ok ppl try to understand this, if a genin was strong enough to be a jounin he would be, thats why theres ppl like Kakashi and Itachi who were chunnin and jounin at very young ages. if the genin is not strong enough to be a jounin, then how can he/she possibly have the power to beat one. because there is a huge gap between them.
when you guys are saying that genins arent stronger than jounins, youre only comparing them to the super ultra high level jounins (kakashi, itachi, ect..). wouldn't you think that a high level genin like sasuke or lee(ones that dont have demon powers) would be able to beat an average jounin?
Is there such thing as a average jounnin? I doubt it.
I would think a jounnin's a jounnin, he should be at the high already, not everybody becomes Jounnin's..
Thus I don't think there are average Jounnins. Even a 'new' Jounnin (Like Kurenai) should be able to kick lots of Chunnin's asses.
However, there's legendary jounnins like the three sannins. Their Jounnin's that have been around for a very long time and greatly experienced. That is all. Their just being recognized for being exeptional and great in their time. But their still Jounnins.
Like I said before, this is to my perception, although this is clearly speculation because honestly, I don't think Kishimoto thinks that far when he started the ranking :
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Gennins = Ninja's that still need supervision (By the Jounnins), but can carry out simple-normal missions.
Chunnins = Ninja working class - We got the Anbu's, the medics, academy teachers. (Most ppl would eventually become chunnins, only the very talented one's become chunnins faster).
Probably won't have any teachers to supervise them, they should learn the skills by themselves or have some special classes that teach them like in Universities (Like we've seen some Anbu training classes).. No special supervision by the Jounnin's. Chunnins are the workforce of the ninja village.
Jounnins = Leader's and specialists. They command chunnins and gennins.
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MmmMmm. Ooiiishiii
Wow, after reading all those arguments I finally get to reply. Alot of people make a lot of good cases as to whether a jounin could kick any genin's ass, so I'm going to throw my 2 cents in.
There is another example of a genin kicking a jounin's ass. Even though it was a crappy show, the Naruto Ova showed this "ultra" powerful jounin who got beat by Naruto and Sasuke. If you count the fact that Sasuke still had his original clothes and Naruto was able to gather Chakra from the Nine-tails that the "episode" fell after the 2nd exam, because Sakura's hair is short, but before the Itachi episode. There is a clear example of a jounin who even became "ultra" powerful and lost... aka: Leaf Jounin's are probably far more superior than other country's Jounins... or at least the main character. Either way, this shows an example. But for the sake of argument, let's throw this episode out... esp. since it sucked.
Chunin's are NOT stronger than all Genin. A Chunin just has the leadership ability and maturity to lead a squad. If you read all the manga, you'll see more examples as to how some Genin can be logically equal to some Jounin.
It seems that most everyone will agree that Itachi is a Jounin, and if that's the case then Haku is too. I'm not saying they are equal by far, but the case is that Zabuza and Kakashi were Jounin and they said Haku was better, hence Haku is at least Jounin Level. Just because he wasn't officially named a Jounin doesn't mean he wasn't one... Because if that's your case then Itachi never became a Jounin either. He fled while he was still an ANBU leader.
But in reality, let's look at the facts here... The main characters are NOT normal Genin. A NORMAL genin would most likely lose to a NORMAL jounin. But with the case of the main characters: Naruto, Sasuke, Neji, Gaara... all these guys probably could beat a Jounin. I don't think that they could beat Kakashi or the other Leaf Jounins, because most of them are genius themselves. It's one thing to have a lot of power but there's no good in all that power if you have no strategy or smarts about it. The reason Genins are Genins is because they lack the mental maturity to lead. If their rank was based soley off power, then why in the world would they constantly want to CALM DOWN in fights? You could have twice the Chakra, but it's useless if you can't even hit the enemy.
To sum it up, the main characters are a very talented group of Genin. Some of them may be on equal par as far as power with Jounin (Gaara and Naruto with their demon possesion), while some are equal as far as intellect (Shikamaru)... But being a Jounin is having and being able to utilize both. A powerful Genin could be a "stupid or careless" Jounin (assuming they are smarter or catches them off guard) and a Smart Genin could beat a "weak" Jounin (assuming the Genin was more powerful/more stamina).
