Bokutachi no Remake / Remake Our Life!

[Ryllharu]

But he just gave up, let Tsurayuki go and eh ...

This is always his problem, always been his problem, and will always be his problem unless he finally learns something from this future jump.

Something goes wrong, and he just gives up and collapses.

He needs to recognize it is his attitude, not his available opportunities, regrets, and "luck."

He was extremely lucky in his original timeline. How often do you get cross-functional knowledge in a job that you switched to because you hated your original career? How often do you lose a job and get a new dream job a month later because you met a hot woman manager on a footbridge? How often do you rapidly work your way up from a clerical job to a management coordination position?

He's been envious of a life he thought would be better, and his shitty attitude and ego ruined that one too.

Maybe one day he'll realize that big creative projects are a collaboration, and a single decision maker for the group usually produces an inferior product.

[MFauli]

This is always his problem, always been his problem, and will always be his problem unless he finally learns something from this future jump.

Something goes wrong, and he just gives up and collapses.

I mean, that's factually untrue, Ryll, lol. Just a couple episodes ago we saw how he reacted to the missing camera. He didn't collapse, he thought hard and then made it happen against all odds. Your irrational hatred against Kyouya is showing again ;D

[Ryllharu]

It was the 2nd episode, not a couple back.

We saw his catastrophizing thought pattern. You quoted me on it so I have to assume you actually read it.

I wouldn't describe that as thinking hard on it. He nearly had a breakdown then. He just fought it once. It hasn't happened since, and we haven't seen him in an actual challenge since then, because everyone listens to his super-genius advice and it always works out. Until now. This time he immediately collapsed into his normal depressive cycle.

Right back to where he's always been.

Until a loli Christmas Future'd him away from the negative outcome he caused. Hopefully to show him how much more he's fucked up the ambitions of other creative people with his ego and lack of personal accountability.

edit:
Let's think about Nanako for a second.

We can safely presume that Kawasegawa was always going to confront Nanako about her singing and finally push her away from acting, because it wasn't what Nanako really wanted to do with her life.

But instead, we have Kyouya backing her up, telling her what to do, how to do it, and showing her how to do things. With his preference. If there was any overlap, it could be because he was driving her to write her own future songs, or at least that sound, because it is what she composed later.

However, if he's directing her how to work, Nanako isn't finding her own voice. She's not writing songs in a way that N@NA would, she's Nanako writing Kyouya's tracks.

If Nanako ended up getting just as pissed off at Kawasegawa, but found that drive herself to do what she wanted...which the concert eps tells us she would have without Kyouya's intervention, maybe just a little slower, she'd have only her own insecurities to overcome. Doing it herself builds her confidence because she's doing all of it and people are reacting positively.

With the game development, Kyouya is holding her hand the whole time.

I suspect she won't be very famous either in the future arc. Maybe a contract vocalist, but not a composer and singer-songwriter idol.

[MFauli]

A pragmatic pov could say, however: So what? Is it really Kyouya's fault when people make different life choices just because he's around? What if these guys' lives actually became BETTER? Would Kyouya then be a bad guy? I doubt it. He caused change, that's the only fact. We know Shinoaki is a happy mother and married to him, hardly a terrible life. Tsurayuki might have become a much more respected author now that he left game dev writing. Similar, Nanako might have become a famours singer that'S not just known for shitty light novel soundtracks. And Kawasegawa might have become a much more successful person, hardened by how the past turned out.

The point is: People make choices. Kyouya didn't actively manipulate them. He just happened to be there and tried to do the best within the school regimen. Neither did he try to sabotage anyone nor use his knowledge to catch himself a cute gf. It just happened.

But whatever: Any attempts at fixing things now would result in erasing his daughter. That'd be worse than ruining someone's career.

[Ryllharu]

You're rewriting history a bit.

- Aki, we'll find out.

- N@NA is not known primarily for game soundtracks. In the original timeline, she did one several years ago that was a huge hit, and was coming back to games to support the Anniversary project in 2016. It's not clear if she's spent time doing mostly Anison work like Suzuki Konomi, or if she's a proper multimedia star, more in like with Utada Hikaru who has her work all over the place including regular pop music. Sorta implied to be the later in the livestream wall of text crap that east Asia does.

- Tsurayuki, same deal. Did one game scenario that was the huge hit, then became a very famous author (short story compilations, one of which Kyouya accidentally stole for their project...and I cannot believe he didn't make the connection until THIS episode). Also novels primarily. More mainstream writing than Kinoko Nasu of Type-Moon or Gen Urobuchi.

Kyouya has done damage to at least two of them. Directly. He knows he manipulated them into doing it his way, thinking it was the right thing to do. His dialogue revealed it when he's walking with the studio with Nanako and pink-haired Loli-God. You're also forgetting that Kawasegawa's sister directly warned him not to do what he ended up doing with the game, when he had exerted control over one of their group projects. There's a balance point, that's what editors do, etc. It's a collaborative effort. "If the production side stops trying, then that means that the whole project is doomed...No one outranks anyone else."

Kyouya single-handedly got all three of them to stop trying at their specialties in order to meet the schedule. And he did it in a way where he was commanding the whole project.

