Ranklist

[MemnochTheCaT]

I couldn't disagree more, and you seem to also miss the point, which is incredible given the amount of information posted in this thread. You seem to even argue with yourself in your own post .. and fail to acknowledge that there are many powerful fighters to choose from at any given time.

The comparison of Shika was in terms of leadership/rank, and is valid. Of course Shika isn't Hokage material right now, NONE of the chuunin/genin are, that's just silly. What IS clear, is that Shika got promoted to Chuunin, while Neji/Naruto/Lee/etc did NOT get promoted. Did the others get robbed? No, because the rank of Chuunin requires someone to be intelligent, responsible, and have the greatest ability to lead missions successfully + keep their team alive, as WELL as being a competent fighter. If fighting was the primary reason for getting promoted, then Naruto would have become chuunin, not Shika. EVERY position of rank, when you are responsible for the organization and protection of the village, requires much more than pure fighting skill, and it's the job of the government to make sure the right people get into the right positions..

Also, answer me this : why would the strongest fighter in the village necessarily be the leader? If they are serving the same village, the strongest fighter could easily contribute all of his fighting skills as a right-hand man instead of the commander. But the best commander can't contribute everything he has to offer if he is not in a position of authority. It's simple logic .. not to mention it would create chaos to change your ruler every single time someone stronger appears.

[originalkrn]

well i wasnt saying that they be hokage right now, i was just comparing them to compare str vs. int with characters that we know... and Shika got lucky cuz in the prelims, where it really wasnt graded, he versed someone he could be on par with in fighting ability. And Lee didnt get chunin cuz guess wat? he couldnt reach the finals because he nearly got killed by Gaara. If Shika had matched up with Lee, Sasuke, Naruto, or Gaara in the prelims, hed be over too and would not have made it to the finals. And the strongest fighter in the village would be the leader because hey... this is a show about ninjas and fighting not about having some government position.

[MemnochTheCaT]

OriginalKrn : Yeap this is a fictional show .. but without any logic it would disintegrate into meaningless chaos, thankfully it is pretty sensible in its logic overall. There are ranks, responsibilities, risks, rewards .. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] And there are different opinions to share on it .. we just have notably different ones in this case .. no big deal [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

EDIT : Yeap, Jing again with an excellent assessment of Shika's well-deserved Chuunin ranking.

[hiten mitsurugi]

You guys are really thinking about the ideal leader of todays time. When you should really be thinking about what it takes to be a leader of a more darwinistic period.

leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest.

Yes, someone like Itachi or Oro would be more suitable for hokage.
Oro was kage of the sounds, and a damn good one at that. Itachi could attain that status as well, if he wanted to. Once again seriously, you guys should get your heads out of the clouds, because your describing your ideal leader.

A good example of what would happen to a weak kage would be the Kage of the Sands.

Yes, either Tsunade or Jaraiya would have been selected as Hokage by the third, but they left the village out of their own will.

Strength defines everything, especially in a Darwinistic era. I wish I could show you people first hand, that your stupid ideals go out the freaking window, when your life is at stake.

See I'm one who believes that human beings don't evolve anymore, because of all these laws that protect the weak. Here's an example, healthy wolves stay healthy and ensure that their genes get passed on to new offsprings. A wolf who isn't healthy or old will die off ensuring that only the strongest genes will remain in the new offsprings. Humans aren't like that anymore. Weak humans who breed like rats ensure that even more stupid offsprings arise. Who do you think takes care of those offspring? The penal system or the State. This world is full of the helpless and weak. I pity our species. I also pity people who speak of ideals just because it sounds good, but don't believe a word of it.

