i was just skimming over the chapters where naruto trains for the rasengan....and jiraiya says something about rasengan being one of the 6th level jutsus? like, the second strongest i think.....
anyone else hear anything about these jutsu levels? i remember haku saying stuff like "a fire jutsu of THAT LEVEL wont be enough" or itachi saying "genjustu of THAT LEVEL cant beat me"
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
i think those are the only times levels of jutsu were said. i figure like the fire jutsu the 3rd did (that super one where it looked like just got hotter and hotter) is probably one of the highest levels of fire jutsus. also, the 2nd blocked that fire jutsu with a high level of water jutsu (anbu members were impressed on the fact that such a high level water jutsu was performed at a place of no water). and for the genjutsu, i think sharingan can probably perform the highest levels of genjutsus. i think tayuya also had a pretty high level genjutsu.
for rasengan, the version i have says this:
"to appreciate the degree of difficulty of this jutsu, he (4th) was six grades above the second... 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level"
"in order to comprehend the jutsu, you need to be at 3rd grade level jutsu"
i don't know what version i have but those two sentences make zero sense to me...
I've also heard the theory that the rasengan has diffeent levels of power. meaning it's much more complicated and powerful than the level that naruto has mastered. so basically, it has a lot more potential than what naruto knows so far.
Also about jutsus in general. i figure jutsu levels have to do with the more powerful techniques because they are harder and require much more chakra and control. but hey, all in all, i'm really not sure
haha yeah, i had to stop to read that line over a few times......hopefully the anime will clear that up more
i wouldnt think there's multiple levels of rasengan though, if you can make a spinning ball of chakra, then you can make a spinning ball of chakra. There's not much else you can do to it than that.....but the reason naruto isnt actually a master of it like jiraiya and the 4th is because he actually needs 3 hands to mold it
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
there are 6 diffrent stages or levels if you wish that you have to master to fully master the rasengan. and the other times they have talked about level they probably only mean "that jutsu is to weak to defeat me" in many animes they use the term level on things like strength, speed, power.
I've been doing some thinking about this, and I've come up with some conclusions.
I would assume that, with time and training, a ninja learns and understands more about the theory of ninja techniques. So far we don't really know these theoretics. So after a ninja understand how a fire technique works he can practice on it to shorten the time he needs to prepare it, the amount of chakara he needs to use, and so forth. I would also believe that the more one understands jutsu and how it all works the more resistant one becomes. Take muscles for example. While working out one tears the muscle fibers in your muscles, and when they heal that is when they become stronger. It will take more effort to tear them again. The same could be applied to ninja techniques. After a certain time of using them basic techniques can be performed without though, while techniques that are more difficult require more effort and concentration.
But what makes a jutsu more difficult or hard to performe. Again this would fall into theory. So far we don't know WHY certain jutsu's are harder to perform than others. I belive that it has to do with the amount of chakara used, and what you are trying to do with it. A small amount of chakra sent out as a burst of flame would be relatively easy. A large amount of chakra sent out in the form of a water dragon, for example, would be harder because you are not only depending on other elements outside your control (water), but also the chakra has to be distributed far away from you and be given a distinct shape.
When people, such as Oro, says that "such a low level jutsu could never beat me", it is because they most likely know how that jutsu work, and are able to counter it's effects. If you know how to solve a math problem then it is no longer a problem, because you know how to solve it. See my point? Of course, this is all based on the assumption that there is a universal theory and law that applies for perfoming jutsu. Like the laws of physics, but only for ninja techniques.
Jutsu level based on type or if it's ninjutsu or genjutsu makes sense, but I don't know what the number system is about.
well apparently its more than hand seals and chakra stamina....because it took naruto a lot of trouble to concentrate and form the sphere with the chakra.....i think control also has a big part to play
Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya, im pretty sure jiraiya was talking about the "level" of the jutsu....especially since i think he only explained 3 steps to learning rasengan
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
If Naruto rasengan isnt a high level like Jirayas or the 4th Rasengan then i wonder how powerful the rasengan really is cause Narutos weak rasengan almost killed a medical specielist like Kabuto who protected himeself.
i am under the impression that a jutsu lvl has to do with chakra control and execution. wich is why super high lvl jutsu's are hard for sharingan to copy. unless the sharingan user has the required genius to comprehend what is his/her eyes are seeing. not only comprehend but have the ctrol of their body and chakra to perform it at the precision needed. I believe that the rasegan could easily be copy by the hyuga clan. not so much by other who have not strained their bodies to manipulate chakra from chakra holes. i tihnk the the speed and power requiments of the rasegan are what make it such a high lvl jutsu because of the chakra control required to pull it off. the exact reason why Naruto has to use two hands to do at his current lvl.
you mean 3 hands [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Originally posted by: SideLabel
I've been doing some thinking about this, and I've come up with some conclusions.
