The Gap Between Genin And Jounin

[Y]

There isn't one.

Well, sort of.

Here we go. The reasons why there is not a significant gap between the elite rookie Genin main characters and the Jounins we've seen.

Sasuke:

There are several power showing for Sasuke that put him at a very high chakra level. First off, he freakin' tooled on six Mizubunshin clones of Zabuza (1/10th Jounin power each) effortlessly. This is the beginning of the series and already after the brief tree-training (a FAR smaller training period than the later one he undergoes in the Chuunin Arc) he is able to effortlessly smoke six clones. Eariler, ONE had been stomping him. In a week's worth of training Sasuke's chakra level got multiple times higher, putting him at a solid 1/5th Zabuza powerlevel, IMO.

Then, of course, we have the Haku fight. Haku is Jounin level - this is inarguable. Sasuke was defeating his Bloodline Limit with the Sharingan - slowly, of course, and not in a way that would be useful in a fight. But, again, this is Sasuke in the second-weakest portrayal he'll have in the series, and he's learning to defeat Jounin level techniques. In a few minutes' time, Sasuke went from being totally owned by Haku's Bloodline Limit to the point where his insight was catching up to Haku, a kid who's got skills and power that surpass Jounin level.

Sasuke tricked Orochimaru in battle. Sure, his techniques were pitifully ineffective, but Oro wasn't faking the look of surprise when his ass exploded. So we have cleverness that at least made an EFFORT against a Sannin. Yes, Oro wasn't trying. Point is, he WAS going to kill Sasuke if he found him to be unsuitable, and Sasuke proved himself worthy. This is a decent showing.

Sasuke smokes Yoroi in one combo after being chakra drained for several minutes. Above average Genin level? You bet.

Sasuke is shown to have half the Chakra of Kakashi when he isn't using the Seal (during the flashbacks to the training where he learned Chidori). With the Seal, he was able to muster 75% of Kakashi's level (3 Chidoris in one day). That he mastered a Jounin level technique is also a nice feat.

Sasuke smoked a non-transformed Gaara. Badly. He also harmed the partially transformed Gaara. This, IMO, puts him at Jounin level, easily. I'll do Gaara in a bit.

Naruto:

I think it's pretty obvious why Naruto's Jounin level: he has the fucking Kyuubi stuck in him. Whenever he uses it he trashes Jounin level beings. He tosses Haku, BADLY. Haku is Jounin level. He uses a freakin' Hokage level Kuchiyose (or however you spell it). He broke through SHUKAKU's defenses to attack the sleeping Gaara. There's another piece of evidence I'd add here, but that's a spoiler. Anyway, yeah. Naruto has waaay above Jounin level chakra.

Sakura:

Just kidding. She's weak as hell.

Rock Lee:

Tossed the non-transformed Gaara around like a ragdoll. Yes, he lost. Losses do not mean that the opponent 100% outclasses you. In fact, Gaara barely outclasses Lee at all.

He can open the Celestial Gates. Again, don't feel the need to explain why an ability that moves you to Hokage level once you master it is a Jounin level technique when partially accessed.

Gaara:

Obvious, again. He has a fuckin' demon in his body that he draws power from and he's the child of a Kage.

I think, though I am not sure, that Yashamaru was a Hidden Sand Jounin. Gaara murdered her/him effortlessly - as a child.

Baki fears Gaara. Indirectly, we can assume that Kazekage feared Gaara as well.

Jounins:

The position of Jounin has never been linked to having a huge amount of Chakra or a huge amount of ninja fighting skill. In fact, the OPPOSITE associations have been made: I'd elaborate but I don't believe the results of the Chuunin Exam have been released in the anime, have they?

I'll say this: high rank ninjas are not elected for their fighting prowess. So why is there this huge assumption that random Jounin #47 would whoop a bunch of Genin's asses? I feel that pretty much any Jounin who isn't an elite level like Kakashi would get defeated in a fight by heavy hitters like Sasuke, Gaara, Neji, Lee, or Naruto. Again, I'd add more examples but they're spoilers. Hell, I'd give some of them even odds or better against Kakashi-sensei.

So, yeah. I spent a bit too much time on this.

What do you think? Coherent? Logical? Factually based?

[Krbadass]

Ok man fact is genin is no where near jounin. Sasuke is no where near jounin, neither is naruto. It's not all power and jutsu. While you made a solid arguement about it the fact is that the show wouldn't work if you were right.

