Ranklist

[avmoghe]

.. I'm having trouble following your logic.

You're looking at what happened in the 3rd vs Orochimaru fight... and using that to put the 4TH hokage over Orochimaru in terms of fighting ability?

I do not understand how Orochimaru's performance vs the third hokage can be used as any sort of an indication of ability as compared with the FOURTH hokage.
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Gaara may be the most powerful being in the village.. but there's a very good reason why he isn't hokage... he's insane.. as you said [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I assumed that you would agree that insanity disqualifies candidacy for Hokage... much like a direct refusal to be a hokage.

So lemme take away the assumptions I made...
a better way to define the word Hokage would be: the strongest non-insane ninja in the village who doesn't refuse to be a Hokage.

Gaara's insanity immediately disqualifies him from being Hokage.

So.. let me get to the point... to provide a counter example, you would have to find a case where an individual is stronger than the village Hokage and is also not insane, and wants to be Hokage... and yet he isn't a the Hokage.

So if you can show me an example of that, I'll admit that the Hokage isn't the strongest person in the village.

Note: insane, for the purposes of this discussion, is defined as someone who kills his own people, or kills without reason

[MemnochTheCaT]

You also have to take into account that not everyone WANTS to be hokage [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] And yes, I am looking at the 3rd vs. Oro fight and taking it as a significant example of the probablility that 4th > Orochimaru.

Why? The 3rd had to retire once, probably because he was getting too old, and the 4th had reached a level that exceeded the 3rd's waning powers .. and that was 12+ years ago. Oro has already taken younger, stronger bodies while the 3rd just got older and weaker.

So .. if 4th > 3rd at the 3rd's original retirement, and the much OLDER 3rd very nearly OWNED Oro despite being OUTNUMBERED by OTHER HOKAGES .. then it would make sense that the 4th was well above Oro in pure fighting ability, considering he was most likely a better fighter (why else would the 3rd have to retire? .. the 3rd had incredible intelligence and experience, and he wouldn't trust his village to just anyone!). Just connect the obvious..

[avmoghe]

whoa wait...
At the time of the 3rd Hokage's retirement (and after) BOTH Orochimaru and the 4th were stronger than the 3rd...

He would'nt have retired otherwise as you say. Orochimaru was his first choice.. but when he could'nt get him (due to the way the word Hokage was defined in the last post), he picked the 4th.

Orochimaru during the fight was far stronger than the 3rd. The ONLY reason he managed to nearly kill Orochimaru was because he knew the death god technique.... thats it.

I mean.. the technique is used when the opponent is stronger than the user.. its a last resort [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] The 4th hokage managed to seal the demon with that technique.. but does that mean he's anywhere near in power compared to the demon? Obviously not, since we know its quite the opposite.

In the exact same way, 3rd almost killed Orochimaru using that technique, but that doesn't mean that the 3rd is anywhere near Orochimaru in power

I don't see whats the big deal with using Hokages to fight? They're orochimaru's tools... exacltly like that monkey thing, or gamabunta. The tools add to the strength of the one who owns the tools. The Hokages are just a part Orochimaru's overall strength... in the same way that the monkey thing is a part of the 3rd overall strength

[MemnochTheCaT]

I'm not so sure about Oro strengths being his fighting skills .. but rather his intelligence and wide knowledge of jutsu. His performance against the 3rd was horrible, he had to rely on summoned HOKAGES and long-range jutsu to stand a chance. And he was in a young body compared to the 3rd, who was in a VERY old body. No, I think the 3rd had Oro in mind for being a choice for Hokage because Oro is very smart and creative... and would make a great leader, if he wasn't so twisted.

Think of it this way .. Shikamaru would make a 100x better Hokage than Naruto (at this point in the story), because Shika is SMARTER than Naruto. Does this mean that Shika stands much of a chance against Naruto in a fight? NO, of course not, by all accounts Naruto would simply overpower Shika (unless Shika could come up with a miracle).

