Episode 84 Raw

[Noonan]

I think people have extrapolated a bit too much from the manga

In the Manga Itachi chooses to break off combat with Gai & CO. He insinuates that its because he's not here to start a war, not because he doesn't believe he can defeat them.

In the Manga Itachi chooses to get Jiraya out of the way rather than confronting him, Jiraya at first seems to expect to be able to handle the 2 akatsuki easily but is rather bothered when they evade him without much apparent effort. Kisame makes an untranslateable/unintellible comment about it not being the right time becuase the 'moon' has not yet become the 'sun'

In the Anime Itachi expressly states that he doesn't want to take on Jiraya because he doesn't want to risk getting himself or Kisame hurt for no purpose.

The anime also clarifies that the 'Moon' Kisame/Itachi refer to is one of the Top tier Sharingan powers.

So - what can we derive from this?

#1 Itachi sees Jiraya as a dangerous opponent, and while not concerned about any of the Jounins he's faced individually, does not want to have to face many of them at once.

#2 None of the Konohana Jounins individually are a match for Itachi - and Jiraya while potentially able to defeat him, does not know his full abilities either, making a match between them unpredictable.

#3 If the moon/sun comment was about Itachi - then Itachi may not have been at his full power for some reason when he appears in this story arc.

can we all agree on this or is it time for more flamewar?

[gokudagreat]

That episode rocked.... Couple of questions though

If i was Sasuke and age 7 i would of started crying WAY before that, he only shed like a couple tears towards the end of the flashback

Also, is it just me or does it seem like "killing them to test himself" is the true reason behind killing the clan... especially when you consider he kept Sasuke alive probably for the reason of wanting someone to avenge him... almost as if he wants to be killed by the hands of his brother one day... like hes in some pain that he cant escape so he wants someone else to end it for him

If anyone out there has played FFX, remember how Sin i.e. Jecht wants Tidus to kill him because the only way to put him out of his own misery would be to be killed... its very similar to Itachi... maybe he is ailing to die but just needs someone else to do it for him whos powerful enough

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Hokage-IV

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: Hokage-IV

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
it might not be in this episode cuz i didn't see it yet, but kisame does ask itachi why HE [itachi] has to retreat from jiraiya... so... kisame is a contradicting retard.

Kisame is contradicting or not ,Fact is Fact, Itachi retreats(from what u stated)

if you mix onpinion into fact, and say things about his personality
then you have to consider oro's personality. (a guy who is obsessed with Jutsu)

what are you trying to prove.

Im trying to prove the samething as u, as to why you replied.



You replied cuz ur one of the ppl that thinks itachi is the strongest char introduce so far . (from unbias perspective)I just wanted to point out there is no conclusive evidence or u can say there is contradictory evidence.

i still don't get what you're trying to prove. this is probably my fault, but just explain more.

and you say that: if i (maybe you were using 'you' generally) mix opinions into fact, and say things about his personality then i'd (or you generally) have to consider oro's personality...

but i'm not saying anything about anyone's personality. i don't see the correlation between someone contradicting himself (given that you were talking about kisame) and a guy who is obsessed with jutsus and i don't know how you can relate it to what we're talking about. also, what does itachi retreating have anything to do with this? it was clearly explained why he retreated and it shouldn't be significant.

man, it's hard to explain the thoughts in my head.

[originalkrn]

about the is jiraiya stronger or itachi stronger thing.. if itachi were truly stronger than jiraiya (which he even speaks as if he isnt), then he wouldnt have needed to say "even the most powerful have a weakness" and have gotten jiraiya distracted. And when Oro said "cuz itachi is stronger than me" he migth have meant that itachi was stronger than the state oro was in at the time , with his arms sealed and all.

[MemnochTheCaT]

That thought crossed my mind, OriginalKrn, except for one thing : he said that was the reason he left 'that' organization..

WHEN did Oro leave Akatsuki? I'm thinking it was a while back, which means when he still had the use of his arms. I sorta have a hard time picturing Oro stopping by the Akatsuki HQ on the way home from being gimped by the 3rd. Which means, Oro feared Itachi (again, questionable sanity is also possible with Oro, he has always been a bit 'off') even when he still had use of his arms, in all likelyhood.

