Theory about Itachi's eyes

[raijin]

Ok one more shot on Range before I move on to Raijin's comment. Kakashi knew about buushin and gates before. But did he ever perform them? Chronological fact from the story is NO. Kakashi PERFORMS abilities AFTER he was exposed to them. You have no evidence to say that he could PERFORM them before. All you can say is that he "knew of them" prior.

Well, it's been mentioned before, but Kakashi is one of the Leaf's top ninjas. Why would he need to copy a Jounin level technique from Naruto? He doesn't. There is no chronological fact in your theory, just assumptions. Just because he saw Naruto perform Kage Bunshin, does not mean he copied it.

Second point. Ok, say what you're saying is right Kakashi knows all about Gates before Lee does it. Does that fucking mean he knows all about Mange when he explains it to Asuma and Kurenai what Mange might do if they look in his eyes? NO IT DOES NOT. Otherwise Kakashi knows Mange Sharingan as well as the Gates since "before those two were itches in their daddies pants".

Kakashi just tells Asuma and Kurenai to just close their eyes, he did not explain what the Mangekyou Sharingan was. It seems like he knew something about it, but not thoroughly. Itachi is the one who explains to Kakashi the power of his Mangekyou Sharingan.

Hell no he didn't. If Hayate did, the buushins would have done damage instead of forcing Hayate to jump down and make an actual blow from above. And only 3 buushins from a jounin? HAHA. Naruto can do 100 without Kyuubi. It was a totally different jutsu seeing how it gained praise from the Sand Nin.

Well, I have the Official Naruto Character Data Book (published/released by Jump Comics & Kishimoto) which states that Kage Bunshin is used in the Dance of the Crescent Moon. With Kage Bunshin, you are unable to distinguish which clone is the "original" since chakra is divided evenly among them. The Kage Bunshins were used as distraction as the "real" Hayate attacked from above. With regular Bunshin, since it is a low level skill and creates "false" clones, a highly skilled individual is capable of spotting the real person.

BakaShinji, you have failed to respond to the questions I have asked from you. Itachi never worries or comments about Kakashi copying his techniques. As I mentioned in a previous post, please provide the chapter & page #, you are possibly confusing this incident to Kabuto's comments to Baki concerning Kakashi copying his techniques.

[BakaShinji]

Fear of Sharingan:
Mmm... You're right about the fear of copying. Thanks for pointing that out for me. That was between Baki and Kakashi, not Itachi and Kakashi.

Hayate's Kage Buushin:
Well, if the Official Naruto Character Database says it, I guess it has to be true. It wasn't something that I was aware of before.
Ok so Hayate can Kage Buushin. Great.
But that's only the third person that can do it, not counting Kakashi.

Hokage 3, Naruto, Hayate
edit: actually 4, Ebisu too /edit

Adding one more person to the pool people that can do it doesn't put the idea that Kakashi can do it beyond an assumption.
I still hold evidence of chronological event as greater evidence for my own opposing view.

Also I take production facts into account. The fact that fact parts were added between the manga to anime to help string together Kakashi's copying.
A. Kakashi watching Naruto from his bubble (for Kage Buushin)
B. Kakashi's brain on the cliff (for Gate numero uno or dos. Both are in the brain)

BTW: let us rejoice in ceasefire and GO WATCH 78 =D~~~~

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: raijin
EDIT: Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

It was Kawarimi not Kage buushin.
"Kawarimi yo. " - Orochimaru ep 30 14:01 ANBU v.

[raijin]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji

Originally posted by: raijin
EDIT: Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

It was Kawarimi not Kage buushin.
"Kawarimi yo. " - Orochimaru ep 30 14:01 ANBU v.

I was using the manga as my reference. It seems like the animators changed it to kawarimi in the anime. But Orochimaru says he uses Kage Bunshin in the manga:

Orochimaru Kage Bunshin

For those of you who don't know Japanese, the middle left frame where Orochimaru is speaking says "Kage Bunshin".

