Iraq War

[Swallow Your Soul]

id have to say im pro war. us the uninted states is doing this to show that we will go after anykind of terrorism and retaliate to any kind of acts of war.

Iraq have no links to terrorism at all. There is a huge difference between a tyrant of his own country and a terrorist. Also, Iraq never made an act of war against America. America did.

I gotta say I agree with r3n.

Someone made a comment before about 'whether we like it or not, America is the big super power who can pretty much do what they want' - that is EXACTLY what I'm afraid of...I don't see why they should be able to impose their beliefs on other countries - when the other country didn't do against them...

It is a fact that Iraq did not have, and showed no signs of making any kind of weapons to threaten the west, yes Saddam was a tyrant and did absolutely unspeakable things to his own people, but he knew better than to attack America...and there was no evidence to suggest Iraq could have been plotting anything in terms of attacking America.

A pre-emptive war is totally unjustifiable - you need concrete proof (or at least you are MEANT to have concrete proof) to go to war, the fact America and their bitch (by bitch I refer to my own snivelling country) went to war without offering a solid reason (their reasons also changed many times - they could not get their story straight because it quickly became apparent that there were no WMD in Iraq so they started talking about the the humanity etc). The 'evidence' given by both the UK and the US is so badly edited to suit their purposes of justifying the war that it borders on propaganda rather than evidence The fact that the major superpower is carrying out actions like this is very scary indeed...cross America and get battered...that seems to be the message coming across...

I find it depressing that no-one would ever vote for the Lib Dems over here in Britain...everyone just votes for the Conservatives (right wing) or the Labour Party (currently in power - supposedly left wing but have practically become right wing). I also find it sickening that Blair keeps narrowly getting out of trouble on a lot of his policies (his policies on education are just appalling, though thats another matter).

I also find it very scary that recently one of the major people in the US government said that if someone doesn't comply with the USA Patriot Act then they are not a patriot of their country, even going so far as to call them a 'domestic terrorist' - that is going directly against whatever Amendment it is in your constitution which allows you the right to free speech - as this person (I forget his name) said public debate on the USA Patriot Act is simply not allowed...a lot of people don't even know about this act - I find it terrifying that such a basic right is being denied to the people...whether you agree with the war or not surely people should agree that free speech is something that everyone (no matter on how much you dislike their views) has the right to.

This quote is taken from the 'EEF Analysis of the USA Patriot Act "One new definition of terrorism and three expansions of previous terms also expand the scope of surveillance. They are 1) § 802 definition of "domestic terrorism" (amending 18 USC §2331), which raises concerns about legitimate protest activity resulting in conviction on terrorism charges" - that is basically pointing out that people who are protesting legally can be arrested on suspicion of being terrorists!! How can that be justified? If you want to read any more of the quite worrying stuff this act entails then Click Here

[r3n]

i agree, the american government is cracking down on freedom of speach, id be worried if i lived there.

[itachi_]

The best thing to do.... US should not care about other countries problems, acting like the world-protector, man don't give a damn, that's what I would've done...

[JusDaMan]

THis is out of subject and all but...
From wat i know studying world history...
Hitler is famous for world war 2 and stuff thats y alot of ppl consider him mad evil... but From wat i read before.. this other guy named mao zak dong or something from china. He made hitler look like a kid. that Guy was like "wat boi? u saying i suk?" then see ya in the next life.

I BLAME BUSH FOR THE DOWNFALL OF EVERYTHING!
ALL HAIL CLINTON
ALL HAIL THAT VIETNAM WAR GUY WHOS RUNNING RITE NOW

[SK]

That's the whole point, you don't live here, and you don't know how things are here. As far as you can tell the Bush adminstration is not taking away any of our freedom of speech rights, just because they said it doesnt means its enforced. The way I see it is, the goverment can spy on people as much as they want to ensure safety, and if you dont even know about it, then who cares? 9/11 didnt happen in your country, which is probably why you can have the views you have. My cousins live in Brooklyn, and my aunt's friend was killed in the World Trade Center. Sadaam was a terrorist, and he also applauded Bin Laden for the terror attacks on 9/11. The way I look at it, allowing Sadaam to stay in power means another enemy in the middle east, who wields a lot of power by the fact that he ruled an oil rich country. He killed any who would oppose him, and kept his people poor and in fear of their leader. If your the US why not take out the enemy who got away last time? The US has never been on good terms with Iraq, and by invading Iraq you get oil, a new democratic US backed goverment, and an ally in the middle east. Yes the US is doing this for itself, but by doing this theyre also helping the people in Iraq, while gaining more power in the middle east. I see nothing wrong with extending your world power, especially when your the strongest country in the world.

