I don't think we have any filled breads here either.
whole wheat, whole grain, spelt bread... baguettes and pita-breads and challah bread, but not anything that comes with flavour fillings.
we do have bread-based pastries (sweet and not-sweet).
I don't think we have any filled breads here either.
whole wheat, whole grain, spelt bread... baguettes and pita-breads and challah bread, but not anything that comes with flavour fillings.
we do have bread-based pastries (sweet and not-sweet).
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I think filled breads are more of an Asian thing, even including South and South East Asia.
Japan has anpan, curry pan, cream pan, etc.
Hong Kong has pineapple bun, sausage bun, coconut bun, etc.
Taiwan has taro buns, pork floss buns, black pepper buns, etc.
China has steamed buns, xian bing, shen jiang baos, etc.
Philippines has coconut bread, asado roll, corned beef bread, etc.
India has a parathas, bread pakodas, kulchas, etc.
All of these are considered breads and are stuffed with savory or sweet fillings.
Peace.
That's the issue, though: All (most?) of those aren't breads. They're snacks. They're 1-portion, handheld foods that you pick up and eat whole in one session.Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
A bread is something big that you cut off slices from, the stays with you for a couple days and that is a foundation for making dishes from it, whether that's a quick marmelade slice, a sandwhich, as a side for some main dish, or even as an ingredient for a proper main dish.
All those asian "breads" are really buns, intended for instant consumption. That's not the philosophy of bread.
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
It is bread according to the most popular definition in English, at least:
bread
/bred/
noun
1.
food made of flour, water, and yeast or another leavening agent, mixed together and baked.
"a loaf of bread"
Looks like as long as it has these components, it is bread. Buns, rolls, etc. fall under the umbrella of bread.
Your definition of "A bread is something big that you cut off slices from, the stays with you for a couple days and that is a foundation for making dishes from it," is a loaf of bread.
Peace.
So...American bread is bread in its ideal form? The perfect center of sweetened with otherwise unnecessary ingredients and packed with so many preservatives and stabilizers that a loaf of pre-sliced bread can last for over a month without going hard, stale, or developing mold. No other country can boast such longevity and still dare to call it bread.
the key word is "mixed together".
It's not "bread" if it's not mixed together but separated.. or rather it's "bread with X".
Curry buns are actually filled with curry. So it's not mixed together.
Melon bread on the other hand can be considered bread, although we Germans wouldn't eat it as such, but consider it a snack... but I'm sure asians don't put anything on it either.
In Germany we have "filled bread" as well, it's rather new, but it's not bread. "Handbrot" for example.
I guess the closest, but still different to actual bread would be "Kräuterbaguette", which is basically a variation of garlic bread, directly translated it means "herb bread/baguette" but I'm not sure if that's actually a thing elsewhere?
Either way, if you ignore the mixed together part:
You may as well call a wellington bread, or crossaints bread if you consider curry buns as "bread"
Or Pizza, which includes bread, but isn't classified as "bread"-bread. If that makes sense.
Btw... I've never tasted Melonpan, but what I THINK they'll taste similar to is
"Streuselbrötchen".
Which is awesome soft, sweet bakery in form of Brötchen/bread, which are snacks.
And then there is Milchbrötchen, which is different but also sweet and soft, but also just a snack.
edit:
If I'm not mistaken, to be considered bread, you are actually only allowed to have X% amount of fats and sugar vs wheat ratio. Something like that.
That's why crossaints is pastry and not bread, too much fat. (Same with donuts)
Last edited by KrayZ33; Wed, 12-04-2024 at 06:29 AM.
Buns aren't bread.
There's bread. And there's buns. Buns are for immediate consumption for a single person. Bread is there to stay.
That's why call bread "Brot" in Germany, and buns are "Semmeln". Different things.
Edit 1: WTF, Kray is German, too?!
Fake-Edit 2: WTF, he says "Brötchen" instead of "Semmel". OF COURSE >_>
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
I said the English definition, since we are conversing in English and discussing definitions. I'm sure Germans have a different way of defining bread, just like Asians do.
Croissants are not bread due to the high amount of fat. Those are considered pastries even in English. However, the items I did mention do not fall into the pastry category. They are simply stuffed bread.
As for melon pan, while the outside is a cookie dough crust, the inside is plain bread.
