i've been wandering about the fight between kakashi and itachi... something is kind of bothering me.
Since kakashi was using his sharigan against itachi, i wonder if he could have copied the mange sharigan, even though he might not be able to use it correctly, would he still be abel to teach it to sasuke?
That would give sasuke a big jump in skill and might help him catch up to itachi faster.
I really shouldn't dignify that one with an answer...
but still, here ya go.
the mengekyou sharingan is a movement done by the pupil alone, there aren't any seals involved, so i doubt that he'd be able to do it...
secondly, Kakashi was hit by that genjutsu, i don't think that in his 72 hours of torture he was really intersted in how it was done to him, exactly how Sasuke wasn't intersted in how the Lotus is done after the kick hit him...
so to make things short, NO.
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that would be fricken awesome!!!Originally posted by: staind
i've been wandering about the fight between kakashi and itachi... something is kind of bothering me.
Since kakashi was using his sharigan against itachi, i wonder if he could have copied the mange sharigan, even though he might not be able to use it correctly, would he still be abel to teach it to sasuke?
That would give sasuke a big jump in skill and might help him catch up to itachi faster.
Kakashi copying the mange sharingan!
I think this is very possible as why would Kakashi face Itachi knowing that he'd get pwned by this technique... it's cuz he's the COPY CAT MASTER - AND HE WANTS TO COPY IT! Remember how Itachi wanted to retreat before Kakashi copied their moves?? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Yea i remember. So Kakashi went through the 72 hours of pain to learn this awesome shit! I'm going apeshit here! LIke you don't understand!
As for the hand seal thing, my theory is that there doesn't need to be a hand seal done. I think it's just a false rumor that Kakashi's letting people believe for his own protection. He did copy Rock's Gate opening *hint hint*.
But the problem now is - Kakashi isn't of "true sharingan blood." Whatever that means. But he CAN teach this to Sasuke ... perhaps. Or he can use a weakened version of it - maybe if he gets a transfusion done through Sasuke's corpse after Naruto beats the pulp out of him. We all know how much Kakashi loves scrapping Uchiha parts... @.@;
I'm just running with staind's idea here =). Someone prove me wrong.
As Death Boo Z mentioned, the Mangekyou Sharingan is a physical pupil ability and not a technique/jutsu. It's most likely the true manifestation of the Sharingan at its full potential, considering Itachi is said to be a Sharingan master. Kakashi can't copy physical traits, let alone another person's Advanced Bloodline technique. As Itachi mentions, Kakashi is not of the Uchiha Bloodline and can't use the Sharingan to its full potential... hence the reason he's exhausted after using it in his first encounter with Zabuza.
I'll reiterate it again, the Mangekyou Sharingan is most likely an advanced form of the Sharingan and not a technique which can be copied. Since, Sasuke is of the Uchiha Bloodline, he has the potential to use it as well.
Ok, we know sharingan CAN copy Taijutsu (Sasuke on Lee)
"[mange] is a physical pupil ability and not a technique/jutsu..." - quoted from raijin
last time i looked it up ... ability~technique.
last time i looked it up ... physical~taijutsu. (~ means roughly equivalent to)
Note now..., Sharingan copies everything - not just taijutsu.
Naruto's Kage Bushin = Ninjutsu.
Zabuza pwnage = Genjutsu.
Rock Lee opening gates inside his body... i don't know what to call that (Uberjutsu?).
Now explain how an external spinning of the pupils can go unnoticed by Kakashi compared to Rock Lee's internal gate opening?
So questions about this "physical pupil ability"
Is this "physical" spinning different from taijutsu?
Even if it is different from Taijutsu - if it can be classified into any normal Gen/Nin/Tai, Kakashi can copy it. And by copy, I mean learn how it is done (not necessarily execute it, as I've stated in my unedited previous post).
If it isn't one of the three normal gen/nin/tai, Kakashi DID copy Lee's "uberjutsu" of the Gates - so what makes Mange special? Both are physical abilities - there is no mystical non-natural explanation.
Edit: About "advanced-bloodline" techniques... although this may be true that Kakashi can't perform the jutsu, he still can copy it - this possibility isn't ruled out by the "bloodline" limitations. Also Kakashi does have blood suitable for Uchiha's eyes, so it wouldn't be farfetched to say that Mange might be accessible by him as well.