[Death BOO Z]

Hiten...
even in medevil times, the general (AKA Leaders of the army) weren't the best soldiers, they were the most comptant strategices and the most relieble persons to get the army to do what he should do.

another thing, let's say that there's a fight in the village, a strong hokage would go there and fight by himself, right? but what happens when there's a war? the hokage can't be everywhere and he can't fight everyone, he needs subordintes to carry on his orders, and he needs to be able to make all millitarry decisions (withdraw, chase, surrender...), and for that he needs to get all the information from the battle field, which means he needs his hands and head clear, to be able to make the right decisions when the time comes.

if the kazekage would have excelled in thinking, maybe he would have found out about Orochimaru's plan to kill him, and then he would have made a secret agreement with the leaf about radicaiting the sound?

Itachi's skills were better used in the ANBU rather than in the hokage's office, the role of hokage would only limit his actions and waste his power.


last thing, human eveolution hasn't eccoured in the last 10000 years, a few generations of kindness to your fellow man won't change anything...

anyway, it's 00:50, so good night, people!

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
Hiten...
even in medevil times, the general (AKA Leaders of the army) weren't the best soldiers, they were the most comptant strategices and the most relieble persons to get the army to do what he should do.

another thing, let's say that there's a fight in the village, a strong hokage would go there and fight by himself, right? but what happens when there's a war? the hokage can't be everywhere and he can't fight everyone, he needs subordintes to carry on his orders, and he needs to be able to make all millitarry decisions (withdraw, chase, surrender...), and for that he needs to get all the information from the battle field, which means he needs his hands and head clear, to be able to make the right decisions when the time comes.

if the kazekage would have excelled in thinking, maybe he would have found out about Orochimaru's plan to kill him, and then he would have made a secret agreement with the leaf about radicaiting the sound?

The medieval times are a poor example, since there was always a caste system. Born a peaseant died a peasant. They would have never rose to power. People of power were related by blood. However, it is a good example of marrying your cousin.

Of course you need minions to follow your orders. But who's going to follow a weak leader. They'd be like I don't want to go because I'll die. But if your leader's strong and he's fighting right alongside you, your morale is automatically better because you believe in your leader abilities.

Kazekage died because he was weak. That's all there is to it. It wouldn't have mattered if he excelled in thinking. Once you meet someon stronger than yourself. Death is inevitable.

[Hotsuma]

Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.

Kthxbye.

[originalkrn]

okay im tired of arguing.. lets just leave it at the BEST ninja is chosen for kage as Naruto puts it in the very first episode. And being the best ninja entails of having an overall talent in all cases. So you cant be either horribly weak or horribly stupid. Its just that fighting ability would be a very important factor in a village revolving around ninjas. However, i understand also you need to be able to make decisions for a village to be succesful.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Again with the simplistic argument of how strength is the only thing that matters. I thought you were done with your endless and repetitive blathering about Darwinism. Stupid people are always useful to smart people, regardless of time in history... which disproves the 'strength is everything' theory entirely. Look at almost any organized society in history, and you will almost NEVER see the most powerful fighter as a ruler of a country. You may see competent fighters, but what you will really see are masters of manipulation, control, and communication.

'Of course you need minions to follow your orders. But who's going to follow a weak leader. They'd be like I don't want to go because I'll die. But if your leader's strong and he's fighting right alongside you, your morale is automatically better because you believe in your leader abilities.'

This is the perfect example of how dumb your argument is : Look at Hitler & Himmler during WW2, he had MILLIONS of soldiers who fought to the bitter end, even old men and children were mobilized and put into infantry positions on the front lines, and they followed orders even when defeat was obviously inevitable. Hitler and Himmler were both skinny, short, pale, weak people physically, but MASTERS of command and manipulation. Thankfully they chose to go too far too fast with their invasions, and divided their power to the point of destruction. Even if you go back over a thousand years to the times of the Vikings who were raiding Europe, there was no 'Leif is the leader because he is the strongest' kind of idea .. as a matter of fact the most ferocious were the celebrated but often socially removed berserkers. These were the guys who just went totally bananas during the fight, killing and maiming and screaming in a bloodthirsty rampage .. they totally put the fear of god into whoever they came across, even their fellow fighters, but they were NOT LEADERS whatsoever. Or look at Egypt, back up to 5000 years ago, ruled by child pharoahs and spiritual elders .. not warriors whatsoever. If 5,000 years ago is too far, how about Japan during the time that Ninja and Samurai were common? Hmm, ok .. the Edo period began around 1600, with the ambitions of the Tokugawa shogunate controlling political and military power through the pretension of having an emperor who 'appointed' them. Who were the shogun? They were politicians and manipulators, old men with ambition and greed. Classic [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