[itachi_]

Comon, he just want to finnish his dad's work

[SamuraiOdin]

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
That's the whole point, you don't live here, and you don't know how things are here. As far as you can tell the Bush adminstration is not taking away any of our freedom of speech rights, just because they said it doesnt means its enforced. The way I see it is, the goverment can spy on people as much as they want to ensure safety, and if you dont even know about it, then who cares? 9/11 didnt happen in your country, which is probably why you can have the views you have. My cousins live in Brooklyn, and my aunt's friend was killed in the World Trade Center. Sadaam was a terrorist, and he also applauded Bin Laden for the terror attacks on 9/11. The way I look at it, allowing Sadaam to stay in power means another enemy in the middle east, who wields a lot of power by the fact that he ruled an oil rich country. He killed any who would oppose him, and kept his people poor and in fear of their leader. If your the US why not take out the enemy who got away last time? The US has never been on good terms with Iraq, and by invading Iraq you get oil, a new democratic US backed goverment, and an ally in the middle east. Yes the US is doing this for itself, but by doing this theyre also helping the people in Iraq, while gaining more power in the middle east. I see nothing wrong with extending your world power, especially when your the strongest country in the world.

I agree with the above. I mean look, if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the government looks in on you from time to time? By weakening the middle-east, we strengthen ourselves, and in the long run that is what everyone is trying to do.

[Lego]

The best thing to do.... US should not care about other countries problems, acting like the world-protector, man don't give a damn, that's what I would've done...

See, thats the beauty of world opinion itachi. If we stayed out of all the worlds problems, being one of the biggest military forces , people would still bitch. Hell, we didn't step in in haiti or that one african nation, i currently forget the name of that country, and people bitched for us to do so.

We don't give a dam, world goes to shit.

[Assertn]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Swallow Your Soul

It is a fact that Iraq did not have, and showed no signs of making any kind of weapons to threaten the west, yes Saddam was a tyrant and did absolutely unspeakable things to his own people, but he knew better than to attack America...and there was no evidence to suggest Iraq could have been plotting anything in terms of attacking America.

this argument in itself suggests that he wasnt plotting anything against america because he wasnt strong enough to. now....like communism back in the day, countries CAN expand their power and alliances....and they CAN become stronger because of it. If everybody waited until someone became a huge powerful threat, then it would be bad for all of us

r3n, where does freedom of speech come into play? people have anti-bush ads and stuff just the same as that picture you posted......so i find that not only is that irrelevent, but also inaccurate

[Mut]

the us isn't doing anything wrong. we have to act like the daddy of all countries or everything is gonna go to shit. and besides, if we don't keep people in check, everyone will start going ape shit, hurting the us economically. which sucks.

[Lego]

I don't really meddle into politics to much, considering it brings up lengthy debates and such. I consider myself a moderate democrat.

Ive come to realization that no matter what i do, short of blowing myself up inside the white house(yeh , like im gonna do that pfft) that protesting,bitching does nothing.

Hell, i could go stand on the street corner going , OMFG USA AR NAZI! , and no one would care, just honk at me and shout profanity.

What i do feel strongly about, as ive stated before are generalizations. We didn't vote for war, we wern't consulted in this war.

So stop bitching and complaining that the american people are nazi's,war mongers, and blah blah blah.

Instead of focusing so much on us and our buissness, why not go help out Kosovo, after the clashes that have hapened there in the past few months.

[Swallow Your Soul]

Originally posted by: Lego
I don't really meddle into politics to much, considering it brings up lengthy debates and such. I consider myself a moderate democrat.

Ive come to realization that no matter what i do, short of blowing myself up inside the white house(yeh , like im gonna do that pfft) that protesting,bitching does nothing.

Hell, i could go stand on the street corner going , OMFG USA AR NAZI! , and no one would care, just honk at me and shout profanity.

What i do feel strongly about, as ive stated before are generalizations. We didn't vote for war, we wern't consulted in this war.

So stop bitching and complaining that the american people are nazi's,war mongers, and blah blah blah.

Instead of focusing so much on us and our buissness, why not go help out Kosovo, after the clashes that have hapened there in the past few months.

Lego this is a tired argument - you made your point about generalisations twice (at least) and no-one is doing that anymore so be happy [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]...

(just to point out thats the end of the reply to lego)

The freedom of speech argument is valid r3n pointed out is true because the USA Patriot Act (which I posted a link for) says people can be arrested, prosecuted and convicted of terrorism for a mere protest! That is a denial of freedom, and an aspect of totalitarianism. Also, please examine the section on the link I provided which shows the act also involves laws that don't seem to have anything to do with terrorism.

SADDAM IS NOT A TERRORIST! I don't know whether he applauded Bin Laden or not, but Bin Laden hated, and I really do mean HATED Saddam...he went on record several times declaring Saddam his enemy. Also, like I keep saying - a pre-emptive war can not be justified...saying 'before long this might happen' is an appalling and paranoid way of looking at something...why not just bomb the fuck out of everyone then they'll do exactly what the government says?

What makes some people here think that the US government can just push everyone around and make everyone kowtow to their judgement? Iraq posed no threat to America at the time, and there was no evidence to suggest they ever would.