@Krayz - The mixed together part of the definition refers specifically to the "flour, water, and yeast or another leavening agent," not other ingredients that many breads do have.
I'm not trying to redefine anything by the way. Just google "Is melon pan bread?" and it says yes. BTW, pan in Japan literally means bread, exemplifying what I said was interesting, which is "Different cultures define foods differently."
To clarify, I understand Germans define bread differently, and that is also absolutely valid.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 12-04-2024 at 09:56 AM.
Peace.
Not sure if we are talking about two different things here.@Krayz - The mixed together part of the definition refers specifically to the "flour, water, and yeast or another leavening agent," not other ingredients that many breads do have.
The definition is about how the dough is created.
Curry buns (they are buns anyway, not bread) are part bread + something else. Thus no longer bread.
Just like a pizza is part bread + something else.
It's the *exact* same thing with that dish.
You don't call pizza "bread" or a "bun", do you?
As mentioned, Melon buns probably taste similar to Streuselbrötchen, which is basically sweet bread.
Those at least are buns, and they can technically be made as bread although you wouldn't do that.
Even the english language seperates breads from buns btw.
With the same definition MFauli gave.
Not that it's important or anything. (I consider this discussion a meme)
Last edited by KrayZ33; Wed, 12-04-2024 at 02:42 PM.
I went through this before, but in English, buns are under the larger umbrella of bread. Wikipedia for Bun starts with this: "A bun is a type of bread roll, typically filled with savory fillings (for example hamburger)."
And this is the wikipedia entry for bread roll (bolding mine):
"A bread roll is a small, often round loaf of bread served as a meal accompaniment (eaten plain or with butter). A roll can be served and eaten whole or cut transversely and dressed with filling between the two halves. Rolls are also commonly used to make sandwiches similar to those produced using slices of bread. A bun is a small, sometimes sweet, bread, or bread roll. Though they come in many shapes and sizes, they are most commonly hand-sized or smaller, with a round top and flat bottom."
So in English, it is not a separate thing but more of a subclass.
As for the mixed together thing, this is what I was referring to:
image.png
The mixed together in the dictionary quote I wrote is specifically referring to the "flour, water, and yeast or another leavening agent," part of the definition. It is unrelated to what you wrote about having other stuff mixed in, like stuffing, etc. To be clear, that definition does not disqualify anything just because it isn't mixed together. It is simply specifying that the flour, water, and yeast/leavening agent are mixed.
As for pizza, the dough/crust is technically bread, but as a whole it is not. It is simply a pizza, just like how a hamburger has a bun, which is a bread in English as I specified above, but is not bread, and is instead called a hamburger.
I get why this can get confusing with the stuffed breads. The difference is kind of arbitrary, since even a calzone, which is essentially a stuffed bread dough, is NOT considered bread. English is super messy that way. To be clear, I am not saying this is the ideal state of bread definition, especially considering how confusing it can be, but it is indeed the current state. It is an observation on my part, not a prescription.
I imagine Germans have a much better and clearer classification, as you guys mentioned.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 12-04-2024 at 02:55 PM.
Peace.
In Germany, the umbrella term would probably be "pastry". Bread and buns are both pastry. But a bread is not a bun nor vice versa.
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
This is interesting, especially with you two Germans chiming in.
I've got a German colleague who got onto the topic of baking one time and said he wanted some bread. I directed him to the hospital cafeteria and he said that wasn't real bread. I didn't pursue.
I don't have any real understanding of bread and my own understanding is based on the Chinese character bao (包), and bread is just called 麵包 (wheat bao). To me, wheat + water + make it rise = some type of bread, but I get that this is a very basic understanding. Wiki link for chinese bao calls it a bun, which I also agree with.
What I don't quite get, is that the difference between bun and bread is apparently size and number of servings? So if I just made a basketball sized bun, that's now bread?
Pizza dough apparently has higher gluten than regular bread dough.
And when I was young, we had this thing at the supermarket called Pizza Bread, which was actually some toppings that you'd commonly find on pizzas placed on a bun.
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So, that's where the Finnish "sämpylä" comes from. Interesting. In Finnish this refers to single-portion bread that isn't sweet and doesn't contain anything extra, like filling. The dough is similar to bread dough, they are just baked small. If it's sweet, it's not bread in Finnish anymore, it's called "pulla". "Pulla" is also yeast leavened, but it contains added sugar, fat, and may be filled with different sorts of flavours, like vanilla, cinnamon, etc. It's also often rolled for a fancier structure and to spread the possible filling. A cinnamon roll is a good example of "pulla". As far as the non-sweet proper bread in Finnish extends, you can mix stuff like seeds or crushed nuts into the dough, adding some nutritional value to the bread. Most bread sold contain only simple flour, though.
