Kalean, I think Sasuke will surpass Itachi, it will just take a while, he's just a bit of a late bloomer. It would be a boring plot angle if he was already stronger, of course he's going to seem weaker at the start.
Just because he hasn't done the same things as what Itachi had done at that age doesn't mean he (Sasuke) can't ever surpass him. That's what this series is all about, overcoming the odds, the underdog winning.
I think I know precisely what I mean
when I say it's a schpadoinkle day
yeah, Sasuke will surpass Itachi eventually. Most of his life has been used on this one goal, he hasn't developed as fast as Itachi, but he has more drive to get stronger. If he was never gonna reach Itachi's level, then they might as well have killed him because he'd just be waste of life.
It's called supporting the premise with events that happened in the past, especially since history repeats itself. More importantly the thread wasn't about Lee fighting Sasuke. The thread is about Lee being on par with Kimimaro. The point is Lee is at least on par with Sasuke and Naruto, so if someone was to just say that Sasuke would have been a better matchup. Lee would be just as good of a match up since he's at least as good as sasuke or better.Originally posted by: CmDr_RavEn
I couldn't agree more. People keep bringing this up but it was so long ago. I don't want to make comparisons to DBZ but it's like saying "Radditz beat Goku so easily, so how could Goku have a chance against Cell?" Characters progress, but in this case Lee hasn't progressed as he's been out of it due to injury. Sasuke and Naruto have both gotten a hell of a lot stronger since their battle with Lee all that time ago.Originally posted by: Mut@t@
it was freaking clear that sasuke and naruto had no chances against ninjas like lee and neji, but now they have surpassed both of them. forget about what happened between lee and sasuke, it's totally irrelevant now, sasuke is a completely different character while lee remained the same (maybe gotten worse cuz he's still recovering).
But seriously, how has Sasuke gotten better? What new jutsus has he learned? Chidori would be too slow for Lee. Sasuke hasn't grown much except in the "self-fulfilling prophecy" area. Naruto has grown immensly. Lee is a worthy match for Kimimaro, that's the point.
if you compare the progress of lee with sasuke, then sasuke's progress outweighs lee's by a ton because of the fact that sasuke has achieved lee's speed without the weights in a month or so (or however long it was). has lee gotten ANY better since the last time he has fought? absolutely not. he has been in recovery mode ever since he got his bones wrecked. as a matter of fact, lee might have regressed from his former state. it'd be sooo stupid if he got better after receiving a life threatening surgery.
when sasuke and lee first fought sasuke sucked compared to lee, no doubt. the main reason why sasuke lost to lee is because sasuke, even though he had sharingan, could not keep up with lee's quickness and speed. but now, sasuke is at level 2 now. which just means that he has gotten stronger and faster since his fight with gaara. lee couldn't even hurt gaara, sasuke made him bleed and turn into his demon form.
the point is, lee is now overall weaker than sasuke and should not be on par with kimimaro even though he matches up well (since they are both taijutsu oriented).
as said before, its extremely hard to compare characters in Naruto, like it is in the real world. Out here, someone IS stronger/weaker then someone else, full stop, no arguement. In there, however, its like rock paper scissor - something cancels something else out. Like Lee versus Gaara, it was prob the worst matchup Lee could have had, thanks to Gaara`s unique ability. The whole reason they`re `on par` in this fight, is because they`re both taijutsu orientated, and Taijutsu is Lee`s forte. Tho, I dont actually think they`re ON PAR, thats a little too much, since Kimi has level 2, etc. But the point is, Lee has a great chance because of this matchup.
I don't like Lee's sudden mastery of the dubious 'drunken-fist' style. However, I can see how this match-up is perfect for Lee's, in this condition.
volume74 page9 ... Enough said. Discussion Close
Battle won =)
Rock lee > kimmimaro
im sure you ment volume 24, page 9. and what chapter
if your talkin about 211, if i recal all lee did was land a kick and that was it kimimaro hadn't even activated his cursed seal, now that he has, he will have a boost in chakra and the abilitiy to use his blood lime to a greater limit. the bones are damgerous and put lee in a bad spot.
