Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.
Kthxbye.
Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.
Kthxbye.
Again with the simplistic argument of how strength is the only thing that matters. I thought you were done with your endless and repetitive blathering about Darwinism. Stupid people are always useful to smart people, regardless of time in history... which disproves the 'strength is everything' theory entirely. Look at almost any organized society in history, and you will almost NEVER see the most powerful fighter as a ruler of a country. You may see competent fighters, but what you will really see are masters of manipulation, control, and communication.
'Of course you need minions to follow your orders. But who's going to follow a weak leader. They'd be like I don't want to go because I'll die. But if your leader's strong and he's fighting right alongside you, your morale is automatically better because you believe in your leader abilities.'
This is the perfect example of how dumb your argument is : Look at Hitler & Himmler during WW2, he had MILLIONS of soldiers who fought to the bitter end, even old men and children were mobilized and put into infantry positions on the front lines, and they followed orders even when defeat was obviously inevitable. Hitler and Himmler were both skinny, short, pale, weak people physically, but MASTERS of command and manipulation. Thankfully they chose to go too far too fast with their invasions, and divided their power to the point of destruction. Even if you go back over a thousand years to the times of the Vikings who were raiding Europe, there was no 'Leif is the leader because he is the strongest' kind of idea .. as a matter of fact the most ferocious were the celebrated but often socially removed berserkers. These were the guys who just went totally bananas during the fight, killing and maiming and screaming in a bloodthirsty rampage .. they totally put the fear of god into whoever they came across, even their fellow fighters, but they were NOT LEADERS whatsoever. Or look at Egypt, back up to 5000 years ago, ruled by child pharoahs and spiritual elders .. not warriors whatsoever. If 5,000 years ago is too far, how about Japan during the time that Ninja and Samurai were common? Hmm, ok .. the Edo period began around 1600, with the ambitions of the Tokugawa shogunate controlling political and military power through the pretension of having an emperor who 'appointed' them. Who were the shogun? They were politicians and manipulators, old men with ambition and greed. Classic [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
You're not going to change my mind into some overly simplistic formula for the rules of leadership that does not follow any logic, no matter HOW many times you post it. To truly reach the closest 'strength is everything' situation, you would have to go to the time before language, when cave-dwelling early humans and neaderthals organized small groups to find food and shelter. Even recent research suggests that their primitive societies were more complex than first thought.
In closing, Naruto is of course, just a fictional show based on a collage of Japanese history and modern influence, but yet it remains somewhat logical on a societal level. Kishimoto endows the characters with characteristics of intelligence, compassion (or contempt, in some cases), ambition, regret, a full range of personalities and possibilities. This is why most anime/manga surpasses any other animated work in the world, because the writing and scope of the work is not automatically expected to be less complex or thought-out than live-action fiction. In this world of Naruto, they do not exist as animals living in a pure state of war, where strength is the only thing that ever matters, they exist in a microcosm of history, imagination, and mystique. That's what makes it fun ..
okay im tired of arguing.. lets just leave it at the BEST ninja is chosen for kage as Naruto puts it in the very first episode. And being the best ninja entails of having an overall talent in all cases. So you cant be either horribly weak or horribly stupid. Its just that fighting ability would be a very important factor in a village revolving around ninjas. However, i understand also you need to be able to make decisions for a village to be succesful.
Your topic and title are boring. Nobody gives a shit about rank or power levels. This ain't DBZ. Go away already.Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku
Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Of course you have to be strong, no one said you didn't. What is at debate is whether you have to be THE strongest fighter to be the leader. Also, even if the 3rd hadn't succeeded in sealing Oro's arms, the village would have found a way to fight off the 3rd. Jiraiya was in the area, and he is certainly no weakling!
No it ain't the debate is about who is strongest.. If you read the TOPIC's TITLE you should know
And Memnoch VS Hiten : Game set, and match.
game, set and match? no.. there is no right answer. We're given the right to believe in whatever opinion we want.
