Chainsaw Man

[MFauli]

Much better 2nd episode. While I still think Denji's entire situation makes no sense and this episode actually increased the "no" here (the world IS just like our's, after all, minus the devil stuff, so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help? Ugh), his singlemindedness is quite entertaining. And I can relate with him, lol, what a grand goal he has in mind!!1

My biggest gripe with the series would be that it just has this "Japanese Live-Action" weirdness to it, something that I also experienced with Durararara and Baccano. At least the story is easier to follow in Chainsawman, so it's not as off-putting.

Denji actually feeling the pain when he uses his own chainsaws is fucked up, btw.

Edit: Power just looks like a Zero Two-knockoff, lol. She is fun, though, yes.

[DarthEnderX]

so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help?

Probably, like most abused kids, didn't know who to ask.

He's dumb as shit, and the only people he regularly interacts with are exploiting him.

[MFauli]

Probably, like most abused kids, didn't know who to ask.

He's dumb as shit, and the only people he regularly interacts with are exploiting him.

Look, Darth, I don't wanna discuss this with you, because any consequent reply will be met with insults and ridicule.

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?" is what I'd like to ask, but then you, and maybe others too, will attack me again a la "how dare you ask, you dumb shit!". Considering how we saw a totally grounded, realistic city this episode with normal ass police officers, it just makes me question Denji's past even more. He must have been straight up snatched from mafia before he had a chance to seek help ... except we saw how the mafia left him be, just telling him "you go get that money, dun care how".

It's weird and not my fault if the anime thinks it can save an explaining flashback for later.

Anyway, other than that, I'm getting into the series, it's fun to watch. Even though I wish Denji didn't let himself abuse by others so much. He reminds me somewhat of the electric boy from Boku no Hero Academia after he uses his electric powers.

[KrayZ33]

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?" is what I'd like to ask, but then you, and maybe others too, will attack me again a la "how dare you ask, you dumb shit!". Considering how we saw a totally grounded, realistic city this episode with normal ass police officers, it just makes me question Denji's past even more. He must have been straight up snatched from mafia before he had a chance to seek help ... except we saw how the mafia left him be, just telling him "you go get that money, dun care how".

It's weird and not my fault if the anime thinks it can save an explaining flashback for later.

Well... it's not like "the anime thinks" it can save it for later, because it absolutely can.
The question is why you need it to be explained right now to the point were you feel "frustrated" by it if you aren't getting your answer spoon fed.
It would add absolutely nothing to the show as of right now and whatever reason given later, if there even is one, could potentially enrich the way the story is or was told in hindsight.

I have no idea why it's so difficult for you to relate to his situation.
As if it's the first time some kid is being extorted even though "hE cOuLd hAvE gOnE tO tHe PoLiCE".

"why didn't the kid tell someone that she got raped by this dude, silly kid" - said no one ever in real life either. Or rather, only absolute idiots that have no idea about anything would say something like that.
So why should it be any different in fiction.

[MFauli]

Well... it's not like "the anime thinks" it can save it for later, because it absolutely can.
The question is why you need it to be explained right now to the point were you feel "frustrated" by it if you aren't getting your answer spoon fed.
It would add absolutely nothing to the show as of right now and whatever reason given later, if there even is one, could potentially enrich the way the story is or was told in hindsight.

I have no idea why it's so difficult for you to relate to his situation.
As if it's the first time some kid is being extorted even though "hE cOuLd hAvE gOnE tO tHe PoLiCE".

"why didn't the kid tell someone that she got raped by this dude, silly kid" - said no one ever in real life either. Or rather, only absolute idiots that have no idea about anything would say something like that.
So why should it be any different in fiction.

I'm not frustrated or upset about the anime. I'm frustrated that I can't criticize that with one sentence here without everyone jumping at me.