Then again, could be a translation difficulty, with the actual meaning changing/being lost along the way. With Japanese, it happens frequently that there are statements which are EXTREMELY difficult to get the complete meaning changed to English.

All so ambiguous [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

[Mut]

so, ok.

at 12 years old, itachi massacres his whole clan, which is about 5 years ago (i believe itachi is 17). then we can assume that he peaced out on konoha and then became an s-rank criminal. so... anytime from now and 5 years ago, itachi joined akatsuki. anyway, i am almost positive and sure that orochimaru left akatsuki before he got his arms killed.

and let me repeat this for the 500th time... itachi distracted jiraiya, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID, BUT TO AVOID CONFRONTATION AS HE WAS PLAYING IT SAFE AND SMART SINCE THEY WERE IN NO RUSH. the mission could've been a failure and nothing bad would've come out of it. we know this cuz if they had to capture naruto then and there, they would've stayed and fought.

god damnit, i had a real good 'when who left when and joined akatsuki when' theory last night right before i went to sleep... i forgot it now! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

[originalkrn]

well yeah i know itachi is extremely powerful. but he isnt unstoppable. Kishimoto isnt gonna have legendary nins only to have this guy on such a higher level. And even if Oro says Itachi is stronger... Oro's meaning of stronger = knowing all jutsus, which teh sharingan is capable of doing so. And lastly, even though Jiraiya may be stronger , he will not be the one to kill itachi no matter what. Sasuke has to. Its just impossible to believe otherwise since that is Sasuke's goal since the begining.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Yeap [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Although I DO think that Itachi totally botched this situation totally .. I mean Ninja are supposed to get in without being noticed, accomplish their mission, and get out. So far, pretty bad ..

[Hotsuma]

Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. No buts and ifs about it. People just look at Itachi, and since he's related to Sasuke, somebody who makes Naruto (their favorite character) look bad, they try as hard as they can, to TWIST the words said in the manga. This is what Gotwoot should be renowned for. The Anti-Itachi sentiment.

Btw, I like Jiraiya more than Itachi, but I seriously don't think Jiraiya can really be able to fight off Itachi. And win.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: originalkrn
well yeah i know itachi is extremely powerful. but he isnt unstoppable. Kishimoto isnt gonna have legendary nins only to have this guy on such a higher level. And even if Oro says Itachi is stronger... Oro's meaning of stronger = knowing all jutsus, which teh sharingan is capable of doing so. And lastly, even though Jiraiya may be stronger , he will not be the one to kill itachi no matter what. Sasuke has to. Its just impossible to believe otherwise since that is Sasuke's goal since the begining.

no one said itachi is unstoppable... and you don't know if orochimaru meant that itachi is stronger cuz he has sharingan. it's a possibility, but not completely true. if orochimaru did mean that itachi was stronger cuz of the sharingan... why doesn't he say something about itachi's sharingan? orochimaru makes it completely clear that he doesn't want sasuke, but just his body (more specifically his sharingan). lately, the reason why i think jiraiya isn't stronger is because he is a good guy. it makes it way too easy for the good to win. the bad guys are always suppose to be stronger so that the good guys can become stronger and win in the end. i'm brilliant!

Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. No buts and ifs about it. People just look at Itachi, and since he's related to Sasuke, somebody who makes Naruto (their favorite character) look bad, they try as hard as they can, to TWIST the words said in the manga. This is what Gotwoot should be renowned for. The Anti-Itachi sentiment.

Btw, I like Jiraiya more than Itachi, but I seriously don't think Jiraiya can really be able to fight off Itachi. And win.

lol... anti-itachi sentiment. hahaha that made me laugh.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Originally posted by: Hotsuma
Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya. No buts and ifs about it. People just look at Itachi, and since he's related to Sasuke, somebody who makes Naruto (their favorite character) look bad, they try as hard as they can, to TWIST the words said in the manga. This is what Gotwoot should be renowned for. The Anti-Itachi sentiment.

Btw, I like Jiraiya more than Itachi, but I seriously don't think Jiraiya can really be able to fight off Itachi. And win.

You must have missed the part where Itachi talks about the best possible outcome of fighting Jiraiya ending in both of their deaths [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT : Found this, thanks Darthender :

Kisame : "Perhaps you can fight him evenly...but I cannot. He is too strong."

