The Gap Between Genin And Jounin

[Jessper]

Thing is, the Jounins already observed that typical Genins shouldn't be able to perform even basic jutsus like Sasuke's fireball. This, again, serves to illustrate that there isn't really a set power that each rank has.

I think this only shows that Sasuke has an extraordinary amount of chakara(though I wouldn't call that fireball technique a basic one).

No kidding, buddy, that's kinda my point. The top Genins we see aren't that far from the Jounins in combat ability. However, unlike what you and others have said/implied, that does not mean they should be promoted.

However, if it were not for the Hokage's death some of these Genin's might be chuunin ATM so thats what they should be viewed as?

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I don't remember it however I remember Naruto finishing Gaara and usualy getting cut in half means death but again, I'll have to watch the episodes again.

Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

How does this in anyway compare Sasuke and Kakshi's chakara / strength of the technique? You can't use the automatic assumption that just because he killed Haku(which I got the feeling that he didn't want to and was trying to stop) and not some demon that his is a zillion times weaker than Sasuke's (that was a parody on your text if you didn't catch it...)

Similarly, Naruto's Gamabunta summon is something that only the Fourth Hokage has done previously.

Jiraiya talks about how he has a hard time controling Gamabunta when Naruto him summons the first time so I would only assume that he has done so before as well.

[Kurapica]

This thread blows, some people try to make assumptions of their own. I'd say let's have Kishimoto Masashi decide who is off what level and who can beat who, instead of just picturing stuff.

[Stoopider]

yes it does.

I doubt if Kishimoto even have thought through about the whole gennin Chunnin or Jounnin concept.

[Hinata-chan]

not gonna bother reading this so i'll add my bit


FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME FLAME YOU ARE WRONG I R RIGHT

[DaRk-SeRpEnT]

Haha this is funny but kakashi is more efficient then sasuke that makes him better and sasuke doesnt have as good teamwork and leadership skills as kakashi so there kakashi is better

[Knives122]

Bottom Line: Jounins are stronger more experienced and can work better in bad situations

WINNER: JOUNINS

[SofaKing]

There are zero examples in my post that are dependant on surprise attacks to argue that a top Genin could defeat a Jounin. There is ONE example of Sasuke surprising Orochimaru, and it was done to again say that the power gaps here can be bridged. Friggin' OROCHIMARU is a pretty special case to survive Sasuke's surprise attack. Without the copout of Kawarimi I feel that pretty much anyone besides a Sannin who had explosives detonate on their body would be dead. Orochimaru had that outer flesh shell, and it got melted and warped: you can imagine what would happen to an actual person's flesh.

Interesting that you pick a point to respond to, claim that there are zero examples of it, then go on to site
one. Also, Oro was completely unharmed by the explosion. All it did was make him stumble forward.

You need to argue with actual evidence, not "I feel"'s.

Let's see. Sasuke's cut a friggin' transforming Gaara in half. Kakashi killed an already beaten and weakened Haku. Which has the better showing?

Once again, you need to re-watch the series. Sasuke used the Chidori twice on Gaara. He survived both
times.

[Mut]

the thing about orochimaru vs sasuke. i hope all you guys know that orochimaru was just testing how talented sasuke was and was just messing around with him. in a real fight, sasuke would last maybe 4 seconds before orochimaru paralyzes his ass and rips his head off.

[Y]

I think this only shows that Sasuke has an extraordinary amount of chakara(though I wouldn't call that fireball technique a basic one).

Yes. It does show that Sasuke has more chakra than typical Genins, before he and the group even begin training.

Also, besides using ninjutsu to light candles or something, a fireball is pretty much the most basic fire attack possible, right? That's what I mean.

However, if it were not for the Hokage's death some of these Genin's might be chuunin ATM so thats what they should be viewed as?

I can't respond to this without spoling the results of the Chuunin Exam.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I don't remember it however I remember Naruto finishing Gaara and usualy getting cut in half means death but again, I'll have to watch the episodes again.

He cuts Gaara's giant Shukaku arm in half and it dissolves, after he activates the Heaven Seal. He didn't kill him. He just wounded a transforming Gaara by slicing his transforming arm in half and dissolving it.

How does this in anyway compare Sasuke and Kakshi's chakara / strength of the technique?

How else? How would you compare the effectiveness and power of the technique if you do not look at what effect it has on its targets? Sure, Sasuke had a way more powerful target. But Sasuke doing more damage with the technique than Kakashi makes it VERY unlikely that Kakashi's Chidori is "vastly superior". I personally believe that the technique is always the same power, but when the only example of its power leaves Sasuke looking superior, the logical assumption is not "Kakashi's is stronger".

his is a zillion times weaker than Sasuke's (that was a parody on your text if you didn't catch it...)