[DarthEnderX]

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?" is what I'd like to ask, but then you, and maybe others too, will attack me again a la "how dare you ask, you dumb shit!". Considering how we saw a totally grounded, realistic city this episode with normal ass police officers, it just makes me question Denji's past even more. He must have been straight up snatched from mafia before he had a chance to seek help ... except we saw how the mafia left him be, just telling him "you go get that money, dun care how".

I think the issue here is that you are treating this as unrealistic, when, other than the devil thing, this is something that literally happens all the time in the real world.

Youths getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime organizations is a real thing that happens. So when your question is "Why don't they just do this?" my answer is to just point to those real-world instances and go "I dunno. Ask them I guess?"

Like, 9-times-out-of-10, the answer to "Why didn't you go to the police?" is "Because they said they'd kill me if I did and I believed them."

I mean, he spent most of his life living in a shack. It's not like he's watched a bunch of Law & Order.

I'm frustrated that I can't criticize that with one sentence here without everyone jumping at me.

I mean, you put a question mark at the end of the sentence. That implies that you wanted an answer.

[KrayZ33]

I'm not frustrated or upset about the anime. I'm frustrated that I can't criticize that with one sentence here without everyone jumping at me.

Not mentally frustrated but frustrated by how it's handled in the show

(the world IS just like our's, after all, minus the devil stuff, so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help? Ugh)

like here for example.
The question itself isn't the problem, your frustration about it is, because it's completely "normal" for people to act like this.
So obviously you can't just criticize it with one sentence like that, because it's what we call "weltfremd"

"Just don't be oppressed, 4 head"

[Buffalobiian]

"I can tolerate crazy as long as they're hot"

That's youth speaking.

[fireheart]

I think the issue here is that you are treating this as unrealistic, when, other than the devil thing, this is something that literally happens all the time in the real world.

Youths getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime organizations is a real thing that happens. So when your question is "Why don't they just do this?" my answer is to just point to those real-world instances and go "I dunno. Ask them I guess?"

Like, 9-times-out-of-10, the answer to "Why didn't you go to the police?" is "Because they said they'd kill me if I did and I believed them."

I mean, he spent most of his life living in a shack. It's not like he's watched a bunch of Law & Order.

I mean, you put a question mark at the end of the sentence. That implies that you wanted an answer.

My personal opinion on Mfauli is that it seems he has a harder time with suspension of disbelief, which may or may not impact how much he enjoys whatever anime we discuss. Sometimes I think it's silly for whatever reason but I've had this issue with some shows as well for example 'Your lie in April'. It made the show worse for me since I couldn't just flip a switch to suspend my disbelief and immerse myself in comparison to everyone else who seemed to have loved that show.

Another thing I can think of is how much people believe in the government/police varies impacts our view of how likely this is to happen. So while I don't doubt it could happen I'm more with Mfauli on this, you expect me to believe that the government/social service helped him bury his dad and then didn't try to place him with a foster parent/orphanage? In modern Japan? This isn't a youth getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime, it's a child that turned into an orphan which should by default be protected by the government/child protection service/social service/whoever handles these kinds of thing.

Though I can close my eyes to it and just accept that it happened in this show to make Denji have a pitiful and sad background while giving him an excuse to be stupid/lacking. But if Mfauli never brought it up I wouldn't have thought about it at all and just accepted it and in turn never come to the conclusion that the issue isn't Denji, it's that the government didn't try to help him and was ok with an orphan living on the street right after their one and only guardian died.

Blaming it on Denji however is victim blaming, blaming all the people who should have helped and should have prevented a child from ending up in that situation however is fair game imo. And should something like this happen in a place like Japan it's 100% the government failing to help vulnerable children they should have been protecting.

[MFauli]

My personal opinion on Mfauli is that it seems he has a harder time with suspension of disbelief, which may or may not impact how much he enjoys whatever anime we discuss. Sometimes I think it's silly for whatever reason but I've had this issue with some shows as well for example 'Your lie in April'. It made the show worse for me since I couldn't just flip a switch to suspend my disbelief and immerse myself in comparison to everyone else who seemed to have loved that show.