This makes sense to me by the fact Kakashi dared to face this technique knowing its effects. He must have had a motive. He isn't stupid.
....guys, chill out, i know he can't copy blood lines technieques, i'm just saying kakashi knows how it's done now, so he might be able to show sasuke... not that hard to understand? is it? Last time i checked, they did call him the 'copy-cat' ninja.... so he must be good at analyzing shit and understanding techniques even without the sharigan.
EDIT: thanks BakaShinji, i think you understood everything i was trying to say. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
The Mangekyou Sharingan is possibly a physical eye/pupil changing ability. With the Sharingan, Kakashi can't physically change his body. For example, if a person has green eyes, Kakashi can't make his eyes turn green with the Sharingan.
Taijutsu is basicaly the movement of your body, hence the reason why the Sharingan can copy it... it's not a "physical" change of the body, just movement. And if you remember, Kakashi mentions that he can't copy Advanced Bloodline Techniques during his fight with Zabuza. And I'll say it again, Kakashi is not of the Uchiha Bloodline, and probably can't use the Mangekyou Sharingan.
Glad you stopped trying to defend Mange by saying it's taijutsu - if so the argument would have been over =).
"[mange] is possibly a physical eye/pupil changing ability" - raijin
This is conjecture. Are you saying it's like kimimaro's bone morphing ability? Or Haku's Demonic Ice ability? If it is - then it would make no sense that it does psychological harm (like it did to kakashi). All bloodline limits we have seen do physical harm.
Because of this key difference (psychological vs physical harm), I say mange's genjutsu - and I'm sure most people would agree. I'm going to regret saying this, but Ino's mind attack is similiar to Mange; except it's much feebler and way way way way weeker.. (don't kill me Itachi freaks!). Ino's ability is genjutsu so it would naturally follow that mange's genjutsu.
"Kakashi mentions that he can't copy Advanced Bloodline Techniques during his fight with Zabuza" - raijin
I thought Zabuza said that to Kakashi? Well, we know Kakashi likes to play down his abilities. (i.e. the need to see hand seals for techniques - he copy's Rock's gates).
So yea, just to make sure we're on the same page - this is what I'm saying.
Kakashi, being of "suitable blood" for Uchiha eyes, copied the method of using Mange Sharingan - although his ability to use this learned technique is yet to be determined.
-leading evidence for this:
1. Itachi said to Kisami his fear of having their jutsu's copied by Kakashi
2. Kakashi actually facing mange knowing the effects of it
Someone bring some counters for these points please =).
if itachi knows that kakashi can copy jutsus......then why would he reveal one of his most advanced jutsus to him? obviously itachi would know more about the sharingan than anyone else to know whether or not it would be a good idea to use it on another sharingan user
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Well, first off, I never said the Mangekyou Sharingan was taijutsu or even compared it to taijutsu.Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Glad you stopped trying to defend Mange by saying it's taijutsu - if so the argument would have been over =).
"[mange] is possibly a physical eye/pupil changing ability" - raijin
This is conjecture. Are you saying it's like kimimaro's bone morphing ability? Or Haku's Demonic Ice ability? If it is - then it would make no sense that it does psychological harm (like it did to kakashi). All bloodline limits we have seen do physical harm.
Because of this key difference (psychological vs physical harm), I say mange's genjutsu - and I'm sure most people would agree. I'm going to regret saying this, but Ino's mind attack is similiar to Mange; except it's much feebler and way way way way weeker.. (don't kill me Itachi freaks!). Ino's ability is genjutsu so it would naturally follow that mange's genjutsu.
"Kakashi mentions that he can't copy Advanced Bloodline Techniques during his fight with Zabuza" - raijin
I thought Zabuza said that to Kakashi? Well, we know Kakashi likes to play down his abilities. (i.e. the need to see hand seals for techniques - he copy's Rock's gates).
So yea, just to make sure we're on the same page - this is what I'm saying.
Kakashi, being of "suitable blood" for Uchiha eyes, copied the method of using Mange Sharingan - although his ability to use this learned technique is yet to be determined.
-leading evidence for this:
1. Itachi said to Kisami his fear of having their jutsu's copied by Kakashi
2. Kakashi actually facing mange knowing the effects of it
Someone bring some counters for these points please =).