Finally, please stop linking 9/11 to Saddam Hussein - he had nothing to do with it - Bin Laden is responsible like that, so America has every right to get him...I'm very sorry that someone's relative had an aunt killed in 9/11, but that doesn't lend any strength to the argument justifying a war because of 9/11 because that was a completely different situation...your government manipulated 9/11 as an excuse to fill it's people full of fear and to assert more control over the population, and also to invade Iraq. I know 9/11 didn't happen in my country...but that doesn't have anything to do with the war with Iraq.

And yes, protest does have little effect, but its the only thing that can be done in the meantime and it shows people that people oppose it, I just hope when voting time comes more people vote for a better candidate than Bush.

Mut@t@ - the very idea that you are saying America has to keep everyone else in check is very frightening...the fact that America has more power than everyone else does NOT mean they should govern what goes on around the world - do you really believe America is above everyone else just because they have more power?

[Mut]

well shit. if everyone kept them selves in check we wouldn't be needed to do this. you're right the fact that we have more power than everyone doesn't mean that we should govern what goes on in the world. but if we don't, everything will go ape shit and when everything goes ape shit, it eventually hurts us. so we are protecting ourselves and everyone else at the same time. and i never said america is above everyone just cuz we have more power. we use our power in good ways. saddam needed to be taken out so he got taken out. done deal.

i don't wanna talk about this anymore, i hate politics. believe what you want and i will too, but too bad not matter what you or i say won't make a damn difference.

[Vagabond]

nevermind

[Lego]

Heres something to lighten the conversation

[r3n]

agree, agree, and more agree. everything swallow ur soul said is pretty much what i feel. america have this opinion that because they can exert the greatest power in the world they can bully other countries, and act like the judge and jury of the rest of the world. america seems to think it is above its own restrictions it sets down on other countries, such as limiting of nuclear arms (yes america has the largest stock of nuclear arms on the planet). nobody gave america this right, it simply took it on itself. even when NATO objected to america invading iraq, and as i seem to remember, it also pointed out to america that the invasion of iraq was illegal on several counts, primarily because it has no PROOF that iraq had any involvement with 9/11, or no proof that iraq could attack any of america or its allies with WMD. (i wonder how many countries could attack america with the cause that "america could attack it with WMD"....mmm let me think....all of them?)

and when ppl start saying how a friend or relative died in 9/11 out of the couple of thousand of ppl that were killed that day. they seem to forget the hundreds of thousands (no thats not a typo) of innocents that have come in the crossfire of americas so called war on terrorism, along with previous attacks on more than 20 countries which were unprovoked attacks. jst because these ppl arent american citizens doesnt make their lives any less valueble.

and you wonder why so many terrorists attack america. remember, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[SK]

well this is going to be my last post here, as i said before since you arent american i dont think you can understand. the fact that people are sypathizing with those who are killing coalition forces right now baffles me. i'm sorry your anti-america, and believe americans are as bad as nazis, but ill speak the truth now as i did before. i just think its jealousy, its as simple as that. i know you dont want to but accept the fact that america can do whatever the hell it wants until there is a country that can match them. the us went against the UN, which is basically the world, to go to war against iraq and what did they do about it? nothing. why? because they cant.

[Assertn]

if you think about it, wouldnt it be best for everyone to have a unified system of government anyway? there wouldnt be political differences, there could easily be a worldwide market system.....and so forth.....the way things stand now there are conflicts going on all the time among the smaller countries. If iraq was democratic, then the US would do whatever it could to help their economy boom and make everyone there better off, just as we did for alot of the european countries after WW's (and we offered tons of money for those european countries to rebuild the cities and everything that was destroyed, and we didnt even expect them to pay that back either)

there are lots of iraqi civilians who hated the way things were there, some of you who are saying that trying to liberate them is bad is just the conclusion you made as you comfortably sit in your nice couch watching the US changing the lives of those people and probably assuming that everyone's quality of life is as good as yours and that nobody needs change. To say that they should have to put up with the government that saddam ruled just he's not bothering anybody outside of iraq is almost selfish.

[JusDaMan]

My suggestion would be celerbety death match for real. even though Im gonna get flamed for this... I would just wanna watch people duke it out in the ring. they have a dispute, just go to a death match. Its better to kill 1 person than 10000000000 people =). and i wanna see saddam or osama fight bush Lol thats another reason

[Mut]

Originally posted by: -Sharingan-Kakashi-
well this is going to be my last post here, as i said before since you arent american i dont think you can understand. the fact that people are sypathizing with those who are killing coalition forces right now baffles me. i'm sorry your anti-america, and believe americans are as bad as nazis, but ill speak the truth now as i did before. i just think its jealousy, its as simple as that. i know you dont want to but accept the fact that america can do whatever the hell it wants until there is a country that can match them. the us went against the UN, which is basically the world, to go to war against iraq and what did they do about it? nothing. why? because they cant.

hahahhahhha brilliant! w000000000t