Another thing I can think of is how much people believe in the government/police varies impacts our view of how likely this is to happen. So while I don't doubt it could happen I'm more with Mfauli on this, you expect me to believe that the government/social service helped him bury his dad and then didn't try to place him with a foster parent/orphanage? In modern Japan? This isn't a youth getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime, it's a child that turned into an orphan which should by default be protected by the government/child protection service/social service/whoever handles these kinds of thing.

Though I can close my eyes to it and just accept that it happened in this show to make Denji have a pitiful and sad background while giving him an excuse to be stupid/lacking. But if Mfauli never brought it up I wouldn't have thought about it at all and just accepted it and in turn never come to the conclusion that the issue isn't Denji, it's that the government didn't try to help him and was ok with an orphan living on the street right after their one and only guardian died.

Blaming it on Denji however is victim blaming, blaming all the people who should have helped and should have prevented a child from ending up in that situation however is fair game imo. And should something like this happen in a place like Japan it's 100% the government failing to help vulnerable children they should have been protecting.

Thank you for understanding my pov.

And as for the "lack of supsense of disbelief": I accept that most anime are stupid bs. When I watch Boku no Hero Academia, I don't expect anything smart, rational or thing of consequence. It's a super shallow shounen-container anime that gives an excuse to throw heroes and villains at each other.

But Chainsaw Man received so much hype, has this somewhat more realistic artstyle, the cool opening ... it all made me think "hey, this is gonna be one of those special anime that really won't rely on BS". And then I instantly am supposed to believe that the government left a little boy by himself. That this boy was okay with selling a kidney and a testicle? That wasn't what I had expected at all.

Now that I'm halfway back to "alright, this is typical shounen bs", but of relatively higher quality, I can enjoy it better. But to understand why I didn't like it immediately, I think that's a fair demand.

[fireheart]

Thank you for understanding my pov.

You're welcome, but do note while I agree with what you're trying to say I also disagree since you seem to think the onus is on Denji, which is as I said victim blaming and my impression is that it's the issue the others have with what you've been saying. It should imo be on the government to prevent something like that from happening, the responsibility is never on the children to seek out help first after their guardian dies.

[Kraco]

I wonder what Makima's truth really is. She said she expects Denji to work happily for the agency, and if he doesn't, he will be disposed of, period. On the other hand, if that was all she cared about, it's unlikely she would go out of her way to employ a half-devil and a fiend. While I do feel like she's very good at manipulating simpler people, like Denji, I can't help but feel she does want to blur the simple good-evil distinction most of the world likely subscribes to. Especially in Japan, it seems impossible her own reputation and future career wouldn't be damaged if her experimentations with the more dubious characters as hunters failed. Is she doing that out of pure goodwill or because she herself is already somehow compromised and doesn't have a choice? Her gentle but ruthless behavior could be explained by both alternatives.

Denji really is a simpleton, but his goals are very honest, haha.

[MFauli]

You're welcome, but do note while I agree with what you're trying to say I also disagree since you seem to think the onus is on Denji, which is as I said victim blaming and my impression is that it's the issue the others have with what you've been saying. It should imo be on the government to prevent something like that from happening, the responsibility is never on the children to seek out help first after their guardian dies.

Huh? From my first reaction I've been criticizing why nobody helped young Denji. I THEN put the onus on adult Denji, because he just accepted the situation. And really, I still can't imagine a situation where a guy/boy would casually sell one of his balls. They should have shown a quick montage of the Mafia forcing him to that shit, would have helped a lot.

[fireheart]

Huh? From my first reaction I've been criticizing why nobody helped young Denji. I THEN put the onus on adult Denji, because he just accepted the situation. And really, I still can't imagine a situation where a guy/boy would casually sell one of his balls. They should have shown a quick montage of the Mafia forcing him to that shit, would have helped a lot.

In chronological order:

Why didn't he run away?