Oppsie
I meant Chapter 79 page 8 hehe sorry for the confusion
What about it? It just explains iron fist and gentle fist.
not necessarilyOriginally posted by: kyuubi
If you can only go so far on will, Naruto would've been dead along time ago....Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
also keep in mind that the only reason why kimimaru is able to move about is because of his strong will to resist the conditions his body had recieved......you can only go so far on will alone though
naruto's will gives him power that is certainly within his grasp to reach, having the kyubi and all. But if naruto had no kyubi inside him, as well as a body that apparently suffered something major, then I dont think will alone will get him very far. Take lee's case for example: his will was so strong that even when he was unconscious, he was still standing to fight gaara......but do you think that if he actually DID attempt to fight gaara again that he would be able to do anything to him? There ARE physical limits that cant just be broken entirely
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
this doesn't prove shit.Originally posted by: I<3TenTen
Oppsie
I meant Chapter 79 page 8 hehe sorry for the confusion
Originally posted by: Mut@t@
if you compare the progress of lee with sasuke, then sasuke's progress outweighs lee's by a ton because of the fact that sasuke has achieved lee's speed without the weights in a month or so (or however long it was). has lee gotten ANY better since the last time he has fought? absolutely not. he has been in recovery mode ever since he got his bones wrecked. as a matter of fact, lee might have regressed from his former state. it'd be sooo stupid if he got better after receiving a life threatening surgery.
when sasuke and lee first fought sasuke sucked compared to lee, no doubt. the main reason why sasuke lost to lee is because sasuke, even though he had sharingan, could not keep up with lee's quickness and speed. but now, sasuke is at level 2 now. which just means that he has gotten stronger and faster since his fight with gaara. lee couldn't even hurt gaara, sasuke made him bleed and turn into his demon form.
the point is, lee is now overall weaker than sasuke and should not be on par with kimimaro even though he matches up well (since they are both taijutsu oriented).
1. Sasuke is somewhere near Lee's speed. We don't know how far or close that is. But since he isn't faster than Lee, it doesn't prove that he has progressed more than Lee. Granted, Sasuke trained his tail off to attain the speed he has now.
2. Yes Sasuke has a level 2 seal now, but according to data gathered on the other people who have level 2 seals. The level 2 seals don't amount to much. For example, Chouji beat big guy (don't know his name) by eating a red pill, Neji beat spider guy (level 2) with his jyuken technique, Akamaru is giving the twins (level 2) a run for there money, Shika is giving Tayuya (level 2) a lesson in education. Who's to say that Rock Lee can't beat Kimimaro by using the drunken fist style. Will it sound as absurd as using a red pill, or sending chakra up a spider wire, or pissing in someones eye, or using byaringan? The answer would be a resounding "no." It isn't less absurd than anything thats happened the last few episodes. The thing is, we've seen what a level 2 seal can do and its not all that impressive, besides we haven't seen what Sasuke can do in level 2 to make any assumptions yet.
3. It wouldn't be stupid at all if he got better after a life threatening situation. The situation presents a great opportunity for Kishimoto to give Lee more attributes (it is a manga after all). For example, during the operation, Tsunade discovered why Lee couldn't use chakra well and fixed that (kind of like how Jaraiya saw the seal that Oro put on Naruto and fixed it). That would make Lee less of a one dimensional character. This fight would make a great way to introduce the new Lee, Kimimaro can go level 2 and Lee can use nin and gen. I think that would be awsome, but if Lee stays one dimensional, that's Okay with me too. Drunken fist has already added to his arsenal of fist styles (taijutsu) and that alone makes him much more interesting.
it's absolutely stupid if lee became stronger (health-wise) the night after receiving such surgery which has a 50/50 chance of death. do you not understand this? it's a manga after all but still, this is so stupid. where is lee's recovery time? does he not need it? wtf? we might as well label lee as the strongest character in the story cuz he's just like goku, someone who becomes stronger from recovery or a fight. the way i see it, the only real way for lee to win is if kimimaro's illness fucks him up during the fight.
and letting lee use nin and gen would just equally stupid considering his reason for being in the show is that he is suppose to become a great ninja even with his inability to use nin and gen.