Just what I think...
Just new to this forums and a big Naruto fan (got hooked cause of ep 81 that i thought of giving a try, after that i dl'ed all the A/A eps and watched em in 1 weekend [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]).
I just had to sign in to reply to this topic [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
You can't really say a Genin can/cannot defeat a Chunin, or a Chunin defeat a Jounin, cause every person has his/her own speciality..
When someone has a speciality in some kind of jutsu while the opposite person lacks a defence at that particular jutsu, a Genin can even defeat a Jounin.
By example, with the 8 Gates stuff Rock Lee could defeat... lets say... the dude with the cigarette in his mouth? (forgot his name).
Maybe this aint such a good example, but think about it...
I don't think Haku was close to Kakashi in terms of strength, however Zabuza maybe (i don't rate Zabuza).
I mean Haku got killed by Kakashi's chidori, if he was so powerful he could have countered it or somthing.
Kakashi also smacked the crap out of zabuza afterwards. I know Kakashi got done by the water prison, however, i think that scenario was created as a twist and an oppenning for Naruto and Sasuke.
It wouldn't have been a great saga if Kakashi killed Zabuza that early.
Maybe Haku could have countered that Chidori from Kakashi, but i think he just didnt want to...Originally posted by: mak3
I don't think Haku was close to Kakashi in terms of strength, however Zabuza maybe (i don't rate Zabuza).
I mean Haku got killed by Kakashi's chidori, if he was so powerful he could have countered it or somthing.
Kakashi also smacked the crap out of zabuza afterwards. I know Kakashi got done by the water prison, however, i think that scenario was created as a twist and an oppenning for Naruto and Sasuke.
U know he wanted Naruto to kill him, that was because Naruto was stronger than him (when half posessed by Nine-Tails) so he wasnt worthy battling for Zabuza anymore (Zabuza needed a strong boy as a tool) and he sacrificed himself to save Zabuza
If that would be so then we might have not met HakuOriginally posted by: mak3
It wouldn't have been a great saga if Kakashi killed Zabuza that early.
Huh? Sacrificing himself for no reason? If he could counter it, he would have. I doubt 'he just didn't wanted to'.Originally posted by: Goingin
Maybe Haku could have countered that Chidori from Kakashi, but i think he just didnt want to...
BTW, welcome to Gotwoot torrent, have a fun time. Don't mind the Mut@t@ guy. He's just like that.
MmmMmm. Ooiiishiii
Thnx [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]Originally posted by: Stoopider
Huh? Sacrificing himself for no reason? If he could counter it, he would have. I doubt 'he just didn't wanted to'.Originally posted by: Goingin
Maybe Haku could have countered that Chidori from Kakashi, but i think he just didnt want to...
BTW, welcome to Gotwoot torrent, have a fun time. Don't mind the Mut@t@ guy. He's just like that.
But i really think he just sacrificed himself, and i am suprised u dont see that...
He wanted to die, he wanted Naruto to kill him, but Naruto couldnt.. and when he could Haku knew Zabuza was in trouble, blocked Naruto's attack and jumped in between Kakashi and Zabuza taking the full Chidori hit...
Then he grabbed hold of Kakashi's wrists and died.. (giving an opportunity for Zabuza to kill Kakashi)
Before I even argue, I like how you went from genin to jounin. COmpletely skipping chuunins, thats like going for busboy to supervisor.