I would assume that, with time and training, a ninja learns and understands more about the theory of ninja techniques. So far we don't really know these theoretics. So after a ninja understand how a fire technique works he can practice on it to shorten the time he needs to prepare it, the amount of chakara he needs to use, and so forth. I would also believe that the more one understands jutsu and how it all works the more resistant one becomes. Take muscles for example. While working out one tears the muscle fibers in your muscles, and when they heal that is when they become stronger. It will take more effort to tear them again. The same could be applied to ninja techniques. After a certain time of using them basic techniques can be performed without though, while techniques that are more difficult require more effort and concentration.
But what makes a jutsu more difficult or hard to performe. Again this would fall into theory. So far we don't know WHY certain jutsu's are harder to perform than others. I belive that it has to do with the amount of chakara used, and what you are trying to do with it. A small amount of chakra sent out as a burst of flame would be relatively easy. A large amount of chakra sent out in the form of a water dragon, for example, would be harder because you are not only depending on other elements outside your control (water), but also the chakra has to be distributed far away from you and be given a distinct shape.
When people, such as Oro, says that "such a low level jutsu could never beat me", it is because they most likely know how that jutsu work, and are able to counter it's effects. If you know how to solve a math problem then it is no longer a problem, because you know how to solve it. See my point? Of course, this is all based on the assumption that there is a universal theory and law that applies for perfoming jutsu. Like the laws of physics, but only for ninja techniques.
good read, good theory ..
so ur saying....
and the basic question is
can some one like Oro be killed by basic fire techniqe?
One ,he is just immune to fire. by amount of chakra is being used or can be used? or
Two, katon is ninjutsu and he knows the techniqe and knows how to counter it, even though it seems hes just standing there getting burned.
In reality , fire is just as dangerous as a sword. In Naruto world it seems very distinct. They avoid getting stab by an object but they are carefree against fire.(so by this it should favor TWO,cuz fire is ninjutsu and its a technique ( but note* its also very distinct between fire and water, how they react to the technique, so by this it favors ONE)
but weapons and fire are consider basic lvl of ninja battle.(not referring to lvl of fire technique and weapons that can be used.)
so the question is
Can oro be killed by a regular weapon that can pierc through skin?(assuming he has no healing abilities)
or lvl of the weapon is being used determines it? (Enma's henge? Diamond Pole)
of course we will never know the answers to these questions cuz there is no law they follow but law of their creativity to innovate and logic will be whatever they desire to be for its viewers
narutos rasengan isnt weak he just forms it slower and in a diffrent way than jiraiya does.Originally posted by: Hakeem_21
If Naruto rasengan isnt a high level like Jirayas or the 4th Rasengan then i wonder how powerful the rasengan really is cause Narutos weak rasengan almost killed a medical specielist like Kabuto who protected himeself.
Welll Hokage-IV, that's a good question.
The way I see it, there is a difference between a knife, and fire. One is physical, being the knife, and fire is not. Now before anyone starts going all science on my ass (yes I know fire is also physical), let me exlain. A knife will always have the same mass, while a fire will roar up, sink, be blown in all directions, etc. It can also die out in a moment. The knife will always go in the direction you throw it and affected very little by wind. When there is wind combined with fire, you have a big-ass problem on your hands.
To answer your question, yes, Orochimaru could certinally be killed by a standard weapon. He may be one of the strongest ninjas alive, but he is still only human. I base this simply on the "physical" theory in the above paragraph. For one, if Orochimaru didn't bring up his defenses against a fire jutsu, he would most likely be burned alive. If he got a knife stab in the heart, he'd still die. The reason? Using a weapon is not a ninja technique, so to speak. There is no way to build up resistance to a weapon. Sure, you can deflect weapons with other techniques, but there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu.
That is also the reason I think ninjas use weapon. The options for countering them are few. You can either, catch them, dodge them, or be hit by them. The last being the least prefferrable.
Originally posted by: Pervert-Sennin Jiraiya
narutos rasengan isnt weak he just forms it slower and in a diffrent way than jiraiya does.Originally posted by: Hakeem_21
If Naruto rasengan isnt a high level like Jirayas or the 4th Rasengan then i wonder how powerful the rasengan really is cause Narutos weak rasengan almost killed a medical specielist like Kabuto who protected himeself.
I think Jiraya said something about that his rasengan i a low level rasengan compared to his and the fourth cause he hasnt mastered it if he had Kabuto would be dead. Also Jiraya only learned him 3 stages of the rasengan and he said it was six stages to learned it compelitly if i remember my manga well.
Im gonna read agian the chapters when he learns rasengan to be sure.
i agree up till the point where you said "there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu"Originally posted by: SideLabel
Welll Hokage-IV, that's a good question.
The way I see it, there is a difference between a knife, and fire. One is physical, being the knife, and fire is not. Now before anyone starts going all science on my ass (yes I know fire is also physical), let me exlain. A knife will always have the same mass, while a fire will roar up, sink, be blown in all directions, etc. It can also die out in a moment. The knife will always go in the direction you throw it and affected very little by wind. When there is wind combined with fire, you have a big-ass problem on your hands.
