Ranklist

[originalkrn]

well i wasnt saying that they be hokage right now, i was just comparing them to compare str vs. int with characters that we know... and Shika got lucky cuz in the prelims, where it really wasnt graded, he versed someone he could be on par with in fighting ability. And Lee didnt get chunin cuz guess wat? he couldnt reach the finals because he nearly got killed by Gaara. If Shika had matched up with Lee, Sasuke, Naruto, or Gaara in the prelims, hed be over too and would not have made it to the finals. And the strongest fighter in the village would be the leader because hey... this is a show about ninjas and fighting not about having some government position.

[jing]

no man, shika showed good leadershipskills thats why he was promoted. he didn't get lucky, he fought hard with tactics. He made the correct decisions for giving up. they already said u did not have to win, you just have to show good leadershipskills. and even if you win, you might not even get chosen to be a chunnin if the hokage thinks you're all brute and dumbdumb.
edit:
Thank you cat, you too good valuable points

[MemnochTheCaT]

OriginalKrn : Yeap this is a fictional show .. but without any logic it would disintegrate into meaningless chaos, thankfully it is pretty sensible in its logic overall. There are ranks, responsibilities, risks, rewards .. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] And there are different opinions to share on it .. we just have notably different ones in this case .. no big deal [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

EDIT : Yeap, Jing again with an excellent assessment of Shika's well-deserved Chuunin ranking.

[originalkrn]

Well, Shika got lucky in the prelims, not in the finals. the prelims werent graded... and like i said, if he had gone against someone like Gaara, Sasuke, Naruto, or Lee he would be over before the finals.

and lets say this is a village.. well this is a village about ninjas. Ninjas is the central figure in the entire thing, not about politics. it would be goofy to see Hokages in suits making speeches and debating about politics.. about how they are the most intelligent and the best choice.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Politics are clearly present in Naruto, and being responsible for the entire village requires a great deal of intelligence and experience. How do you expect to keep your people fed, stay out of unneccesary wars (look at the example of the Hyuuga sacrificing a member to help the hokage avoid a war!), make sure the right people are chosen for the right missions, make sure the right people get promoted, etc .. if you aren't aware of politics and have a high intellect to make the right choices. You can't solve everything by trying to beat everyone up... it's not that simple in the real world, and it's not that simple in the fictional world of Naruto. And no, you don't see people debating in suits, because that would be entirely too boring to have an anime about ..

[originalkrn]

Well i think if Tsunade could do it (considering her crazy gambling habits), Naruto can do it sooner or later. They first came to Jirayai too, who was by no argument the strongest nin in Konoha at the time. They came to him almost immediately saying we need a "strong leader". A powerful leader not only is able to protect the village, but gives hope to the people, leaving a sense of comfort.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Yeap the hokage has much to do [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] And I agree, I think Naruto will achieve his goal of becoming hokage someday! Naruto has very good role models to strive after .. Jiraiya, the 3rd, the 4th [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Hotsuma]

Don't whine "he got lucky because he fought easy opponents."

Tsunade and Jiraiya were both considerably respected in Konoha. They were, after all, 2 of the 3 sannin - which is probably just a rank below Kage level in the hierarchy. They both have their bad habits, but they knew they had what it takes. That's all that matters.

[Hotsuma]

Oops@ double post

[InnerSakuraChan]

alrighty -
I've been following this forum for a while, and I can't help but comment
I have to agree w/ memnoch - congrats man - you are always so well spoken.

If leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest. Leaders that are chosen for power alone, or only act with power become your Sadaam Husseins and your Stalins.

However, leaders that chosen For strength and other skills, such as diplomacy, intelligence, and commitment to the betterment of those they govern, are the more successful leaders. They re the ones that choose peace treaties over war, and respect the wishes of neighbor nations.

Naruto is a character who relies on strength. are demonstrated in the battle against garaa, his battle plan generally consists of launching clones of himself at the enemy, and when that fails, attempting to do high level jutsu that he clearly doesn t have the chakra for he reiles on the kyuubi's strength to get through the battle.

