gaara and lee would've died, that just shows you that rock, paper, scissors theory does not work on all cases. it only works when certain factors are thrown in with appropriate individuals, such as kimimaro's illness.

here's a better example... hmmm, let's just mix up random characters and see if the rock, paper, scissors theory still applies. itachi vs hinata vs sakura. wow, lookie here. *looks down as the rock, paper, scissors theory goes down the shitter*

[Tofu #2]

thats like the biggest burn ever.

+1

[Kalean]

A) My problem was not actually with you, but with the people who bought into your sarcastic remark, therefore I was pointing out that it shouldn't be taken seriously, because the people that see a remark like that, take it seriously, and jump on the forum to comment, really piss me off. It's good to know that you're so extremely defensive, however. I'll keep that in mind.

B) The entire Kimimaro arc was a walking problem. At the end when Gaara and Lee were going to be beaten, the mangaka was being rather un-intelligent, as he had been for several chapters. Kimimaro was mentioned to be slower after his transformation into level 2 because of his new setup (He lengthened his spinal chord into a tail, you'd be a little disoriented too.) and yet, as he pops out of the bone (implausible, but it's Naruto, we'll ignore that.) Lee just sits there like an idiot. While Gaara might have needed to summon his rather stupid looking Shukaku shield again to save himself, all it would've taken was for Lee to just do what he always does when someone tries to kill him. Kick Kimimaro in the face. At that juncture, Kimimaro was only half out of the bone, he was a perfect target for a beating. But again, there were a lot of problems with that little fight. If Kimimaro had not had the ability to teleport through his bones (which again, is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen, although not THE most.) then Gaara would've been the perfect opponent for him. We noticed how Gaara completely bested him on every front. Mainly because Kimimaro was a melee attacker. The fact is that through that entire fight Kimimaro was losing VERY badly, and they just threw in the impossible teleport to make it seem like he wasn't completely outclassed. It appeared that Naruto would've lost to Kimimaro (although we all know that if that last sword had hit it would've been a shadow clone, that's just the way the manga works. ) and yet we all know Naruto is even more ridiculously powerful than Kimimaro by a lot, and definately a lot more creative. Some fighting styles just work better against certain others, which is the whole point of the rock paper scissors debate. I'm not saying that everyone can beat someone, for example, unless you count Ino, Sakura can't beat... well... anyone. Same goes for Ino, really, although she at least has a few quirks that make her special. But Chouji's meat tank beat Zaku's air pressure cannon easily, because spinning objects are only fueled by that kind of attack. It's not a particularly difficult thing to understand really. There could very easily be someone in Akatsuki that Itachi is stronger than, faster than, or just plain more skilled than, and could still soundly defeat him. Kisame just might be stronger than Kakashi (I certainly hope he is actually, otherwise that'd be sad) but that doesn't mean that Kakashi couldn't defeat him. It's just the way it works. It's hard to have an even fight with people that fight completely differently. The rock paper scissors concept isn't meant to apply to everyone vs. everyone, but rather meant to simplify for people that don't seem to get it, that it's not simple math as to who could defeat whom. If you fail to understand the point of the simplification, and try to belittle it without understanding the concept behind it, you really don't gain much. The fact that we have no idea what is going on in the world of Akatsuki means that if we want to theorize about it, it requires intelligent thought behind it. Denying that some people are just plain perfect to fight other people, is incorrect. Kidoumaru was practically designed to fight Neji (Entire body defense to protect himself from the Hakke, Ninja spiders [wtf, anyway?] with sticky webbing to stop the Kaiten's spin... Infinite ammo because of his techniques so that he can assault Neji from *EVERY* direction to find the weakness in the byakugan, massively powerful ranged attacks with perfect accuracy from outside the Byakugan's range that can be adjusted to compensate for him turning his head and removing the blindspot? That's quite a list of anti-Neji stuff right there.) and Gaara's improvements were pretty much designed to make him own Kimimaro, they just decided to go ahead make Kimimaro not look like a loser, probably because they liked the character a lot. As the power tiers rise, and the flexibility of a ninja increases, it becomes less and less likely that there is someone who just plain outclasses them because of their method of fighting rather than their skill or strength necessarily. However, it is quite probable that there is someone in Akatsuki who does not belong, and is only in there because of some cheap technique or ability they have, or a cheap set, thereof. It's very common in anime, especially in the 'group of 9 evil people' that is prevalent in everything from Kenshin to Trigun and now Naruto. Zazie the beast was only in the gung ho guns because he had technology to control animals, and when that was taken away, well, he sucks. The old half of the hagun didn't belong, but because he came with Fuji, he was in the team. Now if there's any Mangaka to defy predictability, it's Kishimoto, but... don't count on it.

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On a sidenote, that doesn't belong in this thread, but I'm too lazy to place anywhere else, Kimimaro's fight showed a greater ignorance of physics and human anatomy with every chapter. First and foremost, Kimimaro's bloodline (which was 'scientfically' explained, a major mistake since the explanation doesn't make sense) was the ability to manipulate bones. Barring the horrid explanation for that, we can accept this. However, every time a bone or group of bones rips out of his body, a panel or two later, he's completely healed. I don't recall him having a HEALING bloodline, as well. People who want to give me the "It's a technique like Tsunade's" crap should be silent before they post. Tsunade's the only one who can do that, that's what makes it unique. Moving on. Ignoring the james bond-esque 'I'm fine in the next panel' happenstance, we next note that Kimimaro makes 'bone masks' under his skin to protect himself from the desert coffin. Up to this point, I was still excited. However, what he should have done, make an exoskeleton for his 2nd curse seal form, was not done, and when he was caught in the desert coffin, the fight should have been over. The crushing force of the dessert coffin would still have completely and utterly DESTROYED his skin, leaving nothing but a bloody mess, because it would then be squeezing the skin against nigh-adamantium bones. Besides which, I don't think he really created bone masks under his eyes, they should've been crushed into his head. However, none of that matters because upon creating bone masks underneath his skin, he would've severed every ligament in his body and instantaneously lost the fight as he would no longer be able to move correctly. Moving on from this, he then proceeds to, not unexpectedly, use his spinal chord as a whip sword. Not a problem due to his ability, but rather the place at which he yanked it out of his back. That's not only impossible to do from that angle considering the new length of his spinal chord, but would also kill him instantly, as growing the bone out there would displace the delicate cartiledge discs there and basically do the same thing as someone dissecting your spinal chord. If it had grown out the small of his back, however, would be a logical and safe place to grow the bone out from, as from that point onwards it was mainly false tail anyways, and there is the least worry about injury there. Of course none of this matters either because he was running at full speed while doing this, which is blatantly impossible. We won't get into the whole 'performing Jutsu while immobilized underground' thing, and of course the part where he turns himself and all his vital organs into bone so that he can escape his prison, and then detransforms back into a humanoid form so that he can bleed from his mouth, because those aren't improbable to impossible level thing at all. Does this comment belong here? No. Am I an idiot for posting it here? Quite possibly. Know what? Don't care.