I think it's probably similar to the 4th vs. Oro .. 4th being more of a pure fighter, tons of chakra and heart, but not necessarily very bright. Oro being more of the calculating intellectual, who memorizes tons of details and knows psychology and manipulation very well.

EDIT : Summoning definitely is a measure of someone's ability, but certainly isn't a measure of someone's STRENGTH .. would anyone say that Naruto is stronger than the 3rd, simply because Gamabunta is a lot more powerful than the Monkey King? No, because that's ridiculous [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] Summonings have their own powers and personalities, that cannot be measured purely as extensions of those who call upon them. And it is also clear that using human sacrifices to raise DEAD Hokages is a very cheap technique .. if Oro was truly strong he wouldn't have NEEDED to call them to just to beat up a VERY elderly man.

Oro = overrated

[avmoghe]

I don't see how Oro's performance was miserable? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

As for Naruto and Shikamaru - I don't think they'll pick shikamaru over Naruto for Hokage. Since both are non-insane (dont kill their own people) and assuming both want to be hokage.. they will pick Naruto I think due to his strength [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] (yes IN SPITE of Shikamaru's intellect). Either way.. its a moot point since we are both speculating on what might happen. Until I see an example of the strongest person (not insane, and wants to be hokage) not being hokage, I'll keep believing that Hokage is the strongest.
Only time will tell which one of us is right [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Hotsuma]

Okay. You must be on crack or something avmoghe. Anybody with common sense (and have read the story, which you obviously have not ) could see what characteristics are required to become Hokage.

When you're Hokage, you REPRESENT the village, or country itself. Why the fuck would the council hire some insane kid to be the flag of their own town? Unless of course, it's a dictatorship, where that said person just rules via take over, but that's unlikely.

Strength VS Intellect, common sense, leadership qualities. See Chuunin exam.

And where did you get the fact that the 2 dead Hokages were using Oro's own chakra? In either case, it's a 3 on 1 fight. 2 of which are as strong, if not stronger than the 3rds old body.

[Death BOO Z]

Originally posted by: avmoghe

Whats wrong with using summoned Hokages? How is it any different from using any other technique? I don't get why you say its cheaper than regular fire breath or fighting with his snake hands. Summoning Hokage's is a part of his power...its no different from him using any other techinque he has. The hokages are using Oro's power to fight... they don't have any chakra themselves... they are just dead bodies using Oro's own power.

The hokage summoning is completely different type of tool from summoning the monkey king or gamabunta who has his own chakra to fight.

You may be able to differentiate the 3rd from the monkey because the monkey is a separate entity with life and strength of his own. The hokages cannot be differentiated from Oro because they are just lifeless puppets using Oro's own chakra.

I guess you missed out the point where the 3rd refears to the fact they'll continue fighting even if Orochimaru is dead...

it kinda prooves out that they have chackra of thier own, doesn't it?

[avmoghe]

death boo: eh... how does that show that they are not using orochiamru's chakra?

Its not like they have to be getting it from him constantly. He can just give a certain amount to them when he raises them at the begining. As long as that amount doesn't run out, Orochimaru can die. I mean.. they are just dead bodies. Dead bodies don't have chakra. The only source for them to get the chakra from is orochimaru... its not like chakra can just appear out of nowhere in non-living objects right? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

hotsumma: no. I'm not on crack. No one is picking an insane kid to be their flag. I'm saying that if the council had NO CHOICE but to let Naruto or Shikamaru become Hokage.. they will pick Naruto because of his strength. Its not like Naruto has to handle the administration individually.. he has jounins to help him out and advise him. needless to say, that situation wont happen for a good long while... it will happen when both Naruto and Shikamaru have matured some more. The point I'm trying to make is they will pick a stronger person with above-average intelligence over a significantly weaker person with genius level intelligence.

