Theory about Itachi's eyes

[Elessar]

All quotes originally posted by BakaShinji:

Kakashi can copy (learn the blueprint) and teach it.
-and the transfusion thing is my little blue hope. don't wreck it Elessar!!!

I refuse to believe in a complete blueprint, just some aspects.
And I will wreck it. It will be a great pleasure.

3. Mangekyou
But I still maintain he knows OF, and knows HOW it's done.

Well, the OF is out of question, he was attacked with it. I am quite sure he recognized that 72h of agony.
For the HOW... he has seen it, yes. But I doubt he could see what causes this development of the eye. Quite sure he knows the chakra mixture one needs to perform Tsukijomi, but I doubt out of seeing the development state of the sharingan he can conclude what has to be done to get it to that point.

4. copying Kage Bushin from Naruto
Jiraiya and Orochimaru have not performed Kage Buushin even though it comes in handy. In fact, orochimaru prefers his "kawarimi clay" over the use of buushins altogether.

As Raijin said, Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshins. And in what fight would a shadowclone have come handy to Jiraiya? Against Kisame and Itachi in that small corridor? Or against Orochimaru on top of Gamabunta's head?
And for the earth clone kawarimari, it is a kawarimari not a real clone. A shadowclone would have cost a lot more chakra and provided no advantage in that situation. Orochimaru controlled the fight, he had no need for distraction. The earth thing was wise, a shadowclone in that situation dumb.

Between 4th => Kakashi, Kage buushin was banned. And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process. The scroll isn't just classified. It is forbidden. No one can see it.
kakashi is #1 perhaps. But it does not mean he knows everything. Can all S class criminals perform Kage buushin even though they're in tons of handbooks shared by all countries? No - Orochimaru is a good example.

Not Kage Bunshin was classified, but a scroll with tons of jutsus - kage bunshin being one of them.
And I will continue to use classified, we had that in earlier discussions.
The scroll contains as far as we know a great amount of konohas high level jutsus. Completely not using them would weaken konoha to a large extent. Therefor this scroll is classified - with reaching a certain level and reputation limited and observed access to it is granted or the particular jutsus inside it taught.
The scroll is restricted from public because the jutsus in it are very powerful and access to them should be controlled. Like none of the jounins is angry because the others taught the gates, chidori or rasengan - they just think [now] that the genins aren't ready yet for such powerful jutsus. The main reason why the scroll is classified is - that was our result at that time - that the seal that was used on Naruto is described in it and by studying the sealing jutsu someone could find a way to undo it and unleash the demon fox.
I regard the choice of the word "forbidden" at that point as highly dramatic but with no actual meaning.
Orochimaru - see the one above.

6. Gates from Lee
- It is a last joker. Even Gai made a rule never to perform it unless "protecting someone important."
- Gai knows the gates, but his ability to perform isn't certain - although I feel he probably does know it. He didn't plan on teaching his group the gates, until they could perform the first lotus - which Lee was the only one that accomplished.
- Gai and Kakashi are rivals. Lee and Neji are rivals. Was Lee going to tell Neji about his gates and his "move to defeat" him? No. That would seem to point that Gai wouldn't tell Kakashi either.

First of all, teaching lotus is teaching gates. You didn't know that as you said later in these quotes, so no problem.
I remember Gai saying that he taught his group the lotus but Lee was the only one who could accomplish it. And I remember the image of the team besides these huge logs and only Lee's split in half. Lee has no reason to not tell Neji about the gates, Neji stood next to him when he did the initial lotus. And I refuse that house Hyuuga -- the masters of chakra flow manipulation -- do not know about the gates and their functions. Even if Neji is branch, he is Hinata's bodyguard and of what use is a good-for-nothing bodyguard?

7. Climb the mountain
- focus one's mind would just be a picture of their face .. like:
Sakura does "kai"
Sasuke does "foot concentration to catch Kunai"
Naruto does same to his feet to water walk.

In the manga it is just a picture of Kakashi's face with wide open eyes.

Initial lotus is a forceful way to open gate one? I didn't know that - but I'll check...

It is the primary reason for it. Although destructive itself, that damage is neglectible compared to secondary lotus. And to pave the road to that is the most important effect of it.

Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

He isn't in his prima any more [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] So maybe he needs to concentrate to do what he did with ease some years ago. Requiring an open gate would mean he decreased in a level that he should have a wheelchair by now.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
...And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.

how do you know this?

5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina.

naruto's chakra and kyubi chakra have been mixing for years now. naruto really sucks, he alone cannot create that many kage bunshins.

Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

sorry, this is nothing but an assumption.