To answer your question, yes, Orochimaru could certinally be killed by a standard weapon. He may be one of the strongest ninjas alive, but he is still only human. I base this simply on the "physical" theory in the above paragraph. For one, if Orochimaru didn't bring up his defenses against a fire jutsu, he would most likely be burned alive. If he got a knife stab in the heart, he'd still die. The reason? Using a weapon is not a ninja technique, so to speak. There is no way to build up resistance to a weapon. Sure, you can deflect weapons with other techniques, but there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu.
That is also the reason I think ninjas use weapon. The options for countering them are few. You can either, catch them, dodge them, or be hit by them. The last being the least prefferrable.
its a good theory, but one jutsu that readily comes to mind that can beat projectiles and physical attacks is the kaiten. When neji spun around, he could not only deflect the naruto clones that jumped at him, but the shurikens that naruto threw at him as well. Im pretty sure there are other barrier type jutsus that serve similiar purposes as well
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I believe he is saying a defense that is not active. As in you just stand there and seemingly do nothing. I agree with this theory that if you know the jutsu well enough, it wont really affect you. I also had a theory on hand seals that i posted on the anime forum(because u can't really see how many hand seals are used in the manga) but it goes along the lines that after u learn a jutsu well enough, u can do them without hand seals.
as for the lines
"to appreciate the degree of difficulty of this jutsu, he (4th) was six grades above the second... 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level"
"in order to comprehend the jutsu, you need to be at 3rd grade level jutsu"
I took this statement in actual system of levels of jutsus. This is because i think somewhere it also says that the ransengan is the 2nd hardest jutsu in its level(i think there were like 7 in the level) and that the level was the 2nd highest level of jutsus(meaning above this level there was only 1 more level). I have to check up on that to make sure.
Anyways my theory on this statement is that jiraiya is saying the 4th was able to do jutsus in the highest level(assuming the rasengan is "the second [jutsu in] 'a'-rank ultra-high grade level". However the 4th still took 3 years to learn how to do this jutsu. At the time Jiraiya was saying how difficult this jutsu was to learn.
So basically Jiraiya was saying that even though the 4th knew how do to harder jutsus, the ransengan is fundamentally different to learn than most other high level jutsus. The high level fire and water jutsus the hokages do use seals whereas ransengan uses chakra control.
Well thats my guess anyway.
Originally posted by: SideLabel
Welll Hokage-IV, that's a good question.
The way I see it, there is a difference between a knife, and fire. One is physical, being the knife, and fire is not. Now before anyone starts going all science on my ass (yes I know fire is also physical), let me exlain. A knife will always have the same mass, while a fire will roar up, sink, be blown in all directions, etc. It can also die out in a moment. The knife will always go in the direction you throw it and affected very little by wind. When there is wind combined with fire, you have a big-ass problem on your hands.
To answer your question, yes, Orochimaru could certinally be killed by a standard weapon. He may be one of the strongest ninjas alive, but he is still only human. I base this simply on the "physical" theory in the above paragraph. For one, if Orochimaru didn't bring up his defenses against a fire jutsu, he would most likely be burned alive. If he got a knife stab in the heart, he'd still die. The reason? Using a weapon is not a ninja technique, so to speak. There is no way to build up resistance to a weapon. Sure, you can deflect weapons with other techniques, but there is no way you have a jutsu defense for something that is not a jutsu.
That is also the reason I think ninjas use weapon. The options for countering them are few. You can either, catch them, dodge them, or be hit by them. The last being the least prefferrable.
This is very complex because there is so many aspects to it, and i think ur theory is pretty good
As for me , I don't think Kishimoto is following certain laws that can be indentified precisly . For Example, We know there is gravity in Naruto cuz they cant fly, but they can jump like 50 feet up high and somtimes they can jump 100 feet up high . So which law is he following? the gravity is the same but the ninjas are physically much stronger and their chakra, adds to the equation . which we know its anamoly how much if effects or , is gravity was just simply been modified which is not the same as the real world.
mass theory makes sense and it clears up quite a few things . but if there is a ninjutsu defense , do you consider running away from the jutsu a defense? or do they only have defense against fire? certainly element jutsu are comparable with each other in terms of lvls . we see that they can stand in fire and not get their skin burnt off. Also we ccan see they avoid water jutsu and if they get caught like zabuza did ,we can see the effect of it and that was against his own jutsu.
personally i dont think there is a defense, well actually i do, its called ego
headache headache headache
no laws are being properly followed, but if a ninja jumps 100 feet he probably used a little more chakra to give him a boost, i woudl think its simple as that.
i dont remember anywhere about rasengan being the 2nd highest but that might just be the subs i read.
naruto still needs three hands, his right hand and the clones two hands to mold it. if he can do it with only his one hand would he be equal to jiraiya's???
anyone remember how hatake the coughing ninja died? he attacked the sand nin who said "a sword of metal can be stopped, but not a sword of air'. maybe that jutsu is somewhat similar? although i doubt it is superior to the rasengan if the 4th created it.
damnit i hate having to wait a week for the manga and get so little info each week.
Naruto only needs two hands to do Rasengan...anyone remember inside the fat guys jutsu? He uses Rasengan...or against Sasuke, I believe he uses Rasengan without using a clone
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