Remember, we are talking about Orochimaru and the 4th here.. its a pretty safe assumption that both had atleast average intelligence.. they were BOTH known as genius ninja's. the naruto -shika thing is just an analogy... the real question is orochimaru vs. the 4th for Hokage. Obviously both DID have the necessary qualities to become Hokage (as far as intelligence is concerned)... I'm trying to say that the fact that when BOTH had sufficient intelligence, and given the fact that Oro was the 3rd's first choice... that should be sufficient to show that Oro was picked because of his strength.

both oro and the 4th had the sufficient mental abilities to become hokage (oro's intelligence is obvious.. and the 4th intelligence can be shown through the fact that he council DID pick him to be Hokage).... yet the 3rd picked Oro over the 4th. I'm saying that must have been because he was stronger than the 4th.

[MemnochTheCaT]

If you think strength is the only requirement for Hokage, then you're just insane. Oro doesn't seem to be all that strong, having such a difficult time even after he has stolen a new body to fight an extremely elderly man with. Having the new body wasn't enough, he had to summon dead hokages to do his fighting for him (which, having human sacrifices for being the conduit, probably supply the chakra, NOT Oro, all he did was stab them with activating Kunai!). A very cheap, and highly forbidden technique, for obvious reasons.

As for Naruto being hokage .. maybe someday far far off, I actually believe he will achieve his goal, but he has tons of growing to do. Shikamaru is actually already ready for the task intellectually, and I stand by that at THIS POINT in the story, he is a better choice. It is quite obvious that the Hokage's main duty is ANYthing but fighting. How many times did we see the 3rd engage in combat? ONCE! The Kage's main duty is diplomacy and administration of the government .. can you see Naruto spending more than 5 minutes on that without going berserk and incinerating the scroll he is supposed to read and sign? The point I am trying to make (based on Oro's GLARING weaknesses in combat), is that Oro was more INTELLECTUALLY fit for Hokage, and would serve Konoha better by doing the work that is required in a more intuitive and effective manner than someone with less intelligence (ie- the 4th, someone who Naruto is constantly compared to). Based on what little we've heard about the 4th, we know that he was vastly powerful, was very passionate about his village and people, and had some very high-level jutsu. But we don't hear anything particular about him being clever or anything beyond somewhat creative. There is obviously MUCH more to being hokage than just being strong. But the POSITION automatically MAKES ONE the strongest (measured by authority and responsibility) of the village.

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: avmoghe
death boo: eh... how does that show that they are not using orochiamru's chakra?

Its not like they have to be getting it from him constantly. He can just give a certain amount to them when he raises them at the begining. As long as that amount doesn't run out, Orochimaru can die. I mean.. they are just dead bodies. Dead bodies don't have chakra. The only source for them to get the chakra from is orochimaru... its not like chakra can just appear out of nowhere in non-living objects right? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

hotsumma: no. I'm not on crack. No one is picking an insane kid to be their flag. I'm saying that if the council had NO CHOICE but to let Naruto or Shikamaru become Hokage.. they will pick Naruto because of his strength. Its not like Naruto has to handle the administration individually.. he has jounins to help him out and advise him. needless to say, that situation wont happen for a good long while... it will happen when both Naruto and Shikamaru have matured some more. The point I'm trying to make is they will pick a stronger person with above-average intelligence over a significantly weaker person with genius level intelligence.

Remember, we are talking about Orochimaru and the 4th here.. its a pretty safe assumption that both had atleast average intelligence.. they were BOTH known as genius ninja's. the naruto -shika thing is just an analogy... the real question is orochimaru vs. the 4th for Hokage. Obviously both DID have the necessary qualities to become Hokage (as far as intelligence is concerned)... I'm trying to say that the fact that when BOTH had sufficient intelligence, and given the fact that Oro was the 3rd's first choice... that should be sufficient to show that Oro was picked because of his strength.

both oro and the 4th had the sufficient mental abilities to become hokage (oro's intelligence is obvious.. and the 4th intelligence can be shown through the fact that he council DID pick him to be Hokage).... yet the 3rd picked Oro over the 4th. I'm saying that must have been because he was stronger than the 4th.