[itachi_]

If Kakashi cannot use or copy that Mangekyou Sharingan with just his eye, it would be good if they can change his blood, Tsunande can do a operation and change blood, like human change from AB to A or vise versa... making Kakashi achieve the advance bloodline... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[RangeOfHakke]

Mut@t@ has to be like either my hero or just the only person i totaly respect on this forum right now. I just read all the stuff after my post and started to pull my hair out(excluding the stuff from Mut@t@
, and death boo z cause these two have brains yay for brains!!!). First BakaShinji you cant believe how stupid you sound, saying how since kakashi was staring at naruto and was all suprised that mUUUUssst mean that he was copying the kage bushin. hmmmmm lets think about this for a moment....WRONG! so are you telling me that when naruto first did kage bushin no jitsu and iruka sensei was looking at him all surprised that he must of been also copying it..o0o0o0o wait i think everyone that saw naruto do it and was surprised started copying it...hell maybe if you were staring at me and i did kage bushin no jitsu you would copy it from seeing me do it to. No idiot he was staring at him cause narutoo0o0 is a genin and how the hell did he learn how to do kage bushin no jitsu. He was amazed, shocked, and blown away that a dropout like naruto could do that. I cant wait to see what you got to say to that one.

ok when you did your cute little rebuttal to my statement about the gates...you were wrong once again. Kakashi was jsut focusing chakra like he showed naruto and saske and sakura how to do...he put his hand in front of his face and focused his energy, when did you ever see lee put his hand in front of his face and focuse in order to open the 1st gate...thats right never. And you completly bypassed my point how kakashi probably definatly learned the gates from Gai...who he has fought many times before. but all in all BakaShinji that was not the best part to what you said....when you stated how i said that kakashi knew about the gates so intern he knew how to do them(first thats not what i said i said he probably knew them cause he fought Gai manytimes...idiot dont make up things that i did not say) you used that point to some how make me look dumb(which is not possible) by saying that o0o0o0o that means since he knew about mange sharingan that means he must of knew how to do it all along....are you serious???!??!?!?!? are you sure your not on drugs, when the hell did i ever freaking say that???? you are so stupid and i jsut want to scream i cant believe you wrote that statement...i read it then laughed then read it again and was dumbfounded how you could be so brain dead. I never said any of that. So making up something i said then using that to prove your dumbass mange sharingan point was....well....retarted for lack of better words. go get some common sense before you post here again.

Mut@t@ im srry bout the anger in this post none of it is towards you.

[Raven]

Mut@t@/dazzz and Death BOO Z just owned this thread. The Kage Boushin is a Jounin level technique, there's every chance in the world that Kakashi knew it long before Naruto was even born. To say that he would bother copying it from his lowly gennin student is just idiocy.

I'm not even gonna bother with the gates thing, you can't "copy" a physical change in your body which is what opening the gates is. That thing on the mountain wasn't a gate opening, he was just concentrating extra hard for assistance in climbing the rest of the way.

I could go on, but dazzz and DBZ have covered everything.

BTW DBZ, I think it was Kage Boushin that Kakashi used to scare the guys at the bridge, not a regular boushin.

[BakaShinji]

"he put his hand in front of his face and focused his energy, when did you ever see lee put his hand in front of his face and focuse in order to open the 1st gate...thats right never" - Range
1. You're right, Lee doesn't ever put his hand in front of his face. But from what I remember, Kakashi had one arm tied behind his back and his 2nd arm holding the fucking cliff. So what? His third arm was in front of his face? Yea.... okay.... sounds plausible....

2. Secondly, if he was focusing his chakra - why does it zoom in on a close-up of his "brain" - where the first gate happens to be? If it was just his chakra - shouldn't it have been to his arm, the body part that needed energy to lift him from the cliff?

3. Third, point, I didn't address before - not because I'm ignoring it. But I felt this was a little story-telling made by you. Kakashi fought Gai many times, I'll give you that. But it IS conjecture that Gai even used the gates on Kakashi. But we KNOW Lee USED the gates.
So ask yourself this ... What is more likely...
A. Kakashi might have copied the gates from Gai in the past from an event that we have NOT even seen occur. Or
B. Kakashi might as well have copied the gates from Lee, an event that we KNOW did occur?

And everyone here needs to clarify this. Knowing OF, Knowing HOW, and being able to PERFORM all THREE DIFFERENT THINGS!
For example:
Kakashi knows OF Mange Sharingan before he met Itachi in the manga.
Kakashi is likely to know HOW to work Mange Sharingan after copying it (assuming he did it for Sasuke's ongoing education).
Kakashi CAN to perform Mange, if he had Uchiha blood.

And from Death BOO z:
Hokage, Orochimaru, 2 ANBU knowing Kage Buushin.
#1. Hokage yes, He is the "professor of shinobi's" and came before the time of the 4ths forbidden scroll. He performs it during Fuujin. Yes you're right.
#2. Hell no! Orochimaru does his weird ass mud buushins. Never Kage Buushin. His buushin's have never attacked for damage.
#3. Hell no again. Does every person who say "oooo, kage buushin, that's a nice skill" have the ability to pull it off? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to "knowing of, knowing how, and being able to perform" points. Sakura said "oo, kage buushin is cool" - she knows OF it, can she do it? - NO.