[Jessper]

So really powerful/talented gennin beating one Jounin.

I like this comment "Haku is Jounin level - this is inarguable." How is that inarguable? so you can make your point? Sure his bloodlimit owns and could probably own Jounins but that doesn't make him one.

So Gaara's demon can kill Jounins, I still don't see your point.

All I get from your post is that in this series the main focus includes Genins that are extraordinary and powerful and should go to at least the next level of ninja at this point in time.

[Y]

Ok man fact is genin is no where near jounin.

What a solid rebuttal.

[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

It's not all power and jutsu.

Whoa, welcome to my point! While the abovementioned are Jounin level in Chakra and fightning skill, they are not Jounin level in other areas, for instance leadership skill and teaching ability. However, the people of this forum apparently have it in their minds that a Jounin could stomp the Genins of the series effortlessly. Which is, as I showed, false.

I'm talking about fighting power and skill here, not who's better at teaching upcoming ninja classes. Namely, I was trying to make the point that the gaps between Genin and the higher Ninja ranks are not based on power or fighting skill. I could easily demonstrate this but it would again be a spoiler.

The point of this is, really, to show that it ISN'T about power. I did so by demonstrating that there is not a significant power gap between the ninja ranks. Simple.

While you made a solid arguement about it the fact is that the show wouldn't work if you were right.

Riiiiiiiight.

[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[Y]

I like this comment "Haku is Jounin level - this is inarguable." How is that inarguable? so you can make your point? Sure his bloodlimit owns and could probably own Jounins but that doesn't make him one.

Well, when Kakashi-sensei says "Haku is stronger than me", and Zabuza says "Haku is stronger than me" I consider it a pretty much open and shut case. You are free to debate the issue, however.

[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

So Gaara's demon can kill Jounins, I still don't see your point.

Oh, please. Gaara is powered by a superpowerful demonic force capable of matching and defeating Hokage level summons. This demonic being's chakra powers Gaara. Yet you don't see my point?

Whose fault is that?

All I get from your post is that in this series the main focus includes Genins that are extraordinary and powerful and should go to at least the next level of ninja at this point in time.

Hm.

The rank you have is not tied to your power or chakra, and thus the skill and power of the rookie Genin doesn't factor into promotion decisions. However, in a straightup fight a notable Genin can pull even with exceptional Jounins.

EDIT: Edited for spelling and to remove an insult that I felt was gratutious on second reading.

[Pyron]

umm..what i see here is a thread made not to get other peoples' opinion, but a thread to show everyone that Y the Alien is "right". sure with your arguements you maybe or may not be right with a lot of these things but why make this thread if your not open to what others have to say?

anyways, against elite Jounins i'd say Haku would have no chance. if they actually wanted to finish off Haku it would probably be done quickly. however if Haku manages to pull off that bloodline technique against an elite Jounin, i have no idea how they would deal with that..

and remember, it wasn't actually Naruto that broke though Shukaku's D...it was the frog boss(i forgot his name) who cut his arm. and yes..with the help of Naruto they were able to transform into a form of Kyuubi to grab Shukaku so that Naruto could punch Gaara..

[Y]

umm..what i see here is a thread made not to get other peoples' opinion, but a thread to show everyone that Y the Alien is "right". sure with your arguements you maybe or may not be right with a lot of these things but why make this thread if your not open to what others have to say?

Open as in accepting their opinions without question? No, doubtful. Open as in considering them? Of course. Feel free to raise objections, including the hole in this theory that is brought up later in the manga (through PM).

I supppose this was done to prove a point. But I hardly think this is infalliable.

anyways, against elite Jounins i'd say Haku would have no chance. if they actually wanted to finish off Haku it would probably be done quickly.

Now see, I know we could go through all that crap about everyone having the right to their opinion, blahblahwhatever etc...

But if you are just going to post assertions, don't bother.

Anyway, why do you think this? Haku displayed extraordinary ability and skill, the onehanded seals in particular. The only other character who I can think of who was implied to be using one handed seals was Itachi (his right hand was full while he was doing the seals off screen to attack Kakashi). Haku took a seriously powerful attack from Kyuubi Naruto and survived. I don't think he's a walk in the park for anyone.

however if Haku manages to pull off that bloodline technique against an elite Jounin, i have no idea how they would deal with that..