[quote]
Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
This is the perfect example of how dumb your argument is : Look at Hitler & Himmler during WW2, he had MILLIONS of soldiers who fought to the bitter end, even old men and children were mobilized and put into infantry positions on the front lines, and they followed orders even when defeat was obviously inevitable. Hitler and Himmler were both skinny, short, pale, weak people physically, but MASTERS of command and manipulation. Thankfully they chose to go too far too fast with their invasions, and divided their power to the point of destruction. Even if you go back over a thousand years to the times of the Vikings who were raiding Europe, there was no 'Leif is the leader because he is the strongest' kind of idea .. as a matter of fact the most ferocious were the celebrated but often socially removed berserkers. These were the guys who just went totally bananas during the fight, killing and maiming and screaming in a bloodthirsty rampage .. they totally put the fear of god into whoever they came across, even their fellow fighters, but they were NOT LEADERS whatsoever. Or look at Egypt, back up to 5000 years ago, ruled by child pharoahs and spiritual elders .. not warriors whatsoever. If 5,000 years ago is too far, how about Japan during the time that Ninja and Samurai were common? Hmm, ok .. the Edo period began around 1600, with the ambitions of the Tokugawa shogunate controlling political and military power through the pretension of having an emperor who 'appointed' them. Who were the shogun? They were politicians and manipulators, old men with ambition and greed. Classic [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
q]
FYI,
Yes, that's a perfect example in support of my argument. You used a real life person. That's great. I didn't want to lead into that. In real life there are no jutsus, so your physique doesn't matter. However there are many guns. You see, everyone feared Hitler, even his own top generals were scared of assasinating him. Why? Because he was extremely strong. It's funny that you bring up physical characteristics, because in the real world, a body builder can easily be shot by a "pale skinny" guy. Just to educate you a little more, if you ever bump into a pale skinny guy and he's punking you, don't mess with him because chances are he's carrying. You see the pale skinny guy can't put up much of a physical fight so he'll just shoot you instead. Whereas a body builder will just beat the crap out of you, but at least you're still alive. Don't forget where the manga ends and reality begins. See, Hitler would be like Oro in Naruto's world, trying to cleanse the world of Konoha, with his mad skills and ninjas. Please don't bring up examples without carefullly thinking it through.
Careful when you use your jutsu, or it will be used against you.
Twice I've held back at you using the word "dumb or brick headed." If you can't appreciate a debate then don't respond. I can appreciate your responses, even though I know you're wrong.
Oh, and I'm not trying to convince you. You're free to believe what you want.
LOL... I felt a personal duty to educate the greenhorn.Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.
is hiten the one that believes that a current kage chooses his/her next kage because that person is stronger than the current one? or is it someone else...
You're applying real life theories (such as darwinism) but, Memnoch can't use analogies regarding real life people? How is that any different?
.. Well(then ok).. Shika is a genius who only can rely on his brain he got no real powers but the shadow.. And that's got a limit too.. And actually we haven't seen the limit of Kyubi's chakra yet.. Yea Naruto beated up Haku with it but there it was about to break and he was starting to look like a fox and that only happened there cause he was mad. And Naruto is a strong guy but has no real "Genius" brain as shika but he will still be able to beat him as hokage cause seriously shika sucks at figthing.
Brain > Strength
Brain < Strength if you know how to use it
Naruto without Kyubi chakra and don't uses his own powers rigth < Shika
Naruto if he uses his powers rigth > Shika
Naruto With kyubi chakra and not using his own powers rigth > Shika
Naruto with kyubi chakra and using his own powers rigth > Shika
Over all
Naruto: 4
Shika : 2
And since Naruto knows how to actually use his own powers and don't have to rely on Kyubi all the time he would win Shika way big but Naruto has a weird dream he wants to figth all the time and that isn't what a Hokage do a Hokage is mostly a politician who has to think his/hers way out of a conflict and only use his own powers if it is absolutely critically.. And we know that Naruto would fit better as a Sennin when he grows up and becomes stronger then he can travel around and do stuff instead of sitting on his butt all the time and talking and talking and only figthing like 3 times in his Hokage period..
Shika would be a overall better Hokage cause he is a friggin Genius but he is... Well a sissy when it comes to figthing..
But Naruto is overall a better figther:
Kyubi Chakra
Kage Bushin No jutsu(and the extended parts of it he made up himself)
Uzumaki Naruto Combo
The Naruto 2000 Combo
And some others but would be Spoiling...
Quoted by HitenGokuSonGoku that was bad...... what you just did...........ill let YOU figure it out.Yes, someone like Itachi or Oro would be more suitable for hokage.
Orochimaru would not make a good Kage, because he doesn't care about protecting the village. So what if he is powerfull? He isn't going to protect anyone, which makes him a pretty useless Kage, a Kage that does not want to protect anyone. We all seen him treat his solders. They all end up dead. He is definitely not fit to be a Kage. You should rethink this, and try to open yourself to better oppinions and faqs.
When did i say: Itachi or Oro would be suitable as a Kage?..