8. Water clone
I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.

zabuza says: *while shows kakashi saying "i won't let my comrades die"* at that time... you had already copied my water clone no jutsu... you had your clone say those words... to attract my attention while the real you hid in the mist and watched me."

i think this is implying that kakashi copied zabuza's water clone no jutsu right then and there.

[staind]

don't know if anyone else has posted anything on this yet because i don't feel like reading all the post right now, but whose to say that someone else who has a sharigan who isn't part of the bloodline be able to use the mange technique? It's not like there are a lot of other people out there with substitute sharigans like Kakshi, so how the hell would Itachi know what he's talking about anyway? I think he was just being cocky about his bloodline so he could make himself feel better... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Mut]

Originally posted by: staind
don't know if anyone else has posted anything on this yet because i don't feel like reading all the post right now, but whose to say that someone else who has a sharigan who isn't part of the bloodline be able to use the mange technique? It's not like there are a lot of other people out there with substitute sharigans like Kakshi, so how the hell would Itachi know what he's talking about anyway? I think he was just being cocky about his bloodline so he could make himself feel better... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
itachi: it's impressive that without any uchiha blood relation... you can use the sharingan to that extent... however... your blood isn't like ours... so that eye doesn't suit you...

and he also said:

itachi: however, this is a special eye jutsu; genjutsu "tsukuyomi"...only another sharingan use with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!

kakashi's body might be suited for it sharingan (to some extent), but certainly not his blood.

EDIT: to post below:

you're glad cuz i THINK i have it all figured out and everything? don't make laugh, i KNOW i have it all figured it out. and you say we don't know that if kishimoto has finished the uchiha story or not, and you're right. but until he does so, what i said and others who agreed are correct.

i still can't believe people are still thinking that kakashi learned kage bunshin from naruto. i'm even more surprised by the fact that you people are able to get up in the morning and brush your teeth without choking and gagging yourselves to death.

[staind]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: staind
don't know if anyone else has posted anything on this yet because i don't feel like reading all the post right now, but whose to say that someone else who has a sharigan who isn't part of the bloodline be able to use the mange technique? It's not like there are a lot of other people out there with substitute sharigans like Kakshi, so how the hell would Itachi know what he's talking about anyway? I think he was just being cocky about his bloodline so he could make himself feel better... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
itachi: it's impressive that without any uchiha blood relation... you can use the sharingan to that extent... however... your blood isn't like ours... so that eye doesn't suit you...

and he also said:

itachi: however, this is a special eye jutsu; genjutsu "tsukuyomi"...only another sharingan use with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!

kakashi's body might be suited for it sharingan (to some extent), but certainly not his blood.

i'm glad you think you have it all figured out and everything... lol, i'm just throwing out ideas, for one, we don't even know what Kamishimoto is thinking or has even finished the story about the Uchiha bloodline, so there will always be a possibility for anything to happen to Kakashi, once again, it's just a theory....

and to help back up BakaShinji about Naruto and his KageBunshin and other ninjas knowing about it... just remember that technique was inside of a secret scrole, the only other people we've seen use it so far was the 3rd, and Kakashi AFTER he saw Naruto use it.

[Elessar]

Sorry staind, but if you do not feel like reading what was discussed so far then please feel like not saying anything at all too.
It is a pure pain in the ass to have ppl coming up after some pages of discussion bringing back already dicussed aspects or aspects that are discussed right at the moment starting at zero again.

We do not discuss here for nothing, read it before you participate. That's a question of manners, something you seem to lack.

[Death BOO Z]

here's some foor for the mind about the mengekyou sharingan...

the mengekyou sharingan is powered by the Uchiha Blood as well as the sharingan, right?
so Kakashi can see and copy what invloves the Sharingan, but not what involves the blood, do you agree? doesn't that mean Kakashi would be able, at best, to teach Sasuke only half of the move?

i'll use an example, let's say Kakashi and Haku.
Kakashi could copy the one-handed seals that Haku did for his water jutsu, but not the the blood activition, so when he'd try the jutsu, he'll end up only using the hand seals, since the blood activiation is invisible to him. and since he doesn't know that, the only knowledge he'll be able to pass on is the hand seals, which are useless by themselves...

i hope i was clear on that...

about the scroll, Kagebunshin is a rather common skill (seeing how most of the genins and chunins know about it), my guess is that the scroll was sealed immidiatly after the kyubi incident, to prevent a chance of someone restoring the Kyubi with the unsealing jutsu. however, i think the scroll, when it was wrriten, was merely a 'dictionary' of jutsus the 4th knew to use, but since it contained the Kyubi unsealing mode, the entire scroll was forbidden. i mean, we were told that the SCROLL itself is forbidden, but it was never stated that the Kage Bunshin was forbidden, while other jutsus (the lotus, or the gates, and Edo tensai) were classified as KINJUTSU...

besides, what kind of teacher would Kakashi be if he had to COPY from his students?