Probably by dying.

and remember, it wasn't actually Naruto that broke though Shukaku's D...it was the frog boss(i forgot his name) who cut his arm. and yes..with the help of Naruto they were able to transform into a form of Kyuubi to grab Shukaku so that Naruto could punch Gaara..

Maybe I'm misremembering. Didn't Shukaku's skin transform into sand that trapped Naruto in place, and he forced through to get the headbutt in?

[chambers]

no way theres FAR too much heresay in your post for it to be anywhere near factual, although i can see where your coming from i have to say your wrong.

ok point one, sasuke hit oro and surprised him. gai hit kisame but i dont really think gai could beat him. its a chance thats all it is. lucky could be another word. everyone can be surprised. your right oro WASNT trying at all.being able to hit a sannin doesnt mean your incredibley strong, it means you can surprise him.

second, half or even 75% of 1 million billion zillion is a lot less. lets take it for granted that the chidori uses a set amount of chakra (wich i dont believe is true anyway but...) then if kakshi can do it twice as much as sasuke he has double the chakra. we must assume chidori uses a hell of a lot of chakra so thats still a huge gap. also stregnth doesnt neccasarily mean lots of chakra, otherwise naruto would have been crowed hokage at birth.

third point haku is NOT a jounin. i cant stress this enough. he was beaten by sasuke, a gennin. we CLEARLY see in the training that kakashi is MILES stronger than sasuke. sasuke beats haku wich means that kakshi would have murdered him. i dont care if he says it he was clearly wrong.

fourth for both lee and sasuke, non-trasformed gaara is clearly a weakling if you have the speed to get past his defense. he cant do NOTHING after that. also i dont think there ARE jounin level techniques such as summon, chidori and the gates. thye are just moves that are more easily learnt by more accomplishied ninja's, just becasue they learn them doesnt mean they are jounin level.

[kage_bunshin]

haku is jounin level. Remember Zabuza once said haku was stronger than himself

[Kurapica]

I've got something to add about Haku. Haku strenght is severly being underestimated. Kakashi and Zabuza both say that he is above their level. When he fought Naruto and Sasuke with the ice mirrors, he wasn't even fighting them with the intent to kill. Finally, naruto needed to let the nine tails take over control in order to end Haku's jutsu.
Besides wouldn't Haku be extremely powerfull if he was using poisonous needles to attack his enemy. See how accuratly he was able to put Zabuza in a near-death state. With poisonous needles, an intent to kill, his ability to perform one hand seals and the ice mirrors justsu, Haku would be one of the strongest characters seen yet.

[Shadow-wolf]

For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin. Whereas more and more "Genin" are standing out because they can perform these same techniques. It may have something to do progression, evolution and just basic determination. But also remember that technique alone does not distingush the difference. I believe experience is far more important. Its not what you can do, but how you do it.

[GLS]

Originally posted by: Shadow-wolf
For some reason (IMO) it seems to me that you're calling certain techniques Jounin level simply because they're performed a Jounin. Whereas more and more "Genin" are standing out because they can perform these same techniques. It may have something to do progression, evolution and just basic determination. But also remember that technique alone does not distingush the difference. I believe experience is far more important. Its not what you can do, but how you do it.

Yeah thats true you could be the most powerful person in the world and go up agaisnt the weakest who has won alot(but is still weak) but has experience under his belt, while the strong one(fighting for the first time) fights the weak one and loses. Experience is more important than power b/c it lets you understand the battle and it lets you makes stategies off that experience

Note: This is KNIVES122 channeling this message through the account of GAARALOVESSAND.

[Pyron]

anyways, it doesn't matter...Haku is dead. He'd probably be prettty strong if he didn't die but what's done is done

[NM]

I agree with Shadow-Wolf, I think you are just saying that some techniques are Jounin level are only for Jounins but Genins can perform it as well. Didn't you ever think that some of the Jounin teachers would teach their Genins their techniques? Like the Chidori (Kakashi-Sasuke) or the Gate Openings (Gai-Lee).

