Theory about Itachi's eyes

[lasaire]

I have a theory about Itachi. First, some background.

Tsukiyomi is the name of the attack Itachi uses on Kakashi and Sasuke to make them relive over and over horrible moments, which eventually causes mental damage and puts them in a coma-like state.

It's part of the 'mange sharingan' jutsu used by true sharingan successors.

Tsukiyomi appears to be a genjutsu which inflicts both mental and actual physical damage on the recipient: Kakashi collapses soon after being hit with it, and Sasuke falls almost immediately into a coma-state, with blood dripping from the corners of his mouth and his eyes eerily blank. (chapter 147)

Now, in the next chapter, 148, Kisame asks Itachi why he is retreating from Jiraiya. Itachi replies that there is no need to rush, that his body needs rest (implying that using the Tsukiyomi repeatedly takes a great deal of stamina/chakra) and also that:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

Now, the translation lists Tsukiyomi as 'moon' and Amaterasu as 'sun', thus "until the moon becomes the sun, we should not use it." However, Amaterasu is actually the sun goddess, the principal goddess in the pantheon of Japan's native religion, Shinto. The Imperial line was held to have descended from Amaterasu, hence why the Emperor is so revered.

What I think this means for Itachi: if Tsukiyomi is genjutsu so powerful that it causes both mental and physical damage and puts the user in a coma, and Amaterasu is a jutsu even more powerful, named after the highest goddess in Shinto myth, then Amaterasu must be a genjutsu that kills. What could be a more powerful jutsu than a way to kill someone only by locking their eyes with the sharingan?

No wonder Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly.

[Gods_Son]

yeah, I don't doubt that there is more strength in Itachi then what we have seen so far. On a side note, the mange sharingan reminds me a lot of the jyagan in getbackers.

[Neji-Aniki-sama]

Itachi is more powerful than Orochimaru, at least Oro himself said so. So, we can assume that Sasuke will eventually become as strong as Itachi.
But *how* did Itachi mastered his jutsu? I mean, I would guess he trained a lot. And is Sasuke willing to work hard on his sharingan, or he will just take the shortcut offered by Orochimaru? Itachi got where he is *without* the cursed seal, and I wonder if in the end it would be more damaging than beneficial to Sasuke, having in mind that the seal drains tons of chakra, among other things. So there would be chakra needed for the seal *and* the mange. And worse, every time Sasuke tries to use his sharingan, the seal will start acting up...How will Sasuke manage to channel that huge amount of chacra without training? Right now, I don't see him exactly in a training mood.
Also, I think this jutsu may be similar to the Kaiten, in the sense that it has to be learned. So, Neji learned his move by himself, but how about Itachi? Did he just figure that out or did he learn it with his family? Will Sasuke be able to figure the mange sharingan by himself, I don't think Itachi is exactly willing to teach his little brother that.
The only one who could teach him is Kakashi, but it doesn't seem that he can perform that jutsu...

[Raven]

All this could have gone in the Itachi discussion thread, btw.

Similar to the way Neji taught himself his clan's moves, Sasuke should be able to teach himself the Sharingan abilities, so it shouldn't be a problem I'd guess.

[itachi_]

Hmm you say that Tsukiyomi is a part of the mange sharingan and Amaterasu is supposed to be even more powerful, how about that three-super-attack theory one genjutsu, ninjutsu and tai-jutsu, he has showed us the first two now we're waiting on an awesome tai-jutsu.. If your theory is correct then I wonder which technique he used on all the Uchiha's (parents, clan members) etc.. probably the powerful one.

[Boogster]

Good theory. All conjecture of course, but this kind of intelligent guess-work is what makes Naruto exciting.

[Mut]

hmm...interesting. i didn't think of itachi have 3 super powerful genjutsus. i thought it would be like: one insane genjutsu, ninjutsu, and taijutsu.

maybe we'll never know! =(

[raijin]

Originally posted by: lasaire
I have a theory about Itachi. First, some background.

Tsukiyomi is the name of the attack Itachi uses on Kakashi and Sasuke to make them relive over and over horrible moments, which eventually causes mental damage and puts them in a coma-like state.

It's part of the 'mange sharingan' jutsu used by true sharingan successors.