Hiten, are you aware that
1 - Your response made little to no sense .. what on earth does much of any of what you said have to do with what we were discussing? 'Careful with your jutsu'? WTF are you talking about? You made analogies to, and I quote, 'Darwinistic' situations in history, and you object to me using real historical leaders as examples that totally disprove you? You ignore the Pharoahs, or the Edo Emperor/Shugunate as examples of leaders without 'Strength'. Virtually all great leaders accomplish their tasks by macromanagement of their administrative system.. not micromanaging by fighting individual battles themselves.
and
2 - Guns don't change the situation of leadership/strength WHATSOEVER. Long before firearms existed, commanders and leaders were not necessarily great fighters, but just smart and calculating.. throughout the world and various societies that have existed throughout history. This fact you completely ignore in your endless ranting about how 'strength is everything'. If I had the time, I could give you easily dozens of famous historical leaders that commanded great armies and lands .. that were NOT strong fighters whatsoever.
and
3 - You can't make a case for there being any logical exception to the fact that to lead, being charismatic, intelligent, creative, and manipulative are the key factors for success. Strength has next to nothing to do with it most of the time.
4 - It's bizarre that you responded about physical characteristics and then proceed to make assumptions. You can never tell who is carrying a gun, whether they are physically jacked or 90lbs soaking wet .. assumption / presumption / prejudice is the earmark of the mentally weak.
EDIT : GokuSg, I think jing got you mixed up with what Hiten was blathering about ..
Shikamaru w/a bowl of ramen as his weapon> Dimwitted Naruto w/all his Kyuubi goodnessOriginally posted by: GokuSonGoku
.. Well(then ok).. Shika is a genius who only can rely on his brain he got no real powers but the shadow.. And that's got a limit too.. And actually we haven't seen the limit of Kyubi's chakra yet.. Yea Naruto beated up Haku with it but there it was about to break and he was starting to look like a fox and that only happened there cause he was mad. And Naruto is a strong guy but has no real "Genius" brain as shika but he will still be able to beat him as hokage cause seriously shika sucks at figthing.
Brain > Strength
Brain < Strength if you know how to use it
Naruto without Kyubi chakra and don't uses his own powers rigth < Shika
Naruto if he uses his powers rigth > Shika
Naruto With kyubi chakra and not using his own powers rigth > Shika
Naruto with kyubi chakra and using his own powers rigth > Shika
Over all
Naruto: 4
Shika : 2
And since Naruto knows how to actually use his own powers and don't have to rely on Kyubi all the time he would win Shika way big but Naruto has a weird dream he wants to figth all the time and that isn't what a Hokage do a Hokage is mostly a politician who has to think his/hers way out of a conflict and only use his own powers if it is absolutely critically.. And we know that Naruto would fit better as a Sennin when he grows up and becomes stronger then he can travel around and do stuff instead of sitting on his butt all the time and talking and talking and only figthing like 3 times in his Hokage period..
Shika would be a overall better Hokage cause he is a friggin Genius but he is... Well a sissy when it comes to figthing..
But Naruto is overall a better figther:
Kyubi Chakra
Kage Bushin No jutsu(and the extended parts of it he made up himself)
Uzumaki Naruto Combo
The Naruto 2000 Combo
And some others but would be Spoiling...
Good post GokuSonGoku .. no argument from me .. as a singular fighting force, Naruto is well beyond Shikamaru's level. The fact remains that for leadership/mission planning & execution/intuitive variables .. Shikamaru is *currently* well beyond Naruto's level. They make an excellent team, because they complement each other's abilities so well. Naruto has the brawn, heart, and combat creativity, while Shika has the massive intellect and planning/leading abilities. When (if?), Naruto becomes Hokage, which I believe he will .. he should keep Shika (a Jounin to be?) .. close at hand as a trusted advisor [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
You didn't.Originally posted by: GokuSonGoku
When did i say: Itachi or Oro would be suitable as a Kage?..
1. I'm not objecting to your use of hitler. I'm stating that when you use real historical figures, they can't perform jutsus like in the manga. I really wished that you would take that into perspective. Theres a difference between stating that Darwinism does indeed work in Naruto's world and stating that Hitler is weak because he can't perform jutsus or isn't physically strong. Remember that strength is indeed transient. As time changes, strength is redefined. Hitler was a perfect example of strength. You are merely implying that he was physically weak. What don't you understand?Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Hiten, are you aware that
1 - Your response made little to no sense .. what on earth does much of any of what you said have to do with what we were discussing? 'Careful with your jutsu'? WTF are you talking about? You made analogies to, and I quote, 'Darwinistic' situations in history, and you object to me using real historical leaders as examples that totally disprove you? You ignore the Pharoahs, or the Edo Emperor/Shugunate as examples of leaders without 'Strength'. Virtually all great leaders accomplish their tasks by macromanagement of their administrative system.. not micromanaging by fighting individual battles themselves.