And finally from MATATA:
"tell me where it is CLEAR, CRYSTAL CLEAR, that kakashi is copying it with his sharingan. don't tell me that it's "obvious" cuz he is looking with both eyes cuz YOU don't know if he is copying it or not. only kishimoto knows."
Ok. This is a stretch. Tell me why the anime producers decided to show Kakashi watching Naruto perform Kage Buushin against Zabuza when it wasn't shown in the manga. This to me is an obvious sign that the producers wanted the viewers to realize Kakashi has his Sharingan eyes peeled - and he saw what Naruto did. Watchers of the anime is a younger audience, and the manga readers are an older audience. Doesn't it seem odd, that the animators made it a specific point to show that Kakashi was watching with his Sharingan - while it was a tacit point in the manga?

Meanwhile, your case of him getting it elsewhere goes like this:
"We have never see Kakashi copy it anywhere else or perform it prior to this event. We have no information to lead us to believe he has ever seen this ability. But I think he did know it somehow, somewhere, sometime before because, don't forget, he's just too crazy a mofo jounin not to." Yes that convinced me... totally. My points against this:
1. 4th hokage bans kage buushin. Ok, Kakashi was a young lad. Maybe he copied it before the 4th banned it, since he was a 1337 little ninja.
2. But WAIT, Kakashi didn't have his sharingan eye until sasuke was 7-8. Oh shite....

Well, I'm not drawing any conclusions for anybody here. Make up your own mind on this one.

Added/Edited here:
Commented by Range:
"No idiot he was staring at him cause narutoo0o0 is a genin and how the hell did he learn how to do kage bushin no jitsu. He was amazed, shocked, and blown away that a dropout like naruto could do that. I cant wait to see what you got to say to that one. "
"idiot shinji" please. How am I going to get by this one? Ok let me try. Let's start with your analysis of Kakashi's emotions. You must have graduate from mind-reader school or something. amazed... shocked... and blown away.... all emotions you saw in that one second clip of Kakashi trapped inside of a water bubble. That's pretty good. But as good as you are making guesses about character emotions, I'm making guesses about Kishimoto's emotions about plot telling. Kakashi was shocked... (consider all the complications of expressing this emotion in a cartoon character, you came up with this) ok. Kakashi was amazed (again consider all the complications of expressing this emotion in a cartoon character, you came up with this)... ok. Kakashi was blown away (and one last time consider all the complications of expressing this emotion in a cartoon character, you came up with this) ok... Adding Kakashi was copying Naruto's jutsu wouldn't be a stretch - seeing how I'm drawing from multiple sources of evidence, not just one scene with Kakashi in a bubble. I'm saying simply if you can guess Kakashi's emotions from one scene, I'm guessing that Kakashi copied Naruto's jutsu analyzing all contextual events - mainly the fact that Zabuza, Naruto, Kakashi were like in their own little world at the end of episode 9. And the fact that the manga doesn't contain this odd scene with Kakashi watching a year ago. It is a well known fact that the anime adds scenes and removes scenes in its effort to ease and smoothen out the storying telling process.
/end edit

Btw MATATA: I have confidence that the readers here know that events I present are facts. And the conclusions I draw are not. I'm building a theory - not writing a bible. Building my theory I present facts that support. Outside of the poor job this thread is doing with a negative case against my theory, you've done nothing for your own positive case to support your own theories. Wuteva - this positive/negative thing might be a bit hard to understand.

Just out of curiousity - ages please, and level of education?

Edit part II: btw. I like how when I reread the previous posts. People like to cover their tracks by changing their comments. I thought it was ettiquite to leave them the way they are and correct ourselves in subsequent posts. Way to go people! I can feel that moral fiber evaporating from your spineless bodies.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Just out of curiousity - ages please, and level of education?

i'm 19 and i attend univ of cali santa barbara. but that doesn't even matter, i could've still kept arguing with you if i had the intelligence of a 9 year old.

i will be back later to respond to all these long posts, but i gotta go right now. ciao.

EDIT: what about you bakashinji, age/school?

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
Just out of curiousity - ages please, and level of education?

i'm 19 and i attend univ of cali santa barbara. but that doesn't even matter, i could've still kept arguing with you if i had the intelligence of a 9 year old.

i will be back later to respond to all these long posts, but i gotta go right now. ciao.