You're not going to change my mind into some overly simplistic formula for the rules of leadership that does not follow any logic, no matter HOW many times you post it. To truly reach the closest 'strength is everything' situation, you would have to go to the time before language, when cave-dwelling early humans and neaderthals organized small groups to find food and shelter. Even recent research suggests that their primitive societies were more complex than first thought.

In closing, Naruto is of course, just a fictional show based on a collage of Japanese history and modern influence, but yet it remains somewhat logical on a societal level. Kishimoto endows the characters with characteristics of intelligence, compassion (or contempt, in some cases), ambition, regret, a full range of personalities and possibilities. This is why most anime/manga surpasses any other animated work in the world, because the writing and scope of the work is not automatically expected to be less complex or thought-out than live-action fiction. In this world of Naruto, they do not exist as animals living in a pure state of war, where strength is the only thing that ever matters, they exist in a microcosm of history, imagination, and mystique. That's what makes it fun ..

[hiten mitsurugi]

[quote]
Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
This is the perfect example of how dumb your argument is : Look at Hitler & Himmler during WW2, he had MILLIONS of soldiers who fought to the bitter end, even old men and children were mobilized and put into infantry positions on the front lines, and they followed orders even when defeat was obviously inevitable. Hitler and Himmler were both skinny, short, pale, weak people physically, but MASTERS of command and manipulation. Thankfully they chose to go too far too fast with their invasions, and divided their power to the point of destruction. Even if you go back over a thousand years to the times of the Vikings who were raiding Europe, there was no 'Leif is the leader because he is the strongest' kind of idea .. as a matter of fact the most ferocious were the celebrated but often socially removed berserkers. These were the guys who just went totally bananas during the fight, killing and maiming and screaming in a bloodthirsty rampage .. they totally put the fear of god into whoever they came across, even their fellow fighters, but they were NOT LEADERS whatsoever. Or look at Egypt, back up to 5000 years ago, ruled by child pharoahs and spiritual elders .. not warriors whatsoever. If 5,000 years ago is too far, how about Japan during the time that Ninja and Samurai were common? Hmm, ok .. the Edo period began around 1600, with the ambitions of the Tokugawa shogunate controlling political and military power through the pretension of having an emperor who 'appointed' them. Who were the shogun? They were politicians and manipulators, old men with ambition and greed. Classic [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
q]

FYI,

Yes, that's a perfect example in support of my argument. You used a real life person. That's great. I didn't want to lead into that. In real life there are no jutsus, so your physique doesn't matter. However there are many guns. You see, everyone feared Hitler, even his own top generals were scared of assasinating him. Why? Because he was extremely strong. It's funny that you bring up physical characteristics, because in the real world, a body builder can easily be shot by a "pale skinny" guy. Just to educate you a little more, if you ever bump into a pale skinny guy and he's punking you, don't mess with him because chances are he's carrying. You see the pale skinny guy can't put up much of a physical fight so he'll just shoot you instead. Whereas a body builder will just beat the crap out of you, but at least you're still alive. Don't forget where the manga ends and reality begins. See, Hitler would be like Oro in Naruto's world, trying to cleanse the world of Konoha, with his mad skills and ninjas. Please don't bring up examples without carefullly thinking it through.

Careful when you use your jutsu, or it will be used against you.

Twice I've held back at you using the word "dumb or brick headed." If you can't appreciate a debate then don't respond. I can appreciate your responses, even though I know you're wrong.

Oh, and I'm not trying to convince you. You're free to believe what you want.

Oh yeah, Hiten. Read the Naruto manga sometimes.

LOL... I felt a personal duty to educate the greenhorn.