Is genjutsu more than just "illusion"

[Uchiha Barles]

I read somewhere that the hand seals used to perform jutsu are simply a motion component that replaces the verbal component traditionally used in spell casting. This came from an interview done with the creator of naruto. So, if that's the case, then jutsu is magic and I'm wondering if genjutsu (even if it litterally means illusion) is more than just illusion, like charm spells (which is what I think Itachi used). The total darkness technique also seemed like it was more than illusion, just not quite a direct damage or defense attack. Same with zabuza's mist. What do you think?

[Mut]

genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

[Uchiha Barles]

Sounds about right, but lets say the total darkness technique, would someone outside of it's area of effect be able to see into it, even they weren't there when it was cast?

[-ANBU-Sasuke-]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

Itachi stated "just because this is an illusion, don't think the pain is fake" or something along those lines. It manipulates the sense of Pain, so therefore tricking your mind and inflicting physical pain. Tsukuyomi, is a mental world, and is manipulated as the user wishes.

Genjutsu is Normaly not real (Tsukuyomi is an exception), it as Mut@t@ said, it only tricks the mind into feeling emotions, and ect. So genjutsu can be concidered more than a illusion, it can be very real, depending on how your mind interprets it.

Zabuza's Mist? It just created extra extra mist. thats about it, or at least it created a false mist. or which ever.

I might be totatly wrong or right, its about 85 degrees here and i cant think!

[Mut]

Originally posted by: -ANBU-Sasuke-

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

Itachi stated "just because this is an illusion, don't think the pain is fake" or something along those lines. It manipulates the sense of Pain, so therefore tricking your mind and inflicting physical pain. Tsukuyomi, is a mental world, and is manipulated as the user wishes.

Genjutsu is Normaly not real (Tsukuyomi is an exception), it as Mut@t@ said, it only tricks the mind into feeling emotions, and ect. So genjutsu can be concidered more than a illusion, it can be very real, depending on how your mind interprets it.

Zabuza's Mist? It just created extra extra mist. thats about it, or at least it created a false mist. or which ever.

I might be totatly wrong or right, its about 85 degrees here and i cant think!

i'm not sure if i am understanding you correctly but you're saying that tsukuyomi makes you to inflict physical pain by tricking your mind...? if that's so then i'd have to disagree with you. there is NO way the mind can inflict physical pain. kakashi was not bleeding anywhere. if tsukuyomi did trick kakashi's mind to cause actual physical pain, then we would've seen kakashi with thousand stab wounds on his body, bleeding everywhere. tsukuyomi made the mind think that kakashi felt the pain but there weren't any physical damage.

[Himura_san]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: -ANBU-Sasuke-

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

Itachi stated "just because this is an illusion, don't think the pain is fake" or something along those lines. It manipulates the sense of Pain, so therefore tricking your mind and inflicting physical pain. Tsukuyomi, is a mental world, and is manipulated as the user wishes.

Genjutsu is Normaly not real (Tsukuyomi is an exception), it as Mut@t@ said, it only tricks the mind into feeling emotions, and ect. So genjutsu can be concidered more than a illusion, it can be very real, depending on how your mind interprets it.

Zabuza's Mist? It just created extra extra mist. thats about it, or at least it created a false mist. or which ever.

I might be totatly wrong or right, its about 85 degrees here and i cant think!

i'm not sure if i am understanding you correctly but you're saying that tsukuyomi makes you to inflict physical pain by tricking your mind...? if that's so then i'd have to disagree with you. there is NO way the mind can inflict physical pain. kakashi was not bleeding anywhere. if tsukuyomi did trick kakashi's mind to cause actual physical pain, then we would've seen kakashi with thousand stab wounds on his body, bleeding everywhere. tsukuyomi made the mind think that kakashi felt the pain but there weren't any physical damage.

I am not bio major but if you cut your finger there is information relayed to your brain that lets the brain know that you are damaged. If someone gets in a traumatic accident the brain will recieve certain signals that will make it command the body to release certain chemicals to suppress the pain. This is referred to as a state of shock. These chemicals are equal in power to morphine and if enough is released in the body, that person may even become comatose or die. In reality with no physical damage, if certain signals are sent to the brain the brain can "kill" the body.
I think this is what happened to Kakashi where he went into a state of shock and eventually passed out for a couple days.
Again I'm no bio major or anything. ;p

[miaka]

i think what tsukuyomi does is.. it does not inflict physical damage.. but it's totally strong genjitsu that you can't get out of it by just telling your brain it's not real... he gets them into a world where he can create almost anything.. adn tricks ppl... with kakashi.. i do not really think he actually was damaging kakashi's soul.. prob just was tricking him... but it seems to be a quite strong genjitsu like i mentioned

[?igma]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

It is stated in various episodes that Genjutsu definately CAN harm you physically, for your mind thinks its real and cant get back to reality.(one of them was when Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura were heading for the exams through the woods)
Lets say, you get shot bad and because of the trauma, you believe that your legs were shot off .. Do you really think it mathers wether your legs are still on even though you could see they are ? Cases like that even happen to "real"people in THIS world. Check the news//history more often about war-casualties, vietnam etc.
Although the attack on kakashi was different, It STILL wore out his body , meaning that his whole body was activated to prevent to much pain entering the cerebral core. Meaning that the brain thought the dmg was real, meaning that Kakashi too thought it was real EVEN though he KNEW otherwise.