Yeah you might be right there goingin. *Watching back the old eps*
No idea why these Japanese people are so like that. Stupid. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
MmmMmm. Ooiiishiii
Kakashi probably could've beaten Haku, even though he said he couldn't, but it probably would've been a lot harder than killing Zabuza. Throughout the show there's a lot of underestimating of other nin's abilities... but there's also a lot of overestimating as well. Ex: Naruto is scared of Neji and Gaara, initially. During the battles of the prelims/1st round there are a lot of people who think others will win and just be wrong. It all comes down to strategy... think about the Temari and Shikamaru battle for example... she's way stronger, but he wins
Sorry if I'm reposting something that another person said, but I got bored, and skipped to the end of the thread [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Anyway, I think a lot of people are either overestimating Haku, or underestimating Kakashi. I haven't gone back to see the old episodes, but the way I remember it, Kakashi didn't say that Haku could beat him. Just that he couldn't defeat the demonic ice mirrors. And of course, Kakashi would see that move coming and kill Haku before he could whip it out.
As some of the other posters said, there is a tremendous difference between raw talent and experience. This difference is epitomized in the rivalry between Gai and Kakashi.
It is not impossible for a normal genin to defeat a jounin, it's just really unlikely. Most jounins should have the talent that got them where they are, and the experience to use that talent to the best effect.
Another way of phrasing the contrast between genins and jounins would be the rock-paper-scissors analogy. A genin might have the most badass jutsu (a really big rock, strong paper, or really sharp scissors), but the jounin would have tons of each kind to fall back on, and would have a good idea which item would counter which.
Naruto and Sasuke arent Jounins imo, their insight, tactics and leadership skills are not Jounin worthy... cause becoming a jounin isnt just knowing strong jutsu and have alot of chakra.
Its a all around thing IMO, you must have power, brains, strategy, and leadership ability, with out all of these the other abilities wont help you at all
R.I.P Captain America.
Sorry this is late. I've had a terrible work schedule and it isn't over yet. Here's the responses to page 1's top points.
I don't think you know what heresay means.
no way theres FAR too much heresay in your post for it to be anywhere near factual, although i can see where your coming from i have to say your wrong.
First off, since when is "I think differently than you" a refutation of anything? Good job for thinking differently, but unlike me you didn't actually provide evidence. Second off, nowhere in the OP did I pose the idea that Sasuke could whoop a Sannin. The Sannin are very, very rare exceptions in power compared to Konoha's typical Jounin.ok point one, sasuke hit oro and surprised him. gai hit kisame but i dont really think gai could beat him.
Yes, kids. The same is true for the Genin. These BOTH prove my point: power is not tied to rank. There can be INSANELY strong Genin who are still better fit for the Genin position than for promotion: like Naruto and Sasuke. There can be INSANELY strong Jounin who could kill hundreds of other Jounin at once, and yet they are not a separate class because Jounin is not a designation based on power.
Here is the essential argument, again: I am not saying that the elite rookie Genins are "as strong as Jounin". I am saying that the phrase "as strong as a Jounin" means nothing: Jounin is not a class of power.
This works rather well when you invent a DBZ "power level" for Kakashi-sensei. Good thing there isn't one in the series.econd, half or even 75% of 1 million billion zillion is a lot less.
Uh, sure, buddy. What series did you watch?third point haku is NOT a jounin. i cant stress this enough. he was beaten by sasuke, a gennin.
I consider the Chidori a high-level Jutsu (referring to it as Jounin level was erroneous). I support this by saying that an elite ninja like Kakashi, who has tons of experience and techniques, can only use that technique four times in 24 hours before becoming exhausted. Similarly, Naruto's Gamabunta summon is something that only the Fourth Hokage has done previously.For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin.
Thing is, the Jounins already observed that typical Genins shouldn't be able to perform even basic jutsus like Sasuke's fireball. This, again, serves to illustrate that there isn't really a set power that each rank has.I agree with Shadow-Wolf, I think you are just saying that some techniques are Jounin level are only for Jounins but Genins can perform it as well. Didn't you ever think that some of the Jounin teachers would teach their Genins their techniques?
No, I don't.And you also say that Naruto IS a Jounin just because he has the Kyubi inside him.
No. I would discuss the reason why this isn't so, but, again... spoiler territory. Remember that the promotion isn't based on fighting ability, and I'll leave it at that.Jounnins have lots more experience and can be more trusted to handle more difficult missions. Thus, they should be theoretically better at fighting and so what not.