Sorry to pop your bubble, but Orochimaru was a fucking pussy. Why? He needed 2 summoned Hokages to fight out an old man. An OLD MAN! Now, what was he doing, when the 3 were duking it out? He was sitting back, talking mad shit. Oh, and I doubt Oro was really controlling the 2 Hokage's chakra levels. Sacrifices were made after all, for the summoning. They were listening to him, because of a contract. Against their wishes.

And, hypothetically speaking....


Where the FUCK do you get that Naruto is above average in intelligence? It's been established via missions, tests and through other characters that Naruto completely lacks everything required to be a intelligent, resourceful ninja. He relies on pure strength to get him through. Also, saying that he relies on lower level Jounin to help him out? Ok. Weak. There are more than one jounins in the village. Has it ever occured to you there might be, oh I dunno, bias on each jounins parts? Once again, Hokage is the highest rank in any village. It's illogical to listen to lower ranks. Would a Jounin listen to a Chuunin? Chuunin, a genin? Genin, a student? No.

And I reiterate. They didn't choose Chuunins based on pure strength. Why else did only Shikamaru become one? He is smart, resourceful, cunning, and calm. Given Naruto's current character (and his defining one), how can anybody with common sense elect him as Hokage?


Getting to the 4th VS Oro in Hokage election. Strength is important in becoming Hokage. But important as heart? Compassion? No. Why do you think Jiraiya and Tsunade always believe Naruto to be the next (well future) Hokage? His strength? No. They never once mention his skill in battle as a requirement for becoming Hokage. Besides that, the 4th didn't hide behind his cronies when fighting his own battle, hah. Oh, and I do believe the 4th was stronger than Orochimaru. Back in the Chuunin days, when Anko was telling 3rd about Hokage, she wished "If only the 4th were here.." this insinuates that he's as strong, if not STRONGER than the Oro in his current state (which is improved since the Hokage election years ago, because of his obsessions.)

So yeah, the 4th was probably stronger. Oro was basically like a teacher's pet to the third. If you had a favorite student, wouldn't you want him to be respected and reverered throughout the village too?

[avmoghe]

memnoch: I've never said strength was the ONLY requirement. I'm saying strength is the PRIMARY requirement after others have been satisfied. You can't deny the fact that the 4th had enough intelligence to become Hokage. You can't deny that Orochimaru had enough intelligence to become Hokage.

What I'm saying that when both parties have the sufficient amount of intelligence required to the STRONGER one will be picked to be Hokage. I'm saying when a it is determined that both parties meet the required criteria.... STRENGTH will be the determining factor in picking the hokage.

Example - Assume intelligence required for hokage level is 100. Person A has intelligence level 120. Person B has intelligence level 200. Person A is stronger than person B.

I'm saying in the above case person A will be picked to be hokage [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

(obviously neither person A or person B should be killing their own people.. and really both must want to be hokage)

So, if Naruto reaches 120 level intelligence and Shikamaru reaches 200 level intelligence.. Naruto will be picked due to his strength.

As far as Oro goes... you're saying the sacrifices that Oro made provided the chakra for Hokage level combat? I really don't buy that. Aside from the fact that the dead bodies should'nt have any chakra of their own... even if they did, they are probably just unimportant genins. No way, thier chakra would be able to perform techniques like the forest thing.
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Hotsumma: See above.. So what if he used Hokages as puppets? It was his own chakra doing the fighting.

1)No way the dead bodies had their own chakra...
2) even if somehow miraculously they preserved thier chakra...do you really think that the pathetic little ninja's he sacrificed would have enough chakra to fight a hokage level battle?

Those two points make be belive that the chakra was the only person's it could've been.. orochimaru's.

I've NEVER said Naruto has above average intelligence. What I AM saying is what I typed above.. ASSUMING Naruto has above average intelligence and Shikamaru haveing Genius level intelligence.. Naruto would be picked to be hokage due to his strength. this was just an analogy.. just look at the person A, person B example above.