And my post was a parody of the one I was responding to.

Did you catch that? [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Jiraiya talks about how he has a hard time controling Gamabunta when Naruto him summons the first time so I would only assume that he has done so before as well.

You are right, I was totally wrong about the frog summons and misremembered both Gamabunta's line ("No one's ridden on my back since the Fourth") and a later manga arc.

This thread blows

And what a useful contribution your posts make to it, son. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Interesting that you pick a point to respond to, claim that there are zero examples of it, then go on to site
one.

To cite an example of Sasuke tricking a Sannin to show his ingenuity in battle - not that he'd whoop the guy's ass. Sasuke's power and ingenuity in battle surprised Oro and threw him off balance - and that is all. It isn't as if my argument hinges on Sasuke being able to whip the Sannin's asses blindfolded. That was just a high showing for him, not "omg rofls he pwnd oro".

Also, Oro was completely unharmed by the explosion. All it did was make him stumble forward.

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

Sasuke used the Chidori twice on Gaara. He survived both
times.

No shit. He cut the Shukaku arm (which is of course more durable than Gaara's normal body - unless you think Gaara can take thousands of Kage Bunshin'ed Kyuubi Naruto punches and survive) in half and it dissolved. This feat absolutely blows away Kakashi's killing of a beaten down Haku.

the thing about orochimaru vs sasuke. i hope all you guys know that orochimaru was just testing how talented sasuke was and was just messing around with him. in a real fight, sasuke would last maybe 4 seconds before orochimaru paralyzes his ass and rips his head off.

You got me, buddy. Sasuke in the early parts of the series cannot beat Orochimaru. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Congratulations, that proves nothing. It isn't as though any of the Leaf Jounin can replicate that feat.

[Uchiha Barles]

Although we haven't really seen any kind of proof of it yet, it is rumored that Kakashi cut through lightning (whatever that means) with his chidori. I think that, if it's true, that blows anything Sasuke has shown with the chidori to date.

[Mut]

what are you trying to say y the alien? are you trying to say that kakashi would lose to sasuke if they went head to head with their chidori?

[ShinobiNeko]

If Sasuke and Kakashi went head on with Chidori I"m sure Kakashi would come out the winner -.-

[SofaKing]

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

#1 That's a nice dodge there.
#2 It did not melt his flesh off, it melted someone else's flesh off. Oro was wearing someone else's face as a
mask at the time. Oro himself was unharmed.
#3 I see no reason why Kakashi would not survive such a blast. Funny thing about the jounin in Naruto- they
are stronger, faster, and tougher than any real human.

No shit. He cut the Shukaku arm (which is of course more durable than Gaara's normal body - unless you think Gaara can take thousands of Kage Bunshin'ed Kyuubi Naruto punches and survive) in half and it dissolved. This feat absolutely blows away Kakashi's killing of a beaten down Haku.

#1 Don't say 'No shit' now when you said that Gaara was cut in half before.

#2 No, it doesn't. You're STILL missing the fact that Sasuke's Chidori failed to defeat Gaara. The Chidori is a
finishing move, which judging from the Kakashi vs. Zabuza fight is supposed to be able to kill an opponent,
not just hurt him a little. Sasuke's Chidori didn't do too good a fucking job of that, now did it? And all you can
offer on Kakashi's Chidori is that it only killed the person that it struck.

Unless you can provide actual evidence to show that Sasuke's Chidori is as good as Kakashi's, then there
remains a gaping hole in your logic.

[miaka]

jeez guys... sasuke, naruto and etc are in chuunin level now... and jounins are stronger than them.. i mean there are ranks for a reason.. and kakashi knows 1000 jutsus.. of course sasuke can't beat kakashi.. kakashi wouldn't be his teacher if sasuke could

[Jessper]

Also, besides using ninjutsu to light candles or something, a fireball is pretty much the most basic fire attack possible, right? That's what I mean.

Well you said basic, not basic fire tech and replication is pretty basic imo where his fireball would be probably a level above that.

He cuts Gaara's giant Shukaku arm in half and it dissolves, after he activates the Heaven Seal. He didn't kill him. He just wounded a transforming Gaara by slicing his transforming arm in half and dissolving it.

cutting him in half is different from cutting his arm in half. also, Activates the Heaven Seal? You meanthe cursed seal? I'm lost here.