[Elessar]

Death BOO Z, I agree on both issues.

That's what I wanted to say about knowing parts of Tsukijomi but not how to get the sharingan to the mangekyou state, the blood lineage and their effects on has to be born into to fully understand, in a short and clear example.
Same applies to the scroll.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: ...And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.
Mutatata: how do you know this?

ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: 5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina. Mutata: naruto's chakra and kyubi chakra have been mixing for years now. naruto really sucks, he alone cannot create that many kage bunshins.

He CAN create many kage bushins. Forest of death against the 3 (edit: rain) nins? Orochimaru had sealed kyuubi's mixing seal.

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.
Mutata: sorry, this is nothing but an assumption.

My assumption at least has my line of reasoning. What is your assumption? And what is your line of reasoning?

8. Water clone
Baka: I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.
Mutatata: zabuza says: *while shows kakashi saying "i won't let my comrades die"* at that time... you had already copied my water clone no jutsu... you had your clone say those words... to attract my attention while the real you hid in the mist and watched me."
i think this is implying that kakashi copied zabuza's water clone no jutsu right then and there.

Sorry, I was talking about the waterblast ultimate technique. I was merely titling it after Elessar's format. You should have picked that up when I said Kakashi used Genjutsu in combo with the technique, since he didn't genjutsu when he copied the clone. But maybe you didn't. That's ok, mis-titling by me.

edit: BTW. this supports the point that Kakashi is indeed actively copying techniques, no matter how apparently weak the technique is (mizu vs kage), or who is doing it (naruto/lee). If he had already known Kage Buushin, why would he copy the lowly Mizu buushin, which only has 1/10 of the original user's power? /edit

Response to Elessar:
"Lee has no reason to not tell Neji about the gates, Neji stood next to him when he did the initial lotus."
He said it right before his final lotus on Gaara... "Neji, this was a move I was saving to defeat you - but I'm going to show it to you nonetheless." Who cares if Neji knew or not? Lee is working under a Theory of Mind assumption. He doesn't know that Neji knows, and it doesn't matter if he did. Lee wanted to save it as a secret finishing move on Neji.

"In the manga it is just a picture of Kakashi's face with wide open eyes." (about the cliffhanging)
Exactly part of my point that Kishimoto intends the audience to believe Kakashi is copying these jutsu's. They changed to showing Kakashi activating something in his brain. He fixed it up in the anime to instill clarity, but by the looks of this forum it is not.

On a similiar note: The change from Orochimaru's Kagebuushin from the Manga to Kawarimi in the Anime is also a purposeful move by the animators. ("As Raijin said, Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshins [in the manga. if you read my post it changed to kawarimi in the anime].")

and to add to that: The added scene with Kakashi watching Naruto pull off his first Kage Buushin in Kakashi's presence was another change from manga to anime.

summ of these points: Is no one seeing the obvious production changes?

"Requiring an open gate would mean he decreased in a level that he should have a wheelchair by now."
He's never opened a gate before. He used it for the first time on that cliff. That is why it required the effort.

and to Elessar: Could you explain difference between Tsukiyomi and Mange. I was under the impression it was merely different names for the same thing.

For Death BOOZ:
First points kudos. I agree.
Last point about Kage Buushin I disagree. No Gennins know about it save Naruto. No Chuunins know about it PERIOD. The only Jounin that knows about it is Hayate (from official jump statswhore magazine) and Ebisu. Not everyone knows about it, and there have been even attempts by the writers to reduce the number of people that know this jutsu. (i.e. Orochimaru's buushin got nerfed to a kawarimi.)

[Elessar]

Itachi says something like:
"I will show you why we are the most feared clan *mumble* my mangekyou sharingan *mumble* my tsukiyomi is the ultimate genjutsu."

So Tsukijomi is a jutsu. Following Tsukijomi will become Amaterasu, Amaterasu will be another jutsu. And they are possible because of his Mangekyou Sharingan. So that isn't a jutsu, more like a state in which the sharingan is.

First Sasuke had increased capabilities in keeping up with Haku's speed (one dot stage), later he could copy Lee's movement (two dots stage). By the time he will get to level Kakashi is at were he can create the copy illusion etc in real time (three dots stage). Itachi can do more, he can use the two above mentioned jutsus (Mangekyou state).