All in all, MFauli's German definition of bread sounds fitting, which is not surprising considering the history of Europe.
Much of this whole discussion seems to derive from the inaccurate nature of the English language. The number of words in English is huge, as one would expect from a language of the former largest empire in the world and that still is the main language of trade, technology, and science. Yet at the same time, the English doesn't really bother to be accurate at all with many things. Every baking product that's leavened (usually with yeast, I'd assume, but I bet that's not a strict requirement either) is lazily called bread.
My understanding from my experience, ie my limited opinion and regional culture:
-bread is a base product from flour/salt/water and added yeast (also works with naturally occurring yeast, but longer, more difficult,,more risks)
-Comes in many sizes and shapes for many uses/occasions and also regional customs
-uses many types of flours and mixes.
Then you have special breads: seeds, or color of the flour. Usually the more refined the flour, the whiter and less tasty the bread.
And then you have variations with spices, bits of meat and many more variations coming with bread composed names or totally dedicated names
As for melon pan, sorry but this is a cake... or a variation of one,
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What is up with Europeans and imposing your food ideas and definitions on everyone else lol.
Instead of "In France, melon pan is considered a cake, definitely not bread," you say "As for melon pan, sorry but this is a cake... or a variation of one."
@Kraco - It's not just English, that just so happened to be the language we are using here. Asian breads, which is where this all started, definitely consider their buns, stuffed flatbreads, rolls, etc. as bread.
I just remembered Mexico also has a ton of sweet buns or rolls they call bread. Bread in Spanish is Pan, just like Japan, even though Japan got their word from the Portugese word pao. This now reminds me that Pão de queijo, my favorite Brazilian cheese roll, literally has bread in its name.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Thu, 12-05-2024 at 05:03 PM.
Peace.
Just for full disclosure:
While I think "Semmel" should be the proper German word for "bun", there's various synonyms depending on which region of Germany you are in. So known German words for "bun" that I know and all mean the same are:
- Semmel
- Schrippe
- Wecken
- Brötchen
- and probably more
However, I have a big disdain against the term "Brötchen", because it's just a cutification of the word "Brot" which is "bread" in German. And there's no need to use a cutified word when we have proper words for distinct things. We don't say "Autochen" to small cars, either.
Not sure if this is easily understood in English, is there cute version for English words that consists of a simple affix?
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
No, we use mini-, a prefix. I guess some use the suffix -ling, like duckling, but it is used in very limited ways. You don't say breadling, for example.
Peace.
I suppose because bread is such a big deal in Europe? Like rice is in much of Asia.
East Asia might not have emphasized bread quite as much as Europe, I suppose. China has had wheat for a long, long time, since prehistory, apparently, but the cuisines of China are so varied that I reckon the European sort of bread wasn't anything remarkable in comparison to everything else, assuming it existed there. Japanese masses only began to consume it more during the 20th century, by the looks of it.
A fair point about Spanish and Portuguese. I don't speak them, so I didn't think so far, only staring at English since the dicussing had turned to it when I joined. Europeans disagreeing with each other is the most natural thing in the world, though.
Edit: One particular thing to mention, I'd say, is that sweet bread would not have been overly abundant in the historical times. Honey was basically the only source of excessive sweetness before industrial sugar. There's only so much honey common people in the distant past would have had available. In that sense, overly sweet "bread" is quite a modern thing, mostly, apart from the experiments among the aristocracy. Otherwise it would have been up to fruits and berries to taste sweetness.
Last edited by Kraco; Fri, 12-06-2024 at 03:03 AM.
Sorry I forgot a smiley with my poke :-)
And all of it was my limited opinion. As for melon pan, the sugar contents, texture and overall taste and eating experience is in my pastries/desserts category.
But other people or cultures are free to categorize otherwise.
I'm both French from my father and Portuguese from my mother: true, Portuguese people like their sugar everywhere :-). Segafredo even coats their coffee beans with sugar when roasting.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
The comment about Europeans was in jest, as well. I know you of all people aren't German.
Peace.
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