Good job, you made it to a UC that isn't known for its bums. Only pot-smoking.

edit: turning 21 in about 10 days... mmm nail polish... and i'm at UCLA, we have bums

[raijin]

Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshin before, in the Forest of Death against Anko. Also, the reason why Kage Bunshin is not used frequently, is that it evenly divides the user's chakra among the clones. The more clones, the more the chakra is divided and theoretically the weaker the user becomes since chakra is derived from stamina. Naruto has an abnormal amount of stamina as well as the Kyuubi's chakra; this is why he can use Kage Bunshin frequently.

[Elessar]

Alright, there has already been said a lot. Some words of wisdom, some of ...well, not wisdom.

Let's start with the easy things first:
[*] two [2] thumbs up for Mut@t@, RangeOfHakke and Death BOOZ[*] big THANK YOU to Opera Software ASA for the "Notes" feature in the Opera 7 browser. This post wouldn't be possible without it (a highly developed and integrated notepad so to speak)

<u>1. Manga Version/Quotes Confusion</u>
There was a confusion on what Itachi said. Reason: there are two different versions circulating:[*] early volumes: Toriyama's World // AK of Troy -- high quality[*] middle: various scanlations of questionable quality[*] late: Inane -- high quality
The situation is described in a chapter of the middle parts. Some of these volumes (3 or 4) were redone by Inane, but the release did at no point get huge attention. Even most Fansites were not aware of them. I now that for sure because I caused the manga archive of i thnk narutochuushin and narutofan to be updated during a discussion concerning "The Mist's 7 Swords" in this very forum.

What BakaShinJi said (similar blood) is the early, questionable version. Mut@t@'s quotes are made out of the Inane release.
Personally, I go with Inane, but a little inaccuracy through translation can't be avoided. Always keep that in mind.

<u>2. A Rant About Advanced Bloodlines:</u>[*]according to Kakashi he can't copy them due to his lack of the needed physics[*]a bloodline is a genetical lineage, not a blood type. You can't aquire it through blood transfusion[*]you and esp. Sharingan user can to some extent analyze them, but to fully understand the way they work they would need to know and understand the genetical differences their effects

This leads me to the following conclusions:
Kakashi might have gathered some information about Tsukiyomi, but in no way we can speak of a copy. That would require Kakashi to understand concepts that you have to be born into. But it is quite safe that he might be able to give some hints to Sasuke. All three in that situation doing nothing would have killed them all, so what had to be done is: (a) survive (b) gather information for later use (c) keep him busy in the hope for help.
Kakashi as konoha's #1 technician and only one who might survive Tsukijomi did what he had to do as a konoha shinobi. If Sasuke returns and there is the need for it, he will give Sasuke the information he gathered to save the village. Afterall, he is anly a tool of konoha.

<u>3. The Mangekyou Sharingan:</u>[*]we know the sharingan develops with time: 1 dot ==&gt; 2 dots ==&gt; 3 dots[*]Sasuke awakens his sharingan during a fight[*]Itachi wants to wait until some hidden functionality fully awakens

So I think considering the Mangekyou Sharingan as another (the highest?) development form of the sharingan is a safe assumption. Itachi gives credit to Kakashi because of the level to which he can utilize the sharingan he has. But his sharingan is frozen in his development as he misses the lineage. Like he cannot shut it down, he can only train and learn to use it's current status to his best abilities. It can't evolve anymore.
Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are jutsus bound to that development status of the sharingan. That is why Kakashi can't perform them and only one of Itachi's blood can counter it. Because Kakashi's is frozen and only a true Uchiha can develop it to that extent.

<u>4. Kakashi copying Kage Bunshin no Jutsu from Naruto:</u>[*]3rd Hokage ===&gt; Jiraiya ===&gt; 4th Hokage ===&gt; Kakashi[*]Kakashi is at the moment konoha's #1 technician[*]Kakashi is famous enough in the world of Naruto to be one of the shinobis that is warned of in other countries handbooks[*]Kakashi copied more than 1'000 jutsus throughout his missions[*]Kage Bunshin is explained in a classified scroll, but a classified document is everywhere obtainable to higher ups[*]Kage Bunshin is a jounin level jutsu[*]the two chuunins in the finals knew about it[*]Iruka knew about it[*]Shinobis from other countries knew about shadow clones but weren't too sure. It is a powerful jutsu and it's knowledge is a military advantage for konoha. Therefor it is classified so that it can't be easily obtained by enemy forces (common military sense)

Let's sum that up: Kakashi is a jounin and one of the top elite shinobis but does not know a jounin jutsu of his own country? He copied over 1'000 jutsus but only enemy ones, never the very handy Kage Bunshin from his allies? The 4th trains a highly skilled new shinobi but doesn't train him all he knows? No.