[ShinobiNeko]

well...that's why it's a strong and dangerous genjutsu

[orn210]

that could be true too

[Uchiha-Itachi]

Tsukuyomi can kill a person though..

[Mut]

Originally posted by: ?igma
It is stated in various episodes that Genjutsu definately CAN harm you physically, for your mind thinks its real and cant get back to reality.(one of them was when Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura were heading for the exams through the woods)

can you be more specific on this? which parts?

[ShinobiNeko]

v_v dont' insult Itachi like that.....biggest insult ... sakura... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[miaka]

i think it's biggest insult for Itachi to say sakura can get out of that.. i mean... V_V.. and mak3 please don't call sakura genjitsu specialist.. cause she's so not..i do not wanna repeat myself.. so look at pg 3 on resemblence.. if you wanna know why i think that.. actually sasuke kinda is....cause he's usually the one to figure out before any of the teammate does...

and anyways.. yea right.. the day sakura beat Itachi when sasuke, and kakashi can't.. will be the day that the anime title changes to sakura..

EditL genjitsu itself can't physically hurt ppl.. but they can use illusion as advantage to inflict physical damage on the opponent

[?igma]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: ?igma
It is stated in various episodes that Genjutsu definately CAN harm you physically, for your mind thinks its real and cant get back to reality.(one of them was when Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura were heading for the exams through the woods)

can you be more specific on this? which parts?

Sorry for the late response, I was on a festival (Dynamo Open Air) So I'm kinda broken [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
I think that was right before or inside an illusion made by some other threesome (dont get me wrong, I havent got all the episodes due to a serious fucking Sasser-virus (got router now [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]) they walk rounds all the time and once they discover it, they have to fight a bunch of illusionary enemies, created by the three to wear them out.
I think Kabuto stated it.

[Uchiha Barles]

Actually, the replications were in fact illusions that can't hurt you. What was happening then was that the real ninjas were hiding and in the surroundings and attacking, using the replications as cover, so that Naruto's team wouldn't find their hiding place. Episode 36.

[SaSuKeRuLeS]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
genjutsu messes with the five senses; sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. it can't do any actual physical damage. from what we've seen tsukuyomi is aimed for the the opponents' hearing, sight, and touch. i don't know about smell and touch since that's not clearly shown. it didn't do any physical damage to the actual body but it made kakashi's mind think that the body was stabbed for however long it was.

its kinda like the matrix you get hurt in the matrix then ur body gets hurt too....

[miaka]

no it's not...in matrix... you really can't get out of that.. but with genjitsu you can.... if you have strong will...

[Uchiha Barles]

I'm kind of agreeing with sigma here. Genjustsu will never do anything like cut off a leg, or put a bullet in a brain. But the thing that causes the damage is the way the body reacts to it. The biochemistry involved becomes disrupted, and that's what kills. I think that, if you can trick the mind into responding to the genjutsu in that manner, then you really could take someones life with it, or paralyses them. If any damage were caused, it would be limited to neurological damage because genjutsu affects the brain. No matter how hard you try, you'll never cause any damage to a door knob with genjutsu (no brain), that's for sure.

The indication of that being true is when Itachi said that the pain was not fake. I take that to mean that his body chemistry was reacting as if there were stab wounds. Not everything, just the nervous and endocrine systems (he should have been spewing adrenaline like crazy. In fact...that might have been the cause of his physical exhaution.)

Another way that genjutsu might work to cause actual damage, is to scare the living shit out of someone. Specially old people. If you make something sufficiently frightning, you might be able to cause that person to have a heart attack...like giving a surprise party to your 100 yr old grandmother...

[?igma]

Originally posted by: Uchiha Barles
I'm kind of agreeing with sigma here. Genjustsu will never do anything like cut off a leg, or put a bullet in a brain. But the thing that causes the damage is the way the body reacts to it. The biochemistry involved becomes disrupted, and that's what kills. I think that, if you can trick the mind into responding to the genjutsu in that manner, then you really could take someones life with it, or paralyses them. If any damage were caused, it would be limited to neurological damage because genjutsu affects the brain. No matter how hard you try, you'll never cause any damage to a door knob with genjutsu (no brain), that's for sure.

The indication of that being true is when Itachi said that the pain was not fake. I take that to mean that his body chemistry was reacting as if there were stab wounds. Not everything, just the nervous and endocrine systems (he should have been spewing adrenaline like crazy. In fact...that might have been the cause of his physical exhaution.)

Another way that genjutsu might work to cause actual damage, is to scare the living shit out of someone. Specially old people. If you make something sufficiently frightning, you might be able to cause that person to have a heart attack...like giving a surprise party to your 100 yr old grandmother...

Thank you, well put [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]