I could be wrong about all three, but I very much doubt it. My assumption until the next episode airs is that Aki has also given up on art. Not to blame the daughter or anything, who clearly does draw a lot herself. You need to remember that Kyouya considers her artwork something that has actually saved him in his darkest moments in the original timeline. If she's stopped doing art, or of that treasured book of her work that he has never got published, he will believe he's done irreparable harm. Others in that livestream feel the same way. Shinoaki is considered "a god" in the digital art world.


edit:

You're really missing the obvious hints. He shatters Aki's confidence with a bunch of bullshit and overt lies to maintain the schedule. He even thinks her idea to redraw it a little zoomed out to get the clenched fist is a great idea "As a creator, I'd love to sign off on this," but then thinks some shit about the schedule, and that's actually not the bad part. If he had said that, fine. She'd understand, which we know because she says exactly that.

Nah...Kyouya flat out lies to her face with his 'I know what I'm doing' tone he's been using with his housemates for months now. She pushes back for a second, and even directly states that he might be having reservations because of the schedule. He double-down on the lie that he thinks she should only focus on facial expressions and backs it up with some storyboarding bullshit. Implying that the way Shinoaki works and her ideas are wrong. Focus on the waifu, not the superior overall composition where the readers get a visual clue to the protagonist's mindset. "I think your idea is interesting, but this one is better, what do you say?"

"Interesting" being universal business code speak for, "your idea is stupid."

He's railroading her into an admittedly inferior idea, and negatively impacting her instincts.

[MFauli]

In all of your tirade against Kyouya, you're missing WHY he did what he did: To save Tsurayuki from dropping out of school.

While it's ironic how that still happened, you cannot accuse Kyouya of being pushy and railroading them, when the opposite would have resulted in them missing the deadline and Tsurayuki having to drop out. The group was up against death and Kyouya made the correct choices to save them from death.

Whatever "bad" consequences this might have, you cannot blame it on Kyouya's intention. Those were good.

On a personal note: If you were Kyouya at this point ,would you try to undo the "damage"? Erase your daughter?

[Ryllharu]

In all of your tirade against Kyouya, you're missing WHY he did what he did: To save Tsurayuki from dropping out of school.

While it's ironic how that still happened, you cannot accuse Kyouya of being pushy and railroading them, when the opposite would have resulted in them missing the deadline and Tsurayuki having to drop out. The group was up against death and Kyouya made the correct choices to save them from death.

Whatever "bad" consequences this might have, you cannot blame it on Kyouya's intention. Those were good.

You're missing the actual message of his breakdown this episode. The WHY he did it was twisted from his original intention to jump back in the first place. His own ego distorted it.

- He wanted to go back because his own life was "a failure." He wanted the opportunity to work with and collaborate with the Platinum Generation Trio, so he wouldn't have to face the failures of his current life, or so he thought.
- He says this episode, 'These are the correct actions to take. This must be the real reason why I was sent back here, to help them.'

Then he realizes after he destroyed Tsurayuki's career with his meddling and borrowed competence in everything, that none of them had really needed him in the first place. They were all extremely successful in that normal timeline without his involvement or "aid."

The want for a crutch sent him back in time. His own true capabilities as of 2016 snapped those crutches. He keeps missing the lessons he was sent back to learn (and I mean school lessons, not the moral ones Loli-God is teaching him now that he's ruined the one thing he wanted).

On a personal note: If you were Kyouya at this point ,would you try to undo the "damage"? Erase your daughter?

I wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. Ever-Forward is the only direction to go. Regret and Envy are tied together, and are both self-destructive to your mental state. Go far enough forward and you won't get caught in the same starting place, making the same mistakes, when events loop back on themselves as the world always does. Because you will know better and will have changed before it can.

In 2018, Kyouya has already ruined everything. That's the purpose of Loli-God sending him even further from where he started. To see the truth of it. There's some good things, but as I've speculated, probably far more that Kyouya will ultimately dislike even more.

[MFauli]

None of what you write changes that Kyouya did what he did do to help Tsurayuki. That's the core of everything that went down with their game development.

But let's look at something else here: You point out that Tsurayuki didn't need Kyouya's help in the original timeline. What does that mean? That means he dropped out of school. Which also means: Nothing has really changed. Outside of some temporal missed opportunities that might or might not have occurred otherwise, Tsurayuki is walking the same path as intended. Only with some extra experience. We haven't see where this lead him in the changed timeline, but unless this anime wants to really blame bad stuff on Kyouya, it's just as likely that Tsurayuki became even more successful, because the experience made him realize, that it's always best to stay true to his own writing and never bow down to external pressure, thus allowing him to write even more amazing novels than he had written in the original timeline.Considering how cheap this anime is, I don't expect this, lol, instead we'll probably see how he's totally miserable. But to imply that it's Kyouya's fault is just bs. Strictly causative speaking, yes it is, but realistically, no it's not.

Similar could be speculated about the other two girls.