Now the scene were Kakashi watches Naruto.... First, he wasn't shocked in awe. Kakashi and all the others from team 7 knew about Naruto's ability to create shadowclones after the survival training. Yet the above is still valid, it is safe to assume that he already knew it. The reason why he watched Naruto, well, there are three newbie genins, a customer of his village, a S ranked criminal and he is inside a water prison. In order to save his villages reputation, the genins who he is responsible for and his own life he has to watch the genins actions carefully in order to find an opening in Zabuza's defense to free himself. Doing that with closed eyes isn't an easy task, even with the sharingan.

Conclusion: Kakashi did not copy the kage bunshin from Naruto

<u>5. Naruto Can Pull Out 100 Shadowclones Without Using The Kyubi Chakra:</u>[*]as Jiraiya says, the seal is made in a way that it merges with his chakra constantly and increases his chakra amount and gives fast regeneration[*]the red kyubi chakra is a second chakra source beneath his normal one in that he boasts the limits of the normal merge process and gains more than normally would merge[*]he pulls a decent number of clones in the forest after Orochimaru seals him up

The conclusions I draw:
even if he did that with a sealed chakra source, his huge stamina is still kyubi. Constant effects change people. The human body adopts to it. His huge stamina is the outcome of a life under the influence of the nine tails. I doubt he would be able to pull these amounts of clones after being sealed for more than a year. But this questions remains to a certain degree.

<u>6. Kakashi Copied The Gates From Rock Lee:</u>[*]the gates are a forbidden art[*]forbidden arts are teached as a last joker (Gai/Lee: Gates, Orochimaru/Anko: Suicide)[*]Gai can be called an elite Jounin of Konoha (taijutsu master)[*]Gai knows the gates as he teached them to his group[*]besides the fact that only Lee was able to do it, Gai's complete team knows the concepts behind the gates[*]Kakashi knows about the gates as he explains them to the other genins[*]Kakashi is an elite Konoha Jounin (#1 ...)[*]Kakashi and Gai are rivals and fought a lot against each other. Also they fought at high levels including their trump cards as Gai is familiar with Kakashi's sharingan[*]Kakashi and Gai still show excellent team work when needed

Conclusions:
An important assumption: I think Kakashi and Gai did not anly fight but also train with each other. In particular, Kakashi trained to use his sharingan with Gai after obtaining it and they worked on the chidori together. Testing it against Gai's speed is the best test known so far.
Also to fight effectively at each others side, you have to know your mate's capabilities.
So the first point is that Kakashi has seen Gai using the gates to (a) training them for Gai (b) learning to handle enemies using them for Kakashi. The second point is that in a total war shinobis capable of using them in desparate situations to give their force an advantage are highly valuable weapon and only a few are able to open them (1 out of 3 in Gai's Team). So I assume that the gates are learned to a broad spectrum of shinobi to see who can use them and later on teach them. If Kakashi wasn't able to open them at that time, he won't be able to do so now. Lee or not.
Third point: the #1 technician of the village learning a jutsu from a genin is against all common sense.

<u>7. Kakashi Opening A Gate To Climb The Mountain:</u>[*]the anime shows a brain[*]the manga does not[*]focus one's mind is rather simple[*]the initial lotus is rather complicated, only few are capable of doing so[*]the initial lotus is the so far only known way to forcefully open gate one

Conclusion:
Kakashi did not open the first gate. If it would be that simple, everybody would do so. Opening it by just a flick of your mind gives a big surprise monumontum in a fight, other than the lotus. Also thinking "sesame open" isn't that forcefully.

7.1
"Kakashi knew about Gate/Buushin before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."
"So Kakashi knew about Mange before, so therefore he must be able to perform it."

True.
Were did Kakashi learn about the Gates? It is a well known forbidden art that is taught in Konoha.
Were did he learn about MaSha? Either in researches about the sharingan or from his often referenced Uchiha friend. Can safelfy be assumed as a well protected Clan secret.
Why didn't he perform them?
Because he didn't meet the physical requirements to open a gate, so to say the lack of it.
Remember, the MaSha is a development stadium of a blood heritage and can't be performed. Performed is the Tsukijomi.