Tsukiyomi appears to be a genjutsu which inflicts both mental and actual physical damage on the recipient: Kakashi collapses soon after being hit with it, and Sasuke falls almost immediately into a coma-state, with blood dripping from the corners of his mouth and his eyes eerily blank. (chapter 147)

Now, in the next chapter, 148, Kisame asks Itachi why he is retreating from Jiraiya. Itachi replies that there is no need to rush, that his body needs rest (implying that using the Tsukiyomi repeatedly takes a great deal of stamina/chakra) and also that:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

Now, the translation lists Tsukiyomi as 'moon' and Amaterasu as 'sun', thus "until the moon becomes the sun, we should not use it." However, Amaterasu is actually the sun goddess, the principal goddess in the pantheon of Japan's native religion, Shinto. The Imperial line was held to have descended from Amaterasu, hence why the Emperor is so revered.

What I think this means for Itachi: if Tsukiyomi is genjutsu so powerful that it causes both mental and physical damage and puts the user in a coma, and Amaterasu is a jutsu even more powerful, named after the highest goddess in Shinto myth, then Amaterasu must be a genjutsu that kills. What could be a more powerful jutsu than a way to kill someone only by locking their eyes with the sharingan?

No wonder Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly.

Well, first off, it's Mangekyou Sharingan, not Mange. Mangekyou means kaleidescope, the use of "Mange" was a mistranslation or a lack of translation... it seems they forgot about the "kyou". Secondly, I wouldn't trust the translations as 100% accurate... chapters around that area were done by random people/groups. I have an English script from AK of Troy of Toriyama's World (the original group who translated Naruto) which has the conversation between Itachi & Kisame:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

As something entirely different. As for the translation of Amaterasu, from the kanji characters used, it can basically mean "Light of the Heavens". I'm not sure of the translation of Tsukuyomi, since there seems to be various ways to represent it in kanji... it can mean "Vision of the Night Moon", "Moon Reader", or "Moon Hell". As mentioned, Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, but Amaterasu is most likely a ninjutsu considering the black flames which were created when Itachi closed his eyes and a big hole appeared in the wall.

If you've done your research about Shinto deities, you would know that there is a third, Susanoo, who is the "God of Storms", which could possibly represent Itachi's third attack... maybe a supreme taijutsu technique.

On a sidenote, if anyone happens the know the kanji used for Tsukuyomi in the Naruto manga could you post it here.

[hiten mitsurugi]

I think his eyes are red because he doesn't have enough sleep, always on the run. About his three pupils, he should really have lady tsunade take a look at them, it's not normal, it's probably giving him kaleidoscopic vision. No wonder he has headaches (probably killed off the clan to stop them from experiencing headaches).

[lasaire]

think his eyes are red because he doesn't have enough sleep, always on the run. About his three pupils, he should really have lady tsunade take a look at them, it's not normal, it's probably giving him kaleidoscopic vision. No wonder he has headaches (probably killed off the clan to stop them from experiencing headaches).

Yep, that's it. That solves the entire mystery!

[Neji-Aniki-sama]

Question is: will Sasuke get his third (or forth if you consider the regular one) pupil? When and how...stay tuned.

[Haku no Fuyu]

Find out next week on,
NARUTO MANGA DISSCUSION!!!
BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Himura_san]

Originally posted by: lasaire
I have a theory about Itachi. First, some background.

Tsukiyomi is the name of the attack Itachi uses on Kakashi and Sasuke to make them relive over and over horrible moments, which eventually causes mental damage and puts them in a coma-like state.

It's part of the 'mange sharingan' jutsu used by true sharingan successors.

Tsukiyomi appears to be a genjutsu which inflicts both mental and actual physical damage on the recipient: Kakashi collapses soon after being hit with it, and Sasuke falls almost immediately into a coma-state, with blood dripping from the corners of his mouth and his eyes eerily blank. (chapter 147)

Now, in the next chapter, 148, Kisame asks Itachi why he is retreating from Jiraiya. Itachi replies that there is no need to rush, that his body needs rest (implying that using the Tsukiyomi repeatedly takes a great deal of stamina/chakra) and also that:

"Not to mention, until Tsukiyomi becomes Amaterasu, we should not use it."

Now, the translation lists Tsukiyomi as 'moon' and Amaterasu as 'sun', thus "until the moon becomes the sun, we should not use it." However, Amaterasu is actually the sun goddess, the principal goddess in the pantheon of Japan's native religion, Shinto. The Imperial line was held to have descended from Amaterasu, hence why the Emperor is so revered.

What I think this means for Itachi: if Tsukiyomi is genjutsu so powerful that it causes both mental and physical damage and puts the user in a coma, and Amaterasu is a jutsu even more powerful, named after the highest goddess in Shinto myth, then Amaterasu must be a genjutsu that kills. What could be a more powerful jutsu than a way to kill someone only by locking their eyes with the sharingan?