Oh and yes, of course Tsunade and Jiraiya are saying it because Naruto has strength. He mastered the Rasengan or whatver technique in a week... that was the PRIMARY reason why tsunade says it. they say he will be the future hokage due to his determination and his strength in doing the impossible... They are not considering his intelligence.
The fourth was powerful ya.. no doubt.. he was the Hokage of course. Just looking at him howver doesn't convince me that 4th would be able to stop Oro's plans.

[lol i wear shirts]

stop trying so hard already you just got dealt

[MemnochTheCaT]

Naruto has NOT mastered the Rasengan, he merely created a creative way of performing it.

Also, I do not buy in any way that strength is the primary requirement for Hokage, on the basis of common sense. The Kages just don't engage in battle very often. We only saw the 3rd fight ONCE. And as far as we know, the 4th only fought one battle as Hokage.

I think Naruto will achieve his goal of becoming Hokage because he will eventually be fit for the role, learning patience and getting smarter (to a point). I see him becoming a bit like Jiraiya as he ages, staying eccentric and keeping his distinct personality, but developing into someone who has enough intelligence and experience to make decent decisions. Naruto will probably never reach the genius intellect of someone like Shikamaru, but it is also clear that Shikamaru will probably never reach the power that Naruto has (too troublesome!).

How do you profess to know that Orochimaru's chakra was powering the summons? It doesn't make any sense, it doesn't work that way for any other summons .. and don't say it's because they are dead, because there were LIVING sacrifices that powered the summons. It's ambiguous as best, certainly nothing to draw certainty on. The only thing you can clearly draw from it is that Oro NEEDED them, because he was too weak to face the 3rd on his own merits, he felt he had to cheat.

Again, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this .. strength is NOT the defining requirement for being Hokage, strength is what the position HAS. If Konohamaru was appointed hokage instead of Tsunade (yeah, I know .. LOL) .. then HE would be the strongest person in Konoha. Not because he can fight anyone, but because he is IN CHARGE, he COMMANDS the village and all of its powers. Fighting is very secondary to the position.

From everything I've seen ... Orochimaru = very cunning and clever, but physically weak in combat .. he relies on tricks, traps, and knowledge of jutsu to survive. The 4th seems to have been a Naruto type, relies on his determination/chakra combined with a few great jutsu to overcome his obstacles.

If you want to insist on simple combat strength as being the primary requirement for Hokage, I just don't know what to tell you, other than that's pretty silly.

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: avmoghe
memnoch: I've never said strength was the ONLY requirement. I'm saying strength is the PRIMARY requirement after others have been satisfied. You can't deny the fact that the 4th had enough intelligence to become Hokage. You can't deny that Orochimaru had enough intelligence to become Hokage.

What I'm saying that when both parties have the sufficient amount of intelligence required to the STRONGER one will be picked to be Hokage. I'm saying when a it is determined that both parties meet the required criteria.... STRENGTH will be the determining factor in picking the hokage.

Example - Assume intelligence required for hokage level is 100. Person A has intelligence level 120. Person B has intelligence level 200. Person A is stronger than person B.

I'm saying in the above case person A will be picked to be hokage [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

(obviously neither person A or person B should be killing their own people.. and really both must want to be hokage)

So, if Naruto reaches 120 level intelligence and Shikamaru reaches 200 level intelligence.. Naruto will be picked due to his strength.

As far as Oro goes... you're saying the sacrifices that Oro made provided the chakra for Hokage level combat? I really don't buy that. Aside from the fact that the dead bodies should'nt have any chakra of their own... even if they did, they are probably just unimportant genins. No way, thier chakra would be able to perform techniques like the forest thing.
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Hotsumma: See above.. So what if he used Hokages as puppets? It was his own chakra doing the fighting.