<u>8.</u>
Water clone and other water jutsus: this one is tricky, it might seem that Kakashi copied the moves but i believe he knew them all along, the fact is that he used a water jutsu before Zabuza managed to do it (to make Zabuza believe Kakashi can read into the future and copy from there), so i believe that even saying that he copied the water clone was just part of his "dance". i'm also reinforced by the fact Kakashi recogniezed the exploding water clone before it went BOOM.

Very good one. We know he copied a truckload of jutsus before. Not letting your enemy know that you already know that jutsu but make him believe that you copied it from him right now gives you a tremendous psychological advantage. I totally agree with this.



Got a little longer than planned, sorry. Thanks to all who read till here.

Edit: this doesn't address BakaShinJi's last post as it wasn't written yet. This was written after Cmdr_Raven. Will read it later on and comment on it.

[BakaShinji]

1. Mange quotes and confusion.
I'm going with Inane. In my post above, after reading my Inane version, I agree Itachi referred to the "body" not blood.

2. Bloodlines
This is what I'm saying.
Kakashi can't copy (perform them).
Kakashi can copy (learn the blueprint) and teach it.
-and the transfusion thing is my little blue hope. don't wreck it Elessar!!!

3. Mangekyou
I didn't know about the constand development and turning off thing before. But this makes sense. And it supports the theory that Kakashi can't pull off Mange. And I find myself more agreeable to this fact.
But I still maintain he knows OF, and knows HOW it's done.

4. copying Kage Bushin from Naruto
- I still think he does copy it from Naruto.
- First of all, Orochimaru was trained under the 3rd like Jiraiya was. Jiraiya and Orochimaru have not performed Kage Buushin even though it comes in handy. In fact, orochimaru prefers his "kawarimi clay" over the use of buushins altogether. I would say the lineage of education about buushin is broken at this point.
- Between 4th =&gt; Kakashi, Kage buushin was banned. And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.
kakashi is #1 perhaps. But it does not mean he knows everything. Can all S class criminals perform Kage buushin even though they're in tons of handbooks shared by all countries? No - Orochimaru is a good example.
- The scroll isn't just classified. It is forbidden. No one can see it.
- Iruka knew about it. Ok, knowing and performing are different things, let me just reiterate that.

5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina.

6. Gates from Lee
- Yes. I think he did.
- It is a last joker. Even Gai made a rule never to perform it unless "protecting someone important."
- Gai knows the gates, but his ability to perform isn't certain - although I feel he probably does know it. He didn't plan on teaching his group the gates, until they could perform the first lotus - which Lee was the only one that accomplished.
- Gai and Kakashi are rivals. Lee and Neji are rivals. Was Lee going to tell Neji about his gates and his "move to defeat" him? No. That would seem to point that Gai wouldn't tell Kakashi either.
- Gai is familiar with Kakashi's sharingan because Kakashi lost an eye, I would be familiar with my friend's new glass eye.
- Yes they show excellent teamwork, but at the same time - they are specialists at what each individually does best.
- Technician will learn what he can whenever he can. He isn't picky about who he learns from. He's slick like that.

7. Climb the mountain
- focus one's mind would just be a picture of their face .. like:
Sakura does "kai"
Sasuke does "foot concentration to catch Kunai"
Naruto does same to his feet to water walk.
- Initial lotus is a forceful way to open gate one? I didn't know that - but I'll check...
- Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

8. Water clone
I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.

[Elessar]

All quotes originally posted by BakaShinji:

Kakashi can copy (learn the blueprint) and teach it.
-and the transfusion thing is my little blue hope. don't wreck it Elessar!!!

I refuse to believe in a complete blueprint, just some aspects.
And I will wreck it. It will be a great pleasure.

3. Mangekyou
But I still maintain he knows OF, and knows HOW it's done.

Well, the OF is out of question, he was attacked with it. I am quite sure he recognized that 72h of agony.
For the HOW... he has seen it, yes. But I doubt he could see what causes this development of the eye. Quite sure he knows the chakra mixture one needs to perform Tsukijomi, but I doubt out of seeing the development state of the sharingan he can conclude what has to be done to get it to that point.

4. copying Kage Bushin from Naruto
Jiraiya and Orochimaru have not performed Kage Buushin even though it comes in handy. In fact, orochimaru prefers his "kawarimi clay" over the use of buushins altogether.

As Raijin said, Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshins. And in what fight would a shadowclone have come handy to Jiraiya? Against Kisame and Itachi in that small corridor? Or against Orochimaru on top of Gamabunta's head?
And for the earth clone kawarimari, it is a kawarimari not a real clone. A shadowclone would have cost a lot more chakra and provided no advantage in that situation. Orochimaru controlled the fight, he had no need for distraction. The earth thing was wise, a shadowclone in that situation dumb.