EDIT: for not being able to make assumptions on sasuke's lvl 2...am i the only person that realizes that sasuke is an overall better ninja than lee and will always be from now on? lee had his 15 min of fame early in the story, now it's more focused on sasuke and naruto. of course, lee is better at taijutsu than sasuke, but sasuke's nin and gen makes up for it. and about the speed thing...IF sasuke was about the same speed as lee was without the weights (it must be pretty close since you wouldn't say someones' abilities are about the same if they are far apart), then isn't it obvious that sasuke must've increased in all areas since he is at level 2 now? he had about the same speed with lee without the weights before using lvl 1 curse seal, so he's gotta be faster now with lvl 2.
EDIT: we're going pretty OT right now, so i'll add this. it seems that somehow lee and kimimaro are pretty evenly match (which i still think is stupid). lee looks as if he has NO discomfort from the surgery he received not too long ago and neither does kimimaro even with his illness. i can agree that either one of them losing is dumb because of all the hype (kimimaro) and the heroic rescue entrance (lee). but i still believe that kimimaro should win if it was gonna go one way or another.
and why don't the 11 guests who are reading this forum post something?
totally right, let me reinforce that.Originally posted by: Mut@t@
EDIT: for not being able to make assumptions on sasuke's lvl 2...am i the only person that realizes that sasuke is an overall better ninja than lee and will always be from now on? lee had his 15 min of fame early in the story, now it's more focused on sasuke and naruto. of course, lee is better at taijutsu than sasuke, but sasuke's nin and gen makes up for it. and about the speed thing...IF sasuke was about the same speed as lee was without the weights (it must be pretty close since you wouldn't say someones' abilities are about the same if they are far apart), then isn't it obvious that sasuke must've increased in all areas since he is at level 2 now? he had about the same speed with lee without the weights before using lvl 1 curse seal, so he's gotta be faster now with lvl 2.
When Sasuke just got the lvl 1 seal, he was able to carry both Sakura and Naruto, and to escape Zaku's ultimate air blow skill, without any troubles. that was when he was still 'slow'.
now, he's about the same speed of lee (about means almost equal, just like my cat is about the same speed of any other domestic house cat), and not only that he has a seal, it's also a lvl 2 seal, which gives you TEN times your original strentgh (so it probably includes speed), which means that Sasuke now is FASTER than every other genin, and most of the jounins...
I'd like to say once again that Lee's appearence was completly uncalled for, you can say he's there to fight Kimimaru and give Naruto an option to fight Sasuke, but then you make Kimimaru unrellevent, since he already is messing up the plotline, and if he loses here, it means that the story could be the same if Sasuke escaped while Tayuya was holding the bucket and Shikamaru would have been the one to order Naruto to go after Sasuke.
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I hope you don't really think that they actually opened (physically cutting) Lee up for this operation, because that just isn't the case. It is more likely that Lady Tsunade just put her palms upon Lee's back and performed somekind of surgery that way. You know, like they normally do in mangas (scalpel punches, etc). That's what enables the fast recovery time.
Sasuke doesn't have nin except for the katon thing and absolutely no genjutsu (did you man lack of nin and gen). How does this make up for lack of speed?
Hey, you're allowed to think that it's stupid.
But I think that the best way to speed up the story line was to bring in Rock Lee.