It seems with the Mangekyou Sharingan, Itachi is capable of using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. They're techniques that he is capable of using with the special eye. And, Ino's technique is a ninjutsu, not genjutsu. She's projecting actual spiritual energy at an opponent, she's not making an illusion.
Reread or watch the Zabuza and Kakashi fight, Kakashi does mention that he can't copy Haku's Demonic Ice Mirrors.
As far as I remember, Kisame and Itachi never have a conversation concerning Kakashi copying their abilities. Kisame is surpised that Kakashi copied his technique and can use water clones, but that's it.
The only reason I believe Kakashi faced the Mangekyou Sharingan is that he believed he had a chance to withstand the technique. Itachi does mention that only a person with the Sharingan can withstand or defeat his genjutsu attack, so Kakashi most likely took a chance. If all three (Kakashi, Kurenai & Asuma) of them closed their eyes, they would have been sitting ducks. It appears that Gai is the only person to effectively fight against a person with the Sharingan by looking at their feet.
there isn't anything more to explain. kakashi cannot perform the mangekyou sharingan cuz he is not of uchiha blood. simple and done.
EDIT:
facts plz.Originally posted by: BakaShinji
So we know Kakashi has similar blood.
First point. Itachi was arrogant about "Being a true Sharingan Master" and saw Kakashi as a lowly wannabe, even with his similiar blood. So he was arrogant to use his ultimate ability.
So we know Kakashi has similar blood.
We only know that if you have Uchiha blood you can perform it. It doesn't rule out having "suitable blood".
It also says nothing about copying it.
There is a difference between - Performing and Copying (learning).
btw on a sidenote: DID anyone think Sasuke copied it, seeing how Itachi used it on him? haha - I completely overlooked this
It's not arrogant if it's the truth. And considering how easily he defeated Kakashi and Sasuke with his Sharingan, he further proves that point. Itachi mentions to Kisame that he didn't want to cause a commotion which would attract attention. If you want to win a battle quickly, you're not going to use mediocre techniques which the enemy is capable of countering or defeating, you're going to use something that an opponent has little or no chance against.
And for you statement concerning Kakashi copying Rock Lee opening the gates, this is just pure speculation. Considering Kakashi's knowledge of the 8 Gates, he probably already knew how to use them prior to the Lee and Gaara match. It seems the only reason he unveiled the Sharingan was to keep up with Lee's speed.
not pure speculation.Originally posted by: raijin
And for you statement concerning Kakashi copying Rock Lee opening the gates, this is just pure speculation. Considering Kakashi's knowledge of the 8 Gates, he probably already knew how to use them prior to the Lee and Gaara match. It seems the only reason he unveiled the Sharingan was to keep up with Lee's speed.
kakashi uses kage bushin after he sees naruto do it, on the bridge.
kakashi uses his gates after he sees rock lee do it while rock climbing.
kakashi will use mange sharingan to rip itachi a new one (i believe oro gave kakashi the scar but itachi is my #2 man... *this is another argument).
Funny how you ignore the part where Itachi talks about his fear of Kakashi copying all his jutsus...Originally posted by: raijin
Itachi mentions to Kisame that he didn't want to cause a commotion which would attract attention.
No. Not true. This is contrary to the entire Naruto series foolish foolish man. Every battle we have seen has been built up from the most rudimentary skills: curse seal levels, summons, berserkers.Originally posted by: raijin
If you want to win a battle quickly, you're not going to use mediocre techniques which the enemy is capable of countering or defeating, you're going to use something that an opponent has little or no chance against.
C'mon how fucking boring would Naruto be if
Hokage went ... "guess what oro, we're skipping the entertaining playing around, I'm ending this with Fuujin right now."
or
Kakashi went "f-u Zabuza, eat raikiri NOW"
or
Naruto went "grurururur .... nine-tails .. gururururu" (ok kage bushin's suck, maybe Naruto should do this).
or
Sasuke went "Chidori in yo face mutha fucka Gaaraaaa..."
or
Haku went "ice mirrors and end this shit."
or
"Favorite sound nin" - "lvl 2 seal weeeeeee..."
and this list goes on and on...