Between 4th =&gt; Kakashi, Kage buushin was banned. And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process. The scroll isn't just classified. It is forbidden. No one can see it.
kakashi is #1 perhaps. But it does not mean he knows everything. Can all S class criminals perform Kage buushin even though they're in tons of handbooks shared by all countries? No - Orochimaru is a good example.

Not Kage Bunshin was classified, but a scroll with tons of jutsus - kage bunshin being one of them.
And I will continue to use classified, we had that in earlier discussions.
The scroll contains as far as we know a great amount of konohas high level jutsus. Completely not using them would weaken konoha to a large extent. Therefor this scroll is classified - with reaching a certain level and reputation limited and observed access to it is granted or the particular jutsus inside it taught.
The scroll is restricted from public because the jutsus in it are very powerful and access to them should be controlled. Like none of the jounins is angry because the others taught the gates, chidori or rasengan - they just think [now] that the genins aren't ready yet for such powerful jutsus. The main reason why the scroll is classified is - that was our result at that time - that the seal that was used on Naruto is described in it and by studying the sealing jutsu someone could find a way to undo it and unleash the demon fox.
I regard the choice of the word "forbidden" at that point as highly dramatic but with no actual meaning.
Orochimaru - see the one above.

6. Gates from Lee
- It is a last joker. Even Gai made a rule never to perform it unless "protecting someone important."
- Gai knows the gates, but his ability to perform isn't certain - although I feel he probably does know it. He didn't plan on teaching his group the gates, until they could perform the first lotus - which Lee was the only one that accomplished.
- Gai and Kakashi are rivals. Lee and Neji are rivals. Was Lee going to tell Neji about his gates and his "move to defeat" him? No. That would seem to point that Gai wouldn't tell Kakashi either.

First of all, teaching lotus is teaching gates. You didn't know that as you said later in these quotes, so no problem.
I remember Gai saying that he taught his group the lotus but Lee was the only one who could accomplish it. And I remember the image of the team besides these huge logs and only Lee's split in half. Lee has no reason to not tell Neji about the gates, Neji stood next to him when he did the initial lotus. And I refuse that house Hyuuga -- the masters of chakra flow manipulation -- do not know about the gates and their functions. Even if Neji is branch, he is Hinata's bodyguard and of what use is a good-for-nothing bodyguard?

7. Climb the mountain
- focus one's mind would just be a picture of their face .. like:
Sakura does "kai"
Sasuke does "foot concentration to catch Kunai"
Naruto does same to his feet to water walk.

In the manga it is just a picture of Kakashi's face with wide open eyes.

Initial lotus is a forceful way to open gate one? I didn't know that - but I'll check...

It is the primary reason for it. Although destructive itself, that damage is neglectible compared to secondary lotus. And to pave the road to that is the most important effect of it.

Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

He isn't in his prima any more [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] So maybe he needs to concentrate to do what he did with ease some years ago. Requiring an open gate would mean he decreased in a level that he should have a wheelchair by now.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: BakaShinji
...And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.

how do you know this?

5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina.

naruto's chakra and kyubi chakra have been mixing for years now. naruto really sucks, he alone cannot create that many kage bunshins.

Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.

sorry, this is nothing but an assumption.

8. Water clone
I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.

zabuza says: *while shows kakashi saying "i won't let my comrades die"* at that time... you had already copied my water clone no jutsu... you had your clone say those words... to attract my attention while the real you hid in the mist and watched me."

i think this is implying that kakashi copied zabuza's water clone no jutsu right then and there.

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: ...And at the time up till its banishment, Kakashi didn't have his Sharingan eye to help him expedite the learning process.
Mutatata: how do you know this?

ok i'm gonna spell it out.
#1. Kakashi was taught by the 4th. Kakashi is younger than 4th
#2. The 4th seals Kyuubi, fourth dies, naruto and sasuke and sakura are born this year.
#3. Scroll of Forbidden seals made forbidden (by the 4th post mortem)
#4. Everybody trains.
#5. FFW 8 years where Itachi kills off his clan.
#6. Kakashi gets a free eye.

eye happens after scroll banishment.