So "Mangekyou Sharingan" is the name for his level of sharingan mastery. I think it is safe to believe that that is the highest sharingan level, the one of a sharingan master. Tsukijomi is the name of a jutsu he is able to perform because he mastered his sharingan up to the "Mangekyou" level.

Hope that was somewhat understandable.

[raijin]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
For Death BOOZ:
First points kudos. I agree.
Last point about Kage Buushin I disagree. No Gennins know about it save Naruto. No Chuunins know about it PERIOD. The only Jounin that knows about it is Hayate (from official jump statswhore magazine) and Ebisu. Not everyone knows about it, and there have been even attempts by the writers to reduce the number of people that know this jutsu. (i.e. Orochimaru's buushin got nerfed to a kawarimi.)

Actually, Itachi uses Kage Bunshin as well, but it seems he has modified it so that the clones are capable of exploding.

[BakaShinji]

Oooh i c. So Mange is a state of his eyes due to physical development. And Tsukiyomi is the jutsu supposedly arising from this state.

OK i c.. Now swap everything I've said about Mange to Tsukiyomi.... does anyone have any problems now?

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Elessar
By the time he will get to level Kakashi is at were he can create the copy illusion etc in real time.

what's that?

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.

god, you are so stuuupid. how the fuck does that prove anything??? you're just claiming that kakashi got the eye after itachi kills his clan? what the fuck? this is like when itachi_ (the banned member) said that kakashi got his eye from obito who is itachi's (the character's) dad or something equally retarded like that.

He CAN create many kage bushins. Forest of death against the 3 (edit: rain) nins? Orochimaru had sealed kyuubi's mixing seal.

the kyubi chakra had already been mixing since for years before that.

My assumption at least has my line of reasoning. What is your assumption? And what is your line of reasoning?

i'm not assuming anything, buddy. i'm just telling you that what you are saying isn't fact, just opinion, yet you keep ignoring what i'm trying to get across to you.

edit: BTW. this supports the point that Kakashi is indeed actively copying techniques, no matter how apparently weak the technique is (mizu vs kage), or who is doing it (naruto/lee). If he had already known Kage Buushin, why would he copy the lowly Mizu buushin, which only has 1/10 of the original user's power? /edit

this still doesn't prove anything. yeah, it says that kakashi likes to copy stuff, but it doesn't say when exactly he does it. therefore, one can only assume, as you have been doing the whole time.

The change from Orochimaru's Kagebuushin from the Manga to Kawarimi in the Anime is also a purposeful move by the animators.

this must be correct since you are on the animation team. gotcha.

and i'm not gonna bother replying to the rest of the post. sorry to be really harsh, but it's all garbage. you're still saying things as if they are facts when they're really not.

[Assertn]

orochimaru used kage bunshin in the manga?

[BakaShinji]

Ok Dazzz/Mut@t@.

In this thread:

You have given no constructive arguments only destructive ones.
You give no personal opinions and yet only taken the time to attack other's opinions.
[edit] You have never admitted that you're wrong; you just covering you tracks by freely re-editing your posts. [/edit]
Your favorite word is "assume" "assumption" or some word with ass in it. You just enjoy plastering on this word to anything that remotely requires any inferencement or brain power.

Here are things that you've said that are just stupid in the last thread alone:

"the kyubi chakra had already been mixing since for years before that."
Ok, so you're saying Naruto's pretty blue chakra is not his own but Kyuubi's?
WHAT THE HELL WAS JIRAIYA DOING TEACHING NARUTO TO USE THE RED ONE??

"this still doesn't prove anything. yeah, it says that kakashi likes to copy stuff, but it doesn't say when exactly he does it. therefore, one can only assume as you've been doing this whole time"
I thought that was the idea of a discussion? To create theories and make arguments. So what's your opinion? Once again you do not have one.

"this must be correct since you are on the animation team. gotcha."
Ok, if this is not it, please provide a better explanation as to why YOU think they redid the scenes. I invite you to assume/theorize all you want, you have done very little of this type of higher order thinking thus far.

"you're still saying things as if they are facts when they're really not."
Do you want a disclaimer? Should all posts have a leading disclaimer... "THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT XXX IS TYPING AND ENTIRELY HIS/HER OWN OPINION. PLEASE DO NOT BE CONFUSED WITH FACT, SINCE WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE TRUE FACT IS" This is a discussion thread, get over it. I say what I believe is true, and I do not purport them as fact. Besides semantic or mathematical constructs, there is no fact.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
orochimaru used kage bunshin in the manga?

yes, weird isn't it? someone posted a pic from a chinese manga. And i just read Troy's version - both say Kage buushin.