1)No way the dead bodies had their own chakra...
2) even if somehow miraculously they preserved thier chakra...do you really think that the pathetic little ninja's he sacrificed would have enough chakra to fight a hokage level battle?

Those two points make be belive that the chakra was the only person's it could've been.. orochimaru's.

I've NEVER said Naruto has above average intelligence. What I AM saying is what I typed above.. ASSUMING Naruto has above average intelligence and Shikamaru haveing Genius level intelligence.. Naruto would be picked to be hokage due to his strength. this was just an analogy.. just look at the person A, person B example above.

Oh and yes, of course Tsunade and Jiraiya are saying it because Naruto has strength. He mastered the Rasengan or whatver technique in a week... that was the PRIMARY reason why tsunade says it. they say he will be the future hokage due to his determination and his strength in doing the impossible... They are not considering his intelligence.
The fourth was powerful ya.. no doubt.. he was the Hokage of course. Just looking at him howver doesn't convince me that 4th would be able to stop Oro's plans.

Dude, I've been pretty nice up to now, but now I'm just going to come out and say it. You're a fucking dumbass, a Naruto newbie, and as shallow as a Naruto fan comes. Seriously, that's what the fuck you are.

[hypothetically, using Shikamaru and Naruto as an example] Naruto's strength isn't what's going to make him Hokage. It's his desire and devotion to the clan that makes him Hokage material. How many times do we have to tell you this? Strength isn't everything. It's the ability to lead. Even more important than being physically, intellectually and chakra-wise powerful, is the ability to lead, judge and provide a good example of what's best for your country. And, your putting Naruto (intelligence 120) and Shikamaru (intelligence 200) is inaccurate. There's a FAR greater gap between the two characters in terms of intelligence. Stop trying to expand Naruto's brain, or really lack thereof.

So, you're also saying that Oro has enough chakra to... summon jutsus, control them, AND be able to use incredibly high level jutsus all at once? Dude, you MUST be a fuckin Oro fan. In that case, nothing you say is valid. Sorry to tell you this, but Oro's a pussy. He can't even beat an old man with his plethora of jutsus, extra help and youth.

Jiraiya and Tsunade don't give a damn about Naruto's ability to learn. It's that he managed to use it, DESPITE not being a master to protect his loved ones. THIS is Naruto's Hokage-like quality. To put yourself on the line. Their favoritism towards him has nothing to do with strength.

Rank is not determined by strength. It's determined by many many more things. Strength is important, but saying it's the final deciding factor over everything else isn't accurate, because we've seen this same thing occur, during the Chuunin qualifcations, which only Shika passed.

Now, give up.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Rofl Hotsuma, that was excellently said [img]i/expressions/beer.gif[/img] Btw, reading that with your Osaka avatar just makes me grin .. because for some reason I sort of hear her voice saying all that [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[InnerSakuraChan]

avmoghe - please stop. its been proven that your a compleate idot several times now. if you have any pride, go hide in a corner and NEVER COME OUT!

I'm a noob too, but i like to think that i have enough pride to NOT say stupid things, and to give up when i've been beaten . . . . [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

i don't think that would be much of a fight there. kyubi would claw, stomp, bite, chew and spit out itachi.

that would be nice. that would shut up all you idiot Itachi goupies. (you know who you are). You are almost as bad as (to quote hotsuma) the "kyuubi nut-huggers".

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Rofl Hotsuma, that was excellently said [img]i/expressions/beer.gif[/img] Btw, reading that with your Osaka avatar just makes me grin .. because for some reason I sort of hear her voice saying all that [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

No way man. I'm nowhere near my darling Osaka's intellect.

We should all hope to be as intelligent, witty and focused as she is.

[GokuSonGoku]

When did this topic change from: Ranklist

to best hokage of Naruto and Shika?

[MemnochTheCaT]

Because of the comparison of intellect and reasons for promotion. Read the thread and then you will understand [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Hotsuma]

Because you touch yourself at night.

/Dogma