And you also say that Naruto IS a Jounin just because he has the Kyubi inside him. Yes, its true that the Kyubi has so much chakra within it but you have to remember, Naruto can't control its complete power yet. And controlling the Kyubi's chakra still wouldn't make Naruto a Jounin just yet. Let me refresh your memory, the 4th Hokage went up against the Kyubi at its FULL POWER and he defeated it (at the cost of his own life but he still took down the most powerful demon ever). So you can't just go saying that oh look, Naruto has the Kyubi so he is the most powerful ninja ever. It is his dream to become one but with or without the Kyubi, he has to work hard to become a Jounin and then on, Hokage.

[SilentSnake]

Don't know, if someone noticed that before...

but didn't sasuke use chidori 4 times in one day ??

ep 83 - 2 holes in the rock, sasuke's doing chidori for the third time, end of scene...

sasuke hears about itachi and naruto, finding 'em and doing chidori for the 4th time on itachi in one day... (and has his hand "burned" by chidori, but after all he managed to do it normally...)

[Stoopider]

There is a gap between Gennin and Jounnins.

Jounnins have lots more experience and can be more trusted to handle more difficult missions. Thus, they should be theoretically better at fighting and so what not.

But to their fighting extent, and their chakra ammount, Jounnins are/should have more. One thing we kinda left out, the gennins we are talking about like Naruto, Gaara, Sasuke, and the rest are more Giftedthan the others.

The typical ninja's we'd find that fit into the gennin, Chunnin, Jounnin scheme would be like the rest that did badly at the chunnin exams. If you look back, most of the peeps there taking the chunnin exams are in their teens or twenties. I would think those are the typical ninja's.

And I would definitely think Jounnin's are meant more for the really talented one's. If you look at one of the older threads, some like Kakashi and Gai completed their chunnin exams when they were 6(?). Sorry. Couldn't find the link.

Chunnin's and gennins should be the norm.

[SofaKing]

(in reply to the first post)

That's a pretty illogical argument. It's full of guesses on your part that aren't justified, examples where a
gennin did little more than catch a jounin off guard for an instant (even high level ninjas aren't infalible), and
half-arguments.

For example:

"Sasuke is shown to have half the Chakra of Kakashi when he isn't using the Seal (during the flashbacks to the training where he learned Chidori). With the Seal, he was able to muster 75% of Kakashi's level (3 Chidoris in one day). That he mastered a Jounin level technique is also a nice feat."

Sasuke may be able to do the Chidori almost as many times as Kakashi, but what makes you think that his
is anywhere near as strong as Kakashi's?

[SK]

ok what you have to remember is Sasuke, Naruto, Rock Lee, Garra etc are all GENIUSES. compared to other genin theyre way above the rest, but theyre not jounin level at all. you also have to remember there are gifted jounin like Kakashi, who became a chunnin at what 6? garra and naruto both have demons that empower them, but for naruto to get that power he needs to be in a dire situation. a jounin would beat him before he has the time to call upon the demon's power. none of your examples are genin vs jounin except for naruto vs haku. but that was kyubi that beat haku not naruto. until we see a genin beat a jounin theres still a huge gap between them.

[njdevs95]

Originally posted by: SilentSnake
Don't know, if someone noticed that before...

but didn't sasuke use chidori 4 times in one day ??

ep 83 - 2 holes in the rock, sasuke's doing chidori for the third time, end of scene...

sasuke hears about itachi and naruto, finding 'em and doing chidori for the 4th time on itachi in one day... (and has his hand "burned" by chidori, but after all he managed to do it normally...)

No he tried to do it 3 times in a day but failed. The first 2 were a flashback of his training before that day. Then he did it once in the stadium against the gaara ball, he did it once in the forest and then he tried to do a third one in the forest but it fizzled out and he became as useless as sakura.

Also in response to the first post if catching a jounin off guard makes one almost as powerful or as powerful then the eraser is a jounin.....remember when naruto put the eraser in the door and it hit kakashi the first day they met.......yeah buddy that eraser is a bad ass mofo.

[Jessper]

All your examples are of the best genin, yes Naruto's Chakra can overwhelm a jounin obviously yes lee's speed may be faster than a chuunin(maybe a regular jounin but we havn't seen that yet IIRC) and Haku has a bloodlimit power that is extremly powerful.

Yes Genin(the exceptional ones we have seen) may equal a jounin in one point but not in all of them so they arn't really at jounin level but most of them should be chuunin I think.

If your agruement was that all Jounins don't surpass all Genins in every way shape and form then yes I agree with you but I don't think a normal genin would stand a second vs a normal jounin.