and
2 - Guns don't change the situation of leadership/strength WHATSOEVER. Long before firearms existed, commanders and leaders were not necessarily great fighters, but just smart and calculating.. throughout the world and various societies that have existed throughout history. This fact you completely ignore in your endless ranting about how 'strength is everything'. If I had the time, I could give you easily dozens of famous historical leaders that commanded great armies and lands .. that were NOT strong fighters whatsoever.
and
3 - You can't make a case for there being any logical exception to the fact that to lead, being charismatic, intelligent, creative, and manipulative are the key factors for success. Strength has next to nothing to do with it most of the time.
4 - It's bizarre that you responded about physical characteristics and then proceed to make assumptions. You can never tell who is carrying a gun, whether they are physically jacked or 90lbs soaking wet .. assumption / presumption / prejudice is the earmark of the mentally weak.
EDIT : GokuSg, I think jing got you mixed up with what Hiten was blathering about ..
Why do you bring up kings, pharoahs, and emporors? It weakens your argument. Did you forget that they lead by lineage (not intelligent leadership, like you claim)? Do you know how much in-breeding occurs? That throws your "intelligience" premise out the window.
2. Sorry but in societies guns make a difference and the ability to use it without regard for human life. Here are some examples gangs, and warlords in Africa. The introduction of guns was one of the main reasons the meiji era was successful in abolishing the samurai. Don't be so ignorant, guns don't matter! It's like an indian tribe with bows and arrows shooting a tank.
3. Those are all easy characteristics to attain. As long as you can speak you can be manipulative, just plain lieing is manipulation. As long as you are born with just average intelligence, you can become creative. If the leader was always the smartest, then why the hell does he need so much council? Strength is the hardest to attain (no, i'm not just talking physique here).
4. Not assumptions, basic psychology. Look at historical accounts of murderers. Then you can compare physique if you like. People are "physically jacked" take pride in their muscles. They just naturally want to beat the crap out of you with their hands. Anyways, just read a little about psychology, you can learn something.
Darwinism occurs/applies to all things. Do you not agree that it applies to the world of Naruto? Just the fact that the third hokage (of old age) loss to Oro, suggest that Darwinism's theory applies. I'm not saying that he couldn't use hitler. I was just stating that it supported my claim.You're applying real life theories (such as darwinism) but, Memnoch can't use analogies regarding real life people? How is that any different?
You only say this because of your bias towards Oro. So what if he doesn't care about protecting the village, that may only apply to Leaf village. How do we know that any of the other kages from the other village feel the way Konoha did? We don't because none of the other ones have been introduced. They may be as sadistic as Oro. Why does not protecting anyone make him useless? His soldiers end up dead, and yet so many more are willing to die for him. He is kage of the sound. You should put away your bias and rethink your thoughts. Obviously you didn't think it through from every perspespective.Orochimaru would not make a good Kage, because he doesn't care about protecting the village. So what if he is powerfull? He isn't going to protect anyone, which makes him a pretty useless Kage, a Kage that does not want to protect anyone. We all seen him treat his solders. They all end up dead. He is definitely not fit to be a Kage. You should rethink this, and try to open yourself to better oppinions and faqs.
i don't think orochimaru is an official 'kage' of the sound yet. i don't think they even have people living in that village to be even considered a village. i think orochimaru just somehow acquired a large piece of land and claimed it as his own.
I don't think Oro is an official Kage either, or else the 3rd and Konoha would've been more aware of the danger of having the new Sound village participate in the exam.
let me clear out something here.
Orochimaru isn't a kage.
only the leaders of the five great villiages can become a kage (it's stated in chapter 7-8 of the manga, and episode 6 of the anime).
the sound is probably a legit villiage, just that it's elite are ran by orochimaru directly to aid his cause, they had quite a few participants in the chunin exam, and only Dosu's team had a mission (to kill\test Sasuke).
moving on, Orochimaru wouldn't make a good Kage, since he doesn't have any feelings of obligation towards his villiage, which means he might abandon it if a newer toy comes by.
sig made by Itachi-y2k5, thanks, dude!
Currently Watching: probably a show directed at 9 years old girls, lets be honest.
You know the important distinction between Batman and me? Batman is fictional. In real life, there isn't always an alternative.
Lmao Hiten, you have directly contradicted yourself so many times, that I no longer have anything I need to say to you [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
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