[Gods_Son]

At this point the argument between you and Mut@t@ really isn't getting anywhere, I don't see a point for either of you to continue trying to prove your point to the other. And yea, kage bunshin doesn't really suit Orochimaru in my opinion.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.

god, you are so stuuupid. how the fuck does that prove anything??? you're just claiming that kakashi got the eye after itachi kills his clan? what the fuck? this is like when itachi_ (the banned member) said that kakashi got his eye from obito who is itachi's (the character's) dad or something equally retarded like that..

Ok, maybe these series of events will explain.

3rd Hokage picks the 4th
Orochimaru leaves village in contempt (Kakashi still has normal eyes, from Oro's future statement)
Jutsus are forbidden
4th dies
Naruto Sasuke are 7/8 years old and Uchiha clan is obliterated
___________
Orochimaru meets Kakashi and expresses envy over his new found eye.

Ok, now stick "Kakashi gets new eye" in the best place up there in that list. A suggested answer is underlined. Does it fit there?

There is a reason, Mutt, that the leading theory about Kakashi's eye is surrounded by the eventful ending of the Uchiha clan.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
[edit] You have never admitted that you're wrong; you just covering you tracks by freely re-editing your posts. [/edit]
Your favorite word is "assume" "assumption" or some word with ass in it. You just enjoy plastering on this word to anything that remotely requires any inferencement or brain power.

what the fucK? i cover my tracks by freely re-editing my posts? you're stupid, man. since when was the EDIT feature a clear indication for "covering tracks". did you bother to think that there was a quoting error and i needed to fix it? of course not. you're the only person here who doesn't see that what you're saying is nothing but ASSUMPTIONS. i don't know how much more i have to explain this, just RE-READ what i have posted before.

Here are things that you've said that are just stupid in the last thread alone:

"the kyubi chakra had already been mixing since for years before that."
Ok, so you're saying Naruto's pretty blue chakra is not his own but Kyuubi's?
WHAT THE HELL WAS JIRAIYA DOING TEACHING NARUTO TO USE THE RED ONE??

obviously, there still were two different types of chakra; naruto's and kyubi's. but that doesn't mean naruto was able to use it properly even though, the two chakra were gradually getting mixed together.

"this still doesn't prove anything. yeah, it says that kakashi likes to copy stuff, but it doesn't say when exactly he does it. therefore, one can only assume as you've been doing this whole time"
I thought that was the idea of a discussion? To create theories and make arguments. So what's your opinion? Once again you do not have one.

you're an idiot. all i've been saying is "WHY DO YOU KEEP ACTING AS IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS FACT WHEN IT'S REALLY NOT" but you still can't realize it. i really wonder why.

"this must be correct since you are on the animation team. gotcha."
Ok, if this is not it, please provide a better explanation as to why YOU think they redid the scenes. I invite you to assume/theorize all you want, you have done very little of this type of higher order thinking thus far.

i don't fucking know. i wish i had the actual anime to watch it over again, but i can't. i only have the manga to deal with. maybe the producers wanted to re do the scene cuz they thought it would be cooler, i don't fucking know. why don't you send them a letter.

"you're still saying things as if they are facts when they're really not."
Do you want a disclaimer? Should all posts have a leading disclaimer... "THE FOLLOWING IS WHAT XXX IS TYPING AND ENTIRELY HIS/HER OWN OPINION. PLEASE DO NOT BE CONFUSED WITH FACT, SINCE WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE TRUE FACT IS" This is a discussion thread, get over it. I say what I believe is true, and I do not purport them as fact. Besides semantic or mathematical constructs, there is no fact.

then why don't you change the way you post things? i ask you about proof and you present me some random garbage trying to support your 'thoughts' trying to pass it on as facts. stop.

EDIT:

Ok, maybe these series of events will explain.

3rd Hokage picks the 4th
Orochimaru leaves village in contempt (Kakashi still has normal eyes, from Oro's future statement)
Jutsus are forbidden
4th dies
Naruto Sasuke are 7/8 years old and Uchiha clan is obliterated
___________
Orochimaru meets Kakashi and expresses envy over his new found eye.

Ok, now stick "Kakashi gets new eye" in the best place up there in that list. A suggested answer is underlined. Does it fit there?

yeah, it fits there, but did you ever think that "kakashi gets new eye" could be placed IMMEDIATELY after orochimaru leaves village? or anywhere after that? probably not from the way you think, baka. there are so many differenct scenarios that i can't think of all of them right now, my thoughts are cluttered. maybe, i'll post some later.