Edit: OK enough mudslinging... so back to the task at hand
Kakashi copied Mange. We yet to see him perform it. (and now I'm thinking Sasuke probably too). Itachi got arrogant with his ability, and busted it out on Kakashi because he didn't think Kakashi will be able to do it. I might be spoiling some really awesome Kishimoto storyline - but I'm calling it right now - KAKASHI WILL MANGE SOMEONE!!!
from what I remember Itachi "Your blood is suitable for that eye."Originally posted by: Mut@t@
EDIT:
facts plz.Originally posted by: BakaShinji
So we know Kakashi has similar blood.
then he goes off "let me show you the ability of [arrogance] the true sharingan masters [/arrogance]"
my memory may be off. someone wanna check?
Itachi used the Mange Sharingan to show Kakashi the Sharingan's true abilities. Kakashi may be suitable for the Sharingan, but he cannot inherit the full abilities of the bloodline with the eye alone. You cannot copy a jutsu that's beyond your level. Sasuke doesn't have a fully developed Sharingan and Kakashi isn't a true Uchiha, neither of them can perform the technique as of now.
v no, I read the same version as you v
i might have a different version than you guys. mine says:
itachi: it's impressive that without any uchiha blood relation... you can use the sharingan to that extent... however... your blood isn't like ours... so that eye doesn't suit you...
and he also said:
itachi: however, this is a special eye jutsu; genjutsu "tsukuyomi"...only another sharingan use with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!
kakashi's body might be suited for it sharingan (to some extent), but certainly not his blood.
baka, plz don't double post.
How do you know that Kakashi did not know how to use Kage Bunshin before Naruto? Kage Bunshin is a Jounin Level skill, Kakashi most likely learned it before Naruto did. Hayate does Kage Bunshin during his "Dance of the Crescent Moon" and he's a Special Jounin.
So what if Kakashi used the Gate(s) after Rock Lee? That doesn't prove anything. Kakashi is not a jounin for nothing, like I mentioned before, he probably knew how to perform the Gate techniques prior to watching Lee. Whether or not he can actually copy "Gate Opening" is still questionable.
I already addressed this statement in a previous post, and as far as I know, this was never stated. Provide the chapter and page # and I'll check.Funny how you ignore the part where Itachi talks about his fear of Kakashi copying all his jutsus...
All the fights you mentioned involved high class techniques.
If you want to believe that Kakashi copied Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan go ahead, I'm just presenting my side of the arguement. But, as far as I'm concerned, he didn't.
ok some of you guys actually have brains but some of you are just idiots. I dont know where you pull some of this crap out from....kakashi actually needing lee or naruto to copy jitsus from. Kakashi was pimp before those two were itches in their daddies pants. Now listen up and listen good, i never want to hear this bull again. Kakashi knew about gates before he saw lee do them...he explained all about them to sakura and everyone else was there....do you guys forget that kakashi and Gai have faught like a bijillion times...do you not think he saw this from him or from some one else. Kakashi has been everwhere before this series we know so little about him. Almost every jounin knows kage bushin no jitsu...naruto is jsut lucky he learned it. I cant believe you guys think kakashi learned these techniques from those two kids. Kakashi was one of the best ninja that every lived, he knows tons of crap. Kakashi knows how to do gates long before lee...and he did not learn it from him. on the cliff he did not open a gate, i want to slap who ever was the first person to say that. He focoused chakra and gave himself a boost...the first gate gives way more then just a boost. Do you realyl think the pimpist ninja really had to copy kage bushin from naruto!?!??!?!?! And lastly it did not matter if kakashi did copy the mange shiringan from itachi because he cant use it...he does not have uchida blood that is why he cant shut shiringan off. He cant fully control it, only the true bloodline can do it...and dont give me similar blood crap he does not have the blood he needs to do it. Kakashi can copy genjitsu...itachi was arrogant in showing him because he knows even he kakashi copyed it he could not use it do to his lack of uchida blood. But if you understand what really happened there you would get it, kakashi knows he never had a chance against the true sharingan. He had a purpose in goind through the pain for 72 hours. he copied it for saske. Not so he could just teach it to him, but use it as a form of control. He knows saske is constantly tempted to seak power. The only way he can keep saske under control and away from evil would be to intice him with something. There is no easy way out in anything, he knows the curse seal will just lead saske down a dark path. He sacrificed himself so he could teach saske later, unfortunatly saske is weakminded and ran off....this will all come about later....i hope i cleared everything up.
lol wow. 4th post and i already like this guy.
you get TWO thumbs up! *WINK* [img]i/expressions/beer.gif[/img]
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