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: 5. 100 shadow clones w/o chakra.
Huge stamina is Naruto. He's just a chakra phr3ak. In the end it might be a product of being under Kyuubi influence - but it is not directly Kyuubi's chakra that gives Naruto his own large pool of stamina. Mutata: naruto's chakra and kyubi chakra have been mixing for years now. naruto really sucks, he alone cannot create that many kage bunshins.

He CAN create many kage bushins. Forest of death against the 3 (edit: rain) nins? Orochimaru had sealed kyuubi's mixing seal.

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
Baka: Anyways, if it was simple concentration for Kakashi, they wouldn't even need to show his face for it, let alone a close up of his brain. He is a jounin. The opening of a gate is the only thing I can think of that would require a Jounin to focus, especially if the Jounin had just learned it a week ago.
Mutata: sorry, this is nothing but an assumption.

My assumption at least has my line of reasoning. What is your assumption? And what is your line of reasoning?

8. Water clone
Baka: I would say in this case, the one exception, that Kakashi knew this jutsu before hand. In combo with genjutsu, he tries to pull off clairvoyance advantage on Zabuza. Tricky guy.
Mutatata: zabuza says: *while shows kakashi saying "i won't let my comrades die"* at that time... you had already copied my water clone no jutsu... you had your clone say those words... to attract my attention while the real you hid in the mist and watched me."
i think this is implying that kakashi copied zabuza's water clone no jutsu right then and there.

Sorry, I was talking about the waterblast ultimate technique. I was merely titling it after Elessar's format. You should have picked that up when I said Kakashi used Genjutsu in combo with the technique, since he didn't genjutsu when he copied the clone. But maybe you didn't. That's ok, mis-titling by me.

edit: BTW. this supports the point that Kakashi is indeed actively copying techniques, no matter how apparently weak the technique is (mizu vs kage), or who is doing it (naruto/lee). If he had already known Kage Buushin, why would he copy the lowly Mizu buushin, which only has 1/10 of the original user's power? /edit

Response to Elessar:
"Lee has no reason to not tell Neji about the gates, Neji stood next to him when he did the initial lotus."
He said it right before his final lotus on Gaara... "Neji, this was a move I was saving to defeat you - but I'm going to show it to you nonetheless." Who cares if Neji knew or not? Lee is working under a Theory of Mind assumption. He doesn't know that Neji knows, and it doesn't matter if he did. Lee wanted to save it as a secret finishing move on Neji.

"In the manga it is just a picture of Kakashi's face with wide open eyes." (about the cliffhanging)
Exactly part of my point that Kishimoto intends the audience to believe Kakashi is copying these jutsu's. They changed to showing Kakashi activating something in his brain. He fixed it up in the anime to instill clarity, but by the looks of this forum it is not.

On a similiar note: The change from Orochimaru's Kagebuushin from the Manga to Kawarimi in the Anime is also a purposeful move by the animators. ("As Raijin said, Orochimaru has used Kage Bunshins [in the manga. if you read my post it changed to kawarimi in the anime].")

and to add to that: The added scene with Kakashi watching Naruto pull off his first Kage Buushin in Kakashi's presence was another change from manga to anime.

summ of these points: Is no one seeing the obvious production changes?

"Requiring an open gate would mean he decreased in a level that he should have a wheelchair by now."
He's never opened a gate before. He used it for the first time on that cliff. That is why it required the effort.

and to Elessar: Could you explain difference between Tsukiyomi and Mange. I was under the impression it was merely different names for the same thing.

For Death BOOZ:
First points kudos. I agree.
Last point about Kage Buushin I disagree. No Gennins know about it save Naruto. No Chuunins know about it PERIOD. The only Jounin that knows about it is Hayate (from official jump statswhore magazine) and Ebisu. Not everyone knows about it, and there have been even attempts by the writers to reduce the number of people that know this jutsu. (i.e. Orochimaru's buushin got nerfed to a kawarimi.)

[Assertn]

orochimaru used kage bunshin in the manga?

[BakaShinji]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
orochimaru used kage bunshin in the manga?

yes, weird isn't it? someone posted a pic from a chinese manga. And i just read Troy's version - both say Kage buushin.

[Gods_Son]

At this point the argument between you and Mut@t@ really isn't getting anywhere, I don't see a point for either of you to continue trying to prove your point to the other. And yea, kage bunshin doesn't really suit Orochimaru in my opinion.

[Assertn]

well BakaShinji, apparently Mut@t@ does admit being wrong, judging by the adjustment in his sig
and did Baki actually say he didnt want kakashi copying his moves, or are you just confusing him with kabuto? cause i KNOW kabuto said that

can someone tell me what chapter oro used kage bunshin?