No kidding, buddy, that's kinda my point. The top Genins we see aren't that far from the Jounins in combat ability. However, unlike what you and others have said/implied, that does not mean they should be promoted.Stuff that Stoopider says about the Genin being elite
There are zero examples in my post that are dependant on surprise attacks to argue that a top Genin could defeat a Jounin. There is ONE example of Sasuke surprising Orochimaru, and it was done to again say that the power gaps here can be bridged. Friggin' OROCHIMARU is a pretty special case to survive Sasuke's surprise attack. Without the copout of Kawarimi I feel that pretty much anyone besides a Sannin who had explosives detonate on their body would be dead. Orochimaru had that outer flesh shell, and it got melted and warped: you can imagine what would happen to an actual person's flesh.That's a pretty illogical argument. It's full of guesses on your part that aren't justified, examples where a
gennin did little more than catch a jounin off guard for an instant
Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half. Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?Sasuke may be able to do the Chidori almost as many times as Kakashi, but what makes you think that his
is anywhere near as strong as Kakashi's?
Oh, wait. We can just use the automatic assumption that a Jounin's techniques are a zillion times better than Sasuke's, just because it's a Jounin. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]
Not really. Naruto has an ENORMOUS damage soak and also, thanks to the training with Jiraiya, can call upon the Kyuubi pretty much whenever he wants to kick someone's ass.garra and naruto both have demons that empower them, but for naruto to get that power he needs to be in a dire situation.
Too bad the creator thinks its funny that until now we only seen Naruto use it when he's all out of options and cannot do anything else than call it up (fight against Neji) or when he's in distress (summoning Gamabunta when he's falling down that ..."thing" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img], or in the fight against gaara when he's in a _tight situation_ like desert coffin [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img])Originally posted by: Y The Alien
Not really. Naruto has an ENORMOUS damage soak and also, thanks to the training with Jiraiya, can call upon the Kyuubi pretty much whenever he wants to kick someone's ass.
About the "i say he's too strong for me so i can't beat him" thing in naruto, why do most people go comparing ninja's on that?
There's a difference between saying u can do something and actually doing it with success.
The whole ninja comparison based on the things characters say in Naruto is just rubbish, u cannot do such a thing.
Naruto can say (out loud [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]) that he can beat Kakashi (by instance) but he can't.
U need actual fighting scenes to compare the strenghts of the characters, and even then u can be off, cause they all specialized in different jutsu's and moves, so an overall weakers ninja could defeat a stronger one if he does moves the stronger one cannot counter or if he's smarter
The whole Naruto series is just too much full of suprises, and with some characters getting more and more stronger, or some revealing more special moves its almost impossible to compare em
You guys keep comparing naruto and gaara and sasuke to people like Itachi and Kakashi and Jiraiya etcetera, those people are just the exceptional jounins, the ones who were like as strong as naruto and sasuke etcetera when they were kids, the Majority of jounins are just slightly above average ninjas
For instance, in jump festa 2004, the villains were a bunch of rogue jounins, and naruto and sasuke kicked their asses... not all jounins are so great
that villages jounin standards were obviously below average seeing how they had like 30 people living in that whole village.Originally posted by: gokudagreat
You guys keep comparing naruto and gaara and sasuke to people like Itachi and Kakashi and Jiraiya etcetera, those people are just the exceptional jounins, the ones who were like as strong as naruto and sasuke etcetera when they were kids, the Majority of jounins are just slightly above average ninjas
For instance, in jump festa 2004, the villains were a bunch of rogue jounins, and naruto and sasuke kicked their asses... not all jounins are so great
Using the Jump Special is a copout. A terrible copout. First, it's an INCREDIBLY off base power for Naruto and Sasuke, who have been shown close to Jounins but never able to easily whoop the ass of a Jounin hopped up on a 10x chakra increasing powerup. I mean, I think Sasuke at his best showings in the manga can barely take 5/10 or 6/10 against Kakashi-sensei. Yet in the special he and Naruto whip Suien's ass like it's a joke. That is stupendously off-kilter.
Second, the special has several tiny continuity errors that place it outside of the main Naruto timeline.
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