When I started watching this episode 1, I just kept thinking "why isn't he going to the police?", "why isn't he going to the government to be put in an institution for orphans?" and "why does he not run away? Yakuza won't be able to find some random kid".

(the world IS just like our's, after all, minus the devil stuff, so why didn't a parent-less kid seek help? Ugh)

The only one I see you putting the onus on someone else is the quote below, but even then it's not on the government but on random people and in the same post you still put onus on Denji.

"Why did he not ask anyone for help? Why did nobody report to the police?"

It might not have been what you intended but if you look at the quotes it looks like you put 90-100% of the responsibility on Denji for being in a shitty situation from the start. Again I agree that it's hard to believe the situation he found himself in as a child with zero support, but I still think the onus was never on Denji regardless of what age he currently is in the anime because again it's been going on since he was a child and he's still the victim. I'm pretty sure he's suppose to still be a teen not an adult, an anime can't have an adult as the main protagonist (half sarcasm half serious).

Also have you never heard of the teen that sold his kidney to buy an iPhone/iPad? He was also quoted saying "Why do I need two kidneys? One is enough.". Finally selling organs is fairly standard threat from mobs in fiction when it comes to paying back debts.

[David75]

I suspect Makima is not 100% human, for the simple reason she can smell devils.
As of yet I categorize her as a highly manipulative person. I'd like to be able to like her, but she's way too dangerous for that.

[fireheart]

I wonder what Makima's truth really is. She said she expects Denji to work happily for the agency, and if he doesn't, he will be disposed of, period. On the other hand, if that was all she cared about, it's unlikely she would go out of her way to employ a half-devil and a fiend. While I do feel like she's very good at manipulating simpler people, like Denji, I can't help but feel she does want to blur the simple good-evil distinction most of the world likely subscribes to. Especially in Japan, it seems impossible her own reputation and future career wouldn't be damaged if her experimentations with the more dubious characters as hunters failed. Is she doing that out of pure goodwill or because she herself is already somehow compromised and doesn't have a choice? Her gentle but ruthless behavior could be explained by both alternatives.

Denji really is a simpleton, but his goals are very honest, haha.

Maybe I'm not reading enough into this but I think the lines were blurred from the start with contracted devils, since they're already using "evil" to eradicate "evil" from the start. Unless I missed any information about devil hunters who do not use any special powers at all or holy powers.

As for her reason it feels like she just want a usable tool, she might still sympathize with him but still a tool.

[DarthEnderX]

Another thing I can think of is how much people believe in the government/police varies impacts our view of how likely this is to happen. So while I don't doubt it could happen I'm more with Mfauli on this, you expect me to believe that the government/social service helped him bury his dad and then didn't try to place him with a foster parent/orphanage? In modern Japan? This isn't a youth getting trafficked into servitude to organized crime, it's a child that turned into an orphan which should by default be protected by the government/child protection service/social service/whoever handles these kinds of thing.

Human trafficking and "debt collection" are 2 rackets the yakuza are literally involved in. In modern japan.

Anime that portray Japan as a pristine place where things like that never happen are actually the ones being unrealistic.

[Kraco]

I suspect Makima is not 100% human, for the simple reason she can smell devils.
As of yet I categorize her as a highly manipulative person. I'd like to be able to like her, but she's way too dangerous for that.

We don't really know yet if most of the hunters are just highly trained humans or something more. I'm happy Makima seems like a dangerous person because it would make sense for someone in her particular job, no matter if she was like that from the beginning or if she needed to become like that just to be able to keep going.

Maybe I'm not reading enough into this but I think the lines were blurred from the start with contracted devils, since they're already using "evil" to eradicate "evil" from the start. Unless I missed any information about devil hunters who do not use any special powers at all or holy powers.

As for her reason it feels like she just want a usable tool, she might still sympathize with him but still a tool.