No wonder Orochimaru wants Sasuke so badly.

There was a similar discussion on NarutoFan (before shit hit the fan) regarding this. I wish I had saved it on my comp since it's now lost, but it basically came down to Itachi having 3 powerful Jutsus from the sharingan and the last one we have not seen. We saw the paralization and the black flame.
The last one had something to do with the god of war if I remember correctly.
Basically in conclusion Itachi is one bad Mofo!!!

edit: It may be god of storm (do not remember).
I am guessing that he used the last Jutsu to defeat the Uchiha clan! O_o
Also it was mentioned @Narutofan that his last jutsu was a form of taijutsu.

[Raven]

Originally posted by: raijin
Well, first off, it's Mangekyou Sharingan, not Mange. Mangekyou means kaleidescope, the use of "Mange" was a mistranslation or a lack of translation... it seems they forgot about the "kyou".

We can call it Mange for ease of typing though. It's just a nickname for it, no need to go into literal translations. If someone typed Oro, would you say "his name's Orochimaru, actually"?

[raijin]

Well, I was just giving the correct name if people were unaware that it should be Mangekyou and not Mange. And the use of "Mange" is not really a "nickname" per se... since the mistranslation was used constantly when it was mentioned, people just naturally assumed that it was the correct name.

[Raven]

Well it's not an official nickname as such, but it's generally how it's known around these forums, it's quicker and easier to type. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[BakaShinji]

The black flame is not ama-chamacallit.
From what I remember, it sounded as if isami wanted itachi to go somewhere for ama-chamacallit to "awaken"? Maybe it's also a hidden demon? =P. Naruto's beginning to sound like power rangers. (turbo rangers rule!).

anyways.

Tsukiyomi is no doubt Itachi's genjutsu.
The black flame is likely to be itachi's ninjutsu - as all the Uchiha's possessed this elemental power.
I think Amaterasu would be a suped up version of the Tsukiyomi genjutsu (perhaps during a full moon)? During the flashbacks of Itachi slayment (this a word?) of the villagers, anyone take notice of the shape of the moon?

It doesn't have to be taijutsu. Hand-to-hand combat is not supreme. I think there's an odd fascination with it because of gimps like Rock Lee. Would you really need Taijutsu if you can disable your opponents by looking at them? And if we take a look at the closest relative of Itachi to make guesswork at his abilities, Sasuke has shown no real Taijutsu prowess (stealing Rock's moves isn't spectacular).

Well that's my two cents for now.

[Neji-Aniki-sama]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
And if we take a look at the closest relative of Itachi to make guesswork at his abilities, Sasuke has shown no real Taijutsu prowess (stealing Rock's moves isn't spectacular).

Well that's my two cents for now.

Yep, that's my point, why, instead of asking Kakashi to train him, he went straight to Orochi????
I don't think he's smart enough to learn that on his own, or at least be prepared physically to perform such jutsus. One thing he could do is to figure out how to get more chakra to be able to do more than 2 chidoris a day. Danm, even Sakura can control chakra better than him. He's more lazy and envious than anything. Besides, being strong is not everything, case and point Shikamaru.
He could sit down and figure out a way to kill his brother in his sleep, instead of do the macho thing and see who's stronger. Well, enough of him.

[jonny-mt]

A very nifty theory here...me likes.

Originally posted by: raijin
As for the translation of Amaterasu, from the kanji characters used, it can basically mean "Light of the Heavens". I'm not sure of the translation of Tsukuyomi, since there seems to be various ways to represent it in kanji... it can mean "Vision of the Night Moon", "Moon Reader", or "Moon Hell".

Yeah, those are the individual meanings of the kanji used for Amaterasu, but the kanji used in the manga are definitely the same ones that are used for the name of the goddess. As for the kanji used for Tsukiyomi, it is "Moon Reader" (the second is the same kanji used for 'yomu', to read).

All this added coolness just points more and more to the likelihood that Itachi is going to be the focal point of the final Naruto story arc...you know, in, like, twenty years....

[edit]Just realized I gave the potential/passive form for 'to read' instead of the plain...sorry, I'm retarded. It's close to the end of finals, so count yourselves lucky that I didn't put down causative-passive with verb stem contructs tacked on....[/edit]

[DeluxSkillz]

i always thought it meant Moon and Sun so I always thought he had to rest for the moon to turn into the sun for his power to be regained