1. We won't have a separate story line about Rock Lee's operation.
2. The battle free's up Naruto. Rock Lee fights Kimimaro thus allowing Naruto to fight/recapture Sasuke. This way we won't see a long battle between Naruto and Kimimaro, and then another one between Naruto and Sasuke.
3. Someone else must of came with Rock Lee, like Hinata or Shino. They might attempt to help Shika or Kiba. This makes those fights more interesting and believable. Because we can't all believe that level 2 seals are that weak.
Answer to post below:
1. Those ninjutsu moves are the basics. That's the whole point, Sasuke doesn't have any strong ninjutsu except for the fire thing (katon something) and chidori.
2. Exactly, long recovery time, do you want to see Sakura bring Lee a flower for the next ten or so episodes. Remember, if they didn't have to cut Lee open, then there's no reason for not having a short recovery. It's believable in manga terms. Gets Rock Lee up and running.
3. Yes Tayuya holding the bucket would have been simpler, but that leaves the story telling of Lee's operation and recovery. We don't want that; at least I don't.
4. That's because maybe the level 2 seals aren't as strong as you expected it to be. If genins can take out level 2 seals, then Sasuke isn't a match for Naruto at all.
5. Kishimoto squats on his readers all the time. What happens is that there may be so many things that have happened that the writers truly don't remember. So then they write about something that shouldn't be plausible.
The biggest one for me is how the hell can Oro say that Itachi is stronger than himself. When everything that we've seen would say otherwise. I know that the plot is to have Sasuke kill off Itachi and in order to avoid the question, "Why doesn't Oro just take Itachi's body, he is far better than Sasuke?" The writers put in a qoute "he is stronger than myself." That's Kishimoto shitting on readers. He could have came up with some other excuse, because when compared, Oro is way stronger than Itachi.
Or what about the existence of Hunter Nins. Why didn't Konoha send out Hunter Nins for Sasuke? Why did Kishimoto even explain the purpose of Hunter Nins, if he wasn't going to use them. That's Kishimoto shitting on readers.
Or what about Shika, I don't care how smart you are. If you don't have the skills to go along with the brains, or if you have the skills but don't have the brains. You're as good as dead, if you fight someone just fairly strong.
So Kishimoto shits on us all the time.
FYI, Mutato
Either the genins suck or they're powerful. You can't have it both ways. If they are indeed powerful as you have suggested in your post, and Lee is a genin, then according to your own statement; Lee is a match (on par) with Kimimaro.
You missed out some points...
Tsunde herself said it's a risky operation (50% chances of death, with the best doctoer) and that there'll be some long recovery time... the guy has bone shards in his SPINE, it's not just a simple operation, even for Tsunde.
An operation arc? aren't you confusing this with ER? showing us Lee after the operation would take 2 pages, and then rehablition would take another few, which is nothing compared for the buildup of the operation (Gai's promise to kill himself if the operationf fails, etc etc).
Sasuke has all the flame jutsus, clones, henge (to hide himself), kawamiri (to create openings, which would be great cuz he's the same speed as Lee and has the sharingan), and he probably knows a few basic genjutsu (though we haven't seen any yet, since Kishimoto doesn't draw many genjutsu skills).
You say that Lee is there to allow Naruto to fight Sasuke? then why is Kimimaru there? he already wrecked up the story (why didn't he go with the sound four? why didn't he participate in the raid on the leaf? if he's that sick and Oro has other options, then Oro should've discarded him just like what he did to the sound trio) and has no messge or moral theme... Having Sauke escape while Tayuya held the bucket would have been much simpler, it would still be the same, Sasuke against Naruto and Tayuya against Shikamaru...