Itachi : "Yes. If we both fought him, we would both be killed...or in a good case, we might kill him, but we'd die along with him. Even if we had more men, that result would not change."

With further investigation, it is found that the most credible MANGA translation ALSO mirrors this, as follows, credits to Raijin's post [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

"Although I could do a translation myself from the raw manga, here is the conversation (from the manga) between Itachi and Kisame after their confrontation with the Konoha Jounins translated by AK of Troy (the individual who translated Naruto Volumes 1-12 and is the translator at Toriyama's World):

Kisame - You may be able to keep up with him but I don't know about me...
Kisame - He's on a different level
Itachi - Yeah... Fight him and we either both end up dead or get lucky and get a draw
Itachi - Increasing our numbers likely won't make a difference
Kisame - We finally find him at the ramen place and his bodyguard is one of those "legendary three nins"...
Kisame - Against him, the name of the "Leaf's Uchiha Clan" and the "Mist Seven Shinobi Swordsman" will just be tarnished...
Itachi - Yeah... But...
Itachi - Even the most powerful have a weakness... "

[Hokage-IV]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
so, ok.

at 12 years old, itachi massacres his whole clan, which is about 5 years ago (i believe itachi is 17). then we can assume that he peaced out on konoha and then became an s-rank criminal. so... anytime from now and 5 years ago, itachi joined akatsuki. anyway, i am almost positive and sure that orochimaru left akatsuki before he got his arms killed.

and let me repeat this for the 500th time... itachi distracted jiraiya, NOT BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID, BUT TO AVOID CONFRONTATION AS HE WAS PLAYING IT SAFE AND SMART SINCE THEY WERE IN NO RUSH. the mission could've been a failure and nothing bad would've come out of it. we know this cuz if they had to capture naruto then and there, they would've stayed and fought.

god damnit, i had a real good 'when who left when and joined akatsuki when' theory last night right before i went to sleep... i forgot it now! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

what are you trying to prove? i thought this discussion was over......

" NOT BECAUSE HE WAS AFRAID, BUT TO AVOID CONFRONTATION AS HE WAS PLAYING IT SAFE AND SMART SINCE THEY WERE IN NO RUSH"

again ur mixing onpinion into fact., this is what i ment about trying to analyze itachi's personality and use it as a fact. From a naked eye (prior to the confrontation) itachi admits facing jiriaya would risk his and kisame's lives. Then during battle , itachi retreats. But ur onpinion is, he wasnt afraid but he just wanted to avoid confrontation? im not saying thats right or wrong but thats just ur onpinion. Like i said b4, unless you are bias and look at evidence that favors itachi and neglect other facts that contradicts it, you should see there is no conclusive evidence that itachi is the strongest... not yet...

1) Itachi admits facing Jiriaya would risk his life
2) Itachi distracts Jiriaya away from Naruto
3) when confronted and Jiriaya started to show aggresiveness, Itachi retreats

what am i trying to prove? difference between fact and onpinon. Similiar to the topic that was going around , strongest and potential to be the strongest is 2 different things. *cough*

[Mut]

Originally posted by: Hokage-IV
Then during battle , itachi retreats. But ur onpinion is, he wasnt afraid but he just wanted to avoid confrontation?

IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT THEY WERE IN NO RUSH TO CAPTURE NARUTO, THAT'S WHY THEY LEFT. dude, i'm just going by what it says, i'm not making random stuff up.

[DeluxSkillz]

so people the bottom line is, jiraiya is probably capable of fighting itachi that's all, kisame is not strong enough and when they escape from the frog's mouth they do this just to avoid any meaningless harm to themselves, this has been discussed so many times and the anime just brought up what we already knew a long time ago, jiraiya is capable of beating them but if they take advantage of jiraiya's weakeness they can beat him while suffering severe wounds

[syllaw]

but if they knew his weakness... wouldnt they just use it to beat him... their lives must be more precious than risking any harm to get naruto back...

now i assume that when they get naruto they are going to need in top shape... perhaps they are going to release the nine tails... even if i was strong i wouldnt want to be the least bit short of tip top condition when messing with that thing...

~GS