Shikamaru, on the other hand, has no hidden reserves of strength, besides his own intelligence. I think that if Naruto would strategize more and conserve his chakra, and plan ahead, he wouldn't have to rely on the kyuubi's strength. Also, when leading missions, you have to consider the other people in the group, not just yourself, this is why Shikamaru deserves to be a chuunin, and Naruto doesn t.

At this point in the series, Shikamaru is probably more hokage-worthy. The only thing that Naruto has over Shikamaru, is that he cares more passionatly about the village, but he uses force to protect it. however, you might argue that Hitler felt passionate about its country., and also used force to better it. now, before you all jump down my back, i am in no way endorsing the actions of Hitler, or even saying that Naruto is in anyway like him in beliefs.

In the future, perhaps, if Naruto learns to strategize, he would be a much better Hokage than Shikamaru, because of his passion.

In summary:
intelligence/strategizing > strength
Shikamaru> Naruto

Just my 2 yen
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Edit: added some puctuation [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Hotsuma]

Originally posted by: InnerSakuraChan
alrighty -
I've been following this forum for a while, and I can't help but comment
I have to agree w/ memnoch - congrats man - you are always so well spoken.

If leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest. Leaders that are chosen for power alone, or only act with power become your Sadaam Husseins and your Stalins.

However, leaders that chosen For strength and other skills, such as diplomacy, intelligence, and commitment to the betterment of those they govern, are the more successful leaders. They re the ones that choose peace treaties over war, and respect the wishes of neighbor nations.

Naruto is a character who relies on strength. are demonstrated in the battle against garaa, his battle plan generally consists of launching clones of himself at the enemy, and when that fails, attempting to do high level jutsu that he clearly doesn t have the chakra for he reiles on the kyuubi's strength to get through the battle.

Shikamaru, on the other hand, has no hidden reserves of strength, besides his own intelligence. I think that if Naruto would strategize more and conserve his chakra, and plan ahead, he wouldn't have to rely on the kyuubi's strength. Also, when leading missions, you have to consider the other people in the group, not just yourself, this is why Shikamaru deserves to be a chuunin, and Naruto doesn t.

At this point in the series, Shikamaru is probably more hokage-worthy. The only thing that Naruto has over Shikamaru, is that he cares more passionatly about the village, but he uses force to protect it. however, you might argue that Hitler felt passionate about its country., and also used force to better it. now, before you all jump down my back, i am in no way endorsing the actions of Hitler, or even saying that Naruto is in anyway like him in beliefs.

In the future, perhaps, if Naruto learns to strategize, he would be a much better Hokage than Shikamaru, because of his passion.

In summary:
intelligence/strategizing > strength
Shikamaru> Naruto

Just my 2 yen
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Edit: added some puctuation [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Amen.

[MemnochTheCaT]

Thanks InnerSakuraChan, that was well said [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[GokuSonGoku]

Originally posted by: MemnochTheCaT
Of course you have to be strong, no one said you didn't. What is at debate is whether you have to be THE strongest fighter to be the leader. Also, even if the 3rd hadn't succeeded in sealing Oro's arms, the village would have found a way to fight off the 3rd. Jiraiya was in the area, and he is certainly no weakling!

No it ain't the debate is about who is strongest.. If you read the TOPIC's TITLE you should know

[jing]

by the way if shika got gaara in the prelims, shika would win
because gaara would stand there, and shika would shadow imitate him. gaara is too cocky to move thats why shika will win. shadow bind him, and make him his bitch.

[Mut]

i'm just adding to what everyone has said... to be hokage, you can't just be the strongest, you have also be very wise, intelligent and be able to run a village/country.

[originalkrn]

Originally posted by: jing
by the way if shika got gaara in the prelims, shika would win
because gaara would stand there, and shika would shadow imitate him. gaara is too cocky to move thats why shika will win. shadow bind him, and make him his bitch.

what can shika do once he has bound Gaara?

[hiten mitsurugi]

You guys are really thinking about the ideal leader of todays time. When you should really be thinking about what it takes to be a leader of a more darwinistic period.

leaders were chosen by pure strength, the Hokage would be some one like Oro or Itachi, because (although this point is arguable) they are two of the most powerful characters in the show. Obviously, Oro and Itachi would not make good leaders, because they are not concerned with the village, rather, they are preoccupied with their own interest.