I'm more concerned about the fact that the sound four even need to rellay on the lvl 2 seals to beat assholes like Kiba and weaklings like Shikamaru, Orochimaru only gives the seal to guys he sees poteniteal in (like Sasuke), so they must have been exceptional ninjas, so they should have gotten rid of any not-cool\not-suiciding Genin (or chunin, in some cases) without resorting to any seal... I mean, come on! i can handle chouji and Neji winning (one by burninng out his life for strengh and one by pure startegy), but Kiba should've been dead in the first phace of the battle, and shikamaru should stop his IQ increase for a while (if he admmited that he couldn't beat Naruto, a complete idiot with barly one move, then there's no way he could beat a suprior ninja like Tayuya).
BTW: it might seem that i hate Lee, Shikamaru and Kiba, but in fact, i really like Shikamaru and Lee, and my deathwish concerning Kiba isn't becuase i hate him, it's becuase it'd be more logical for him to die now...
EDIT: Bolded out the first part, if Tsunde said it's a complicated opertaion with a long recovery time, then it should be one, otherwise, Kishimoto is shitting at his readeres, just like saying "remember all those things i've focused so much about in previous chapters and got you all to discuss them? guess what, from now on, they don't exist anymore!"
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of course i don't mean an actual surgery...
rock lee is suppose to have went through a lot of rehabilitation considering it's a spinal injury but he didn't, that's what i find stupid. after his surgery, he was up and ready to fight kimimaro who's suppose to be a fucking bad ass.
also, you completely misunderstood me. i think you're thinking as if i was putting sasuke and lee in a fight scenario. but i'm just comparing their attributes (after all, this is about kimimaro vs lee). sasuke does have a limited amount of ninjutsus but that's still more than what lee has. i don't think we have seen sasuke do a genjutsu before but we know that he can see through them. how does this make up for lack of speed? it doesn't actually since in the post you're responding to i said it makes up for lee's higher skill in taijutsu NOT his speed...
but what makes up for sasuke's "lack of speed?" sasuke's lvl 2. the fact that sasuke is about the same speed as lee without his weight before using level 1 curse seal tells us that level 2 can only make him faster.
so inconclusion, sasuke is faster and knows more about ninjutsu and genjutsu, which makes him an overall better ninja. that is all i've been trying to say.
now, let me ask you. who do you think should win, kimimaro or lee? consider everything from amount of hype to skills.
EDIT:
just because they are mere genins that does not mean that they aren't strong. the genins are actually part of the main story line and suppose to be strong. having them get wiped out with ease is pointless.Originally posted by: hiten mitsurugi
4. That's because maybe the level 2 seals aren't as strong as you expected it to be. If genins can take out level 2 seals, then Sasuke isn't a match for Naruto at all.
genins like naruto, kiba, neji, and maybe chouji have the genin titles but are definitely worthy of being at chuunin if you ignore their leadership abilities.
i completely agree.Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
EDIT: Bolded out the first part, if Tsunde said it's a complicated opertaion with a long recovery time, then it should be one, otherwise, Kishimoto is shitting at his readeres, just like saying "remember all those things i've focused so much about in previous chapters and got you all to discuss them? guess what, from now on, they don't exist anymore!"
I think Lee will win. Not becaues he beat Kimimaro outright, but because Kimi has ailing health.
I would like to point out that if Shizune will suddenly come out and save the dying genins, it would also be stupid...
When she saw the two wounded\half dead ninjas from her team, she said that they should bring them to the hospital right away, right? then why the hell would she leave them to go look for others? espically when she doesn't know about the genin team yet, half of her team is near death, and the healthy half is low on chackra, tired from the mission, and is needed to protect and escort the two wounded ones...
there's no reasonable explenation for her to do anything BUT take care of her team, and there's no way that she'll find the genins on her way back, since the genins started to fight after the Sound four kicked those jounins asses...
and seeing how the leaf village is at least a few hours away from them, i don't think that the dying genins would be able to live long enough for another medical team to arrive from the village, so I think it's pretty obvious that at least Chouji is done for, and perhaps also Neji (though i hope not), and by the closeup on Kiba's water drops, i guess that Sakon is after him to finish the job of killing Dogboy...
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