How else? How would you compare the effectiveness and power of the technique if you do not look at what effect it has on its targets? Sure, Sasuke had a way more powerful target. But Sasuke doing more damage with the technique than Kakashi makes it VERY unlikely that Kakashi's Chidori is "vastly superior". I personally believe that the technique is always the same power, but when the only example of its power leaves Sasuke looking superior, the logical assumption is not "Kakashi's is stronger".

The point of my question was it is like comparing the strength of two guns with one shooting a bird and the other shooting a bear and saying this proves that the one that killed the bird can't be vastly stronger than the other one, you don't know. Also like I said I think Kakshi was trying to stop (but we probably won't ever know) so if he was that might be why his Chidori did less damage.

I know that you can't reveal the results of the exam but as far as we know(the anime only watchers) they could be Chuunin so this isn't really the place to bring up this discussion as then half of your examples would be chuunin vs jounin not genin.

Which led into the fire dragon jutsu. Which melted his flesh off. And, really dude, do you think Kakashi or Kurenai or Asuma can have explosives bounce off his ass harmlessly? Really?

Ya his "flesh" was a fake face that burned off and he was unharmed. And Kakshi was fine when Sasuke used his fireball on him too.

[Goingin]

Sasuke could be stronger and would be having more chakra to use if he didn't have that Cursed seal, so it's kinda hard to tell how strong he really is..

Btw, its a pretty nice trick done by Oro, this way Sasuke has to come to him if he seeks more power than the seal permits

[complich8]

This argument is going around in circles, because there's too much focus on special cases. Let's talk about general cases first.

I like to think of genin, chuunin and jounin like belts in martial arts.

Genin is white belt. White belts can do two or three basic punches and kicks, or so. Maybe know a really simple basic form or stance or block. Genins can use replication, which is the first ninja technique they learn.

Chuunin is like red belt. You can do Palm Heel Strikes, Elbow Strikes, 6 types of kicks, break boards, you know the basic tenets of the philosophy pretty well. Chuunins can lead, have good versatile technique toolkits and have their priorities straight (for the most part).

Jounin is like a 2nd degree black belt. You're a master of the philosophy, you're versatile in the arts in general. Does that mean you'll win every fight? Certainly not. Does that mean you'll win every fight with a white belt who's got 18 inches of height and 12 inches of reach and 200 lbs and a background in some other martial art? Not at all. Does it mean you're versatile and good in a lot of situations, and know the ins and outs of your art better than a red belt? Very likely. Not every black belt is going to be stronger than every red belt, or even exceptional white belts. Just like when I was in taekwondo for a few months and the instructor (a 2dan black belt) couldn't get basic techniques to work on me because I am just overwhelmingly big.

Gaara is certainly a special case. Naruto is definitely. Sasuke? You bet. Even Sakura is a special case, despite people's naysaying. Neji and Hinata? Lee? You better believe they aren't normal. I'd say the only "normal" cases we've seen would be tenten, ino, and chouji. They have their techniques, their techniques have flaws, they're growing but they're not stronger in any field than your average next level up.

Now let's talk about more specifics. Why can Kakashi only do Chidori 1 time more per day than Sasuke can? An easy explanation is that Chidori requires the use of Sharingan. Since Kakashi isn't an uchiha (and thus not built for sharingan) it saps his strength a lot more than a born sharingan-user like sasuke (who is probably almost at the point of sharingan being second nature now). Add this built-in drain factor to a powerful chakra-heavy technique, and realize that on top of that it's not the only tool that kakashi has or would use, and you've still got room for him to have significantly more chakra than Sasuke, just that he uses more of it doing the same things when the same things involve the use of sharingan.

I think of the Sannin to be like 4th or 5th dan black belts. Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru. Orochimaru is tactically smarter than Jiraiya. Tsunade, we don't know about. I'd put the third at around the same. These are people that you almost never see fight, and especially never see fight each other, but when they're serious nobody below that level can really get anywhere close to them.

[ShinobiNeko]

Well even if there are special cases , that still dosent' mean they can beat a Jounin, and, I don't even know why you brought up Sakura..she is not a special case and she would get her butt kicked in probably a second if she tried going up against a Jounin

[miaka]

okay... Sakura is not a special case... and she never will be

[iLLugi]

Jounin is only a rank, it desides what types of missions the ninja can do.
Those missions isn't always "fight other bad ninjas" but instead spy-missions (where you have to be almost invisible) and assassination missions.
Perhaps Naruto and the other genins could take on a Jounin in strength, but could they spy on a (perhaps elite-jounin) without being noticed... I doubt it...