Yes, someone like Itachi or Oro would be more suitable for hokage.
Oro was kage of the sounds, and a damn good one at that. Itachi could attain that status as well, if he wanted to. Once again seriously, you guys should get your heads out of the clouds, because your describing your ideal leader.

A good example of what would happen to a weak kage would be the Kage of the Sands.

Yes, either Tsunade or Jaraiya would have been selected as Hokage by the third, but they left the village out of their own will.

Strength defines everything, especially in a Darwinistic era. I wish I could show you people first hand, that your stupid ideals go out the freaking window, when your life is at stake.

See I'm one who believes that human beings don't evolve anymore, because of all these laws that protect the weak. Here's an example, healthy wolves stay healthy and ensure that their genes get passed on to new offsprings. A wolf who isn't healthy or old will die off ensuring that only the strongest genes will remain in the new offsprings. Humans aren't like that anymore. Weak humans who breed like rats ensure that even more stupid offsprings arise. Who do you think takes care of those offspring? The penal system or the State. This world is full of the helpless and weak. I pity our species. I also pity people who speak of ideals just because it sounds good, but don't believe a word of it.

[Death BOO Z]

Hiten...
even in medevil times, the general (AKA Leaders of the army) weren't the best soldiers, they were the most comptant strategices and the most relieble persons to get the army to do what he should do.

another thing, let's say that there's a fight in the village, a strong hokage would go there and fight by himself, right? but what happens when there's a war? the hokage can't be everywhere and he can't fight everyone, he needs subordintes to carry on his orders, and he needs to be able to make all millitarry decisions (withdraw, chase, surrender...), and for that he needs to get all the information from the battle field, which means he needs his hands and head clear, to be able to make the right decisions when the time comes.

if the kazekage would have excelled in thinking, maybe he would have found out about Orochimaru's plan to kill him, and then he would have made a secret agreement with the leaf about radicaiting the sound?

Itachi's skills were better used in the ANBU rather than in the hokage's office, the role of hokage would only limit his actions and waste his power.


last thing, human eveolution hasn't eccoured in the last 10000 years, a few generations of kindness to your fellow man won't change anything...

anyway, it's 00:50, so good night, people!

[jing]

Originally posted by: originalkrn

Originally posted by: jing
by the way if shika got gaara in the prelims, shika would win
because gaara would stand there, and shika would shadow imitate him. gaara is too cocky to move thats why shika will win. shadow bind him, and make him his bitch.

what can shika do once he has bound Gaara?

thats easy, take a bomb, and throw it at him. fill his body with explosive tags. remember once gaara is binded, the sand would not function anymore as seen, when Naruto punched gaara in the hospital when he was trying to kill rock lee.

[hiten mitsurugi]

Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
Hiten...
even in medevil times, the general (AKA Leaders of the army) weren't the best soldiers, they were the most comptant strategices and the most relieble persons to get the army to do what he should do.

another thing, let's say that there's a fight in the village, a strong hokage would go there and fight by himself, right? but what happens when there's a war? the hokage can't be everywhere and he can't fight everyone, he needs subordintes to carry on his orders, and he needs to be able to make all millitarry decisions (withdraw, chase, surrender...), and for that he needs to get all the information from the battle field, which means he needs his hands and head clear, to be able to make the right decisions when the time comes.

if the kazekage would have excelled in thinking, maybe he would have found out about Orochimaru's plan to kill him, and then he would have made a secret agreement with the leaf about radicaiting the sound?

The medieval times are a poor example, since there was always a caste system. Born a peaseant died a peasant. They would have never rose to power. People of power were related by blood. However, it is a good example of marrying your cousin.

Of course you need minions to follow your orders. But who's going to follow a weak leader. They'd be like I don't want to go because I'll die. But if your leader's strong and he's fighting right alongside you, your morale is automatically better because you believe in your leader abilities.

Kazekage died because he was weak. That's all there is to it. It wouldn't have mattered if he excelled in thinking. Once you meet someon stronger than yourself. Death is inevitable.