There was that line that others in the organisation would like to shut down the experimental unit, so likely most aren't willing to go as far as Makima. There's still a difference between using weapons and being a weapon. In our reality, for example, human soldiers being equipped with weapons, even remote controlled, versus an autonomous system independently going out and killing people, without relying on any human judgement beyond the initial programming. It's probably worse in this series' world because it would be like relying on the very enemies. The line might have been blurred, yes, but I get a feeling Makima is trying to blur it much more than anyone before her.

[fireheart]

Human trafficking and "debt collection" are 2 rackets the yakuza are literally involved in. In modern japan.

Anime that portray Japan as a pristine place where things like that never happen are actually the ones being unrealistic.

But I haven't said that these thing don't happen? When I thought about what Mfauli was saying my issue is again a child who recently became an orphan and the government doesn't do anything to provide any kind of support, put the kid in an orphanage or foster home. These crime existing and Yakuza doing these things do not contradict my point and I hope you're able to see this.

The way it's been depicted in the anime so far isn't realistic to me.
1. Guardian dies while in debt (believable)
2. Government doesn't do anything to put an orphan in an orphanage or foster home (hard to believe)
3. Child doesn't even go to school (according to David75) despite elementary school being compulsory and this doesn't trigger anything in any system (hard to believe)
4. Yakuza tells the child they have to shoulder the debt (believable)
5. Leaves the kid to do whatever he wants (hard to believe/maybe, I don't know)

So the things that don't make sense imo is point 2, 3 and 5.
It'd make sense if
1. Denji was kidnapped by the Yakuza to shoulder the debt and work it off (previous point 5 counters this)
2. His parents were illegal immigrants and therefor they and him are not on any records (No way that happen in an anime)
3. Denji ran away from the orphanage/foster home (Does happen, but no one seems to even hint at that or his history so far)

Again please note that I'm not saying that the type of crime you explained does not exist, they do and you'd be silly to think these things don't happen. But you might think I'm naive for actually believing in the government would do something to actually protect a child that just became an orphan. I find it hard that they just threw his file in the trash and called it a day, in modern society there should still be records of him.

So I hope this makes it clear my issue isn't the crimes, it's that the government didn't do anything when he became an orphan and that to me that's hard to believe.

There was that line that others in the organisation would like to shut down the experimental unit, so likely most aren't willing to go as far as Makima. There's still a difference between using weapons and being a weapon. In our reality, for example, human soldiers being equipped with weapons, even remote controlled, versus an autonomous system independently going out and killing people, without relying on any human judgement beyond the initial programming. It's probably worse in this series' world because it would be like relying on the very enemies. The line might have been blurred, yes, but I get a feeling Makima is trying to blur it much more than anyone before her.

This does makes sense and the comparison as well but it's hard to see the difference since it's still blurred from the start. If contracted devils exists why can't they just do a contract with a fiend of half devil? I don't know if she's trying to blur it even more, I don't really see what she would win from it or what the end game of that would be. In the end I think she just want stronger pieces she can move around or just want ways to empower themselves even more since contracted devils are bound to have limits. But I'd be happy to be wrong and see her have a grander plan in motion.

[Kraco]

This does makes sense and the comparison as well but it's hard to see the difference since it's still blurred from the start. If contracted devils exists why can't they just do a contract with a fiend of half devil? I don't know if she's trying to blur it even more, I don't really see what she would win from it or what the end game of that would be. In the end I think she just want stronger pieces she can move around or just want ways to empower themselves even more since contracted devils are bound to have limits. But I'd be happy to be wrong and see her have a grander plan in motion.

That's essentially what I was wondering about: what's her deal in all of this. Like David said, she seems pretty dangerous, and she should be in such a job, so she must have a really good reason for doing what others apparently aren't willing to do. If she's not quite human herself, maybe she has got her own (literal) deadline as well. In the end she was very, very quick to adopt Denji into her unit, without even knowing his name before making the decision.

But yeah, it is possible she's not trying to blur it more if she has got a more pressing reason, such as her own, or her friend/relative's, head rolling if the experimental unit doesn't work.