Honestly, the best outcome would be if everyone actually went on to be more successful than originally. The only thing that makes me confident that won't happen is that, of course,an anime hero can never just enjoy happiness, aka getting Shinoaki as a wife is too much happiness, so of course the author will destroy this new reality. :/

I totally expect this anime to be utter trash, though, and Kyouya just casually killing his own daughter, because he feels his friends from the past are more important. That will be extremely morally wrong on every level, but that's the kind of anime this has been since episode 3.

I wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

So a cop-out. I'd still be interested in an actual answer.

[Ryllharu]

None of what you write changes that Kyouya did what he did do to help Tsurayuki. That's the core of everything that went down with their game development.

I am not surprised of course, but still disappointed that you consistently ignore the content itself of any series that tells you you're wrong.

The Platinum Generation didn't need help. Kyouya deluded himself into thinking they did. His "help" did the opposite. He realized it when Tsurayuki told him he was going to drop out. Loli-God shows up to jump him forward even further to show him what else he's fucked up. Kyouya's help was the opposite of what his teacher advised him to do, but because he's a shitty person, he convinced himself that it was right, even knowing on each discrete action it wasn't. His arrogance and self-righteousness used to convinced himself to suppress that instinct.

There's a difference between helping and coddling, and something Kyouya never learned, because all his competence in the 2006 time is unearned. He's cheating with future skills and knowledge that he's learned over a decade. Mentoring is different, giving people a chance to fail on their own. Kyouya has been directing all of them exactly how to work.

But let's look at something else here: You point out that Tsurayuki didn't need Kyouya's help in the original timeline. What does that mean? That means he dropped out of school. Which also means: Nothing has really changed. Outside of some temporal missed opportunities that might or might not have occurred otherwise, Tsurayuki is walking the same path as intended. Only with some extra experience.

Does it? We don't know anything about him in the original timeline. We only know that he was successful somehow, and now we know that he isn't going to write at all.

We're told from Kyouya's thoughts that Kawasegawa ends up getting into game development pretty naturally. A self-correction to his influence in this timeline perhaps, though that scene is kind of incoherent in general. It just jumps from video editing (still filmmaking) to Kyouya telling the audience this actually means game development...whatever.

Tsurayuki could have been helped by Kawasegawa, who is much more measured than Kyouya's ham-fisted "aid" and she'd obviously listen to her own sister more. It's the most likely answer because we know from 2016 that she knows all of them personally, and they did produce an early game together. Or Tsurayuki could have stressed out so much he submits a manuscript as a last resort and gets a publication advance to keep himself in school. Maybe he submitted something for a prize, and won a scholarship. We don't know.

But we do know that Kyouya stole some of his ideas ('I guess I'm not that original after all...'), told him how to fix his writing ('I guess I'm not that good of a writer after all'), constantly told Tsurayuki how to fix his work, and eventually just completely rewrote the outline ('I guess this won't really be my work after all'). All Kyouya has been doing from the beginning is undermine Tsurayuki's work. Every time one of the trio question his judgement, he lies about his reasons, which hurts all of them more. We just saw Tsurayuki break first because Kyouya has been particularly unfair to his talent. But in the last month, he's been equally brutal to the two girls.

We'll find out where he actually ends up. A doctor full of regrets, presumably.

Honestly, the best outcome would be if everyone actually went on to be more successful than originally. The only thing that makes me confident that won't happen is that, of course,an anime hero can never just enjoy happiness, aka getting Shinoaki as a wife is too much happiness, so of course the author will destroy this new reality. :/

I totally expect this anime to be utter trash, though, and Kyouya just casually killing his own daughter, because he feels his friends from the past are more important. That will be extremely morally wrong on every level, but that's the kind of anime this has been since episode 3.

There's absolutely no chance any one is successful except for Kyouya in the jump ahead. Maybe Kawasegawa. All his success unearned because he already knew what trends would be popular when.

Again, you focus on one detail to miss the actual statements of the series. Kyouya values the Platinum Trio's work. He personally has been "saved" by Shinoaki's art book. Other people have too. She's a huge influence. That's probably number one. Tsurayuki's work left a huge impression on him in the past, so he accidentally stole that detailed concept for their project, down to the specifics. That means that anthology will never be published. Nanako is evidently very famous, and who knows how many things she's been involved in. (edit: In order to help himself be successful, he's taken away that positive influence that he got in the original timeline from thousands of people)

So a cop-out. I'd still be interested in an actual answer.

That is an actual answer. I've been consistent from the start on why exactly I hate Kyouya's attitude. He gives up, laments, and collapses into a depressed lump rather than getting back up and continuing to try. He mires in regret, envies what he thinks he didn't get, suppresses the positive he already had, and then when he does get his redo, he fucks it up way worse because he lacks the conscious awareness of the ripples he causes. He's so fucking self-satisfied with having a degree of influence that he refused to recognize that he already had because he's too busy pitying himself in the original timeline.

Ask yourself this: If he was so competent at so many aspects of the business when he worked at the Black Company making games, and he knew Kawasegawa somehow had a personal connection to three people in the Platinum Generation...why did he go back home again to wallow in a pity party rather than ask Kawasegawa if he could have a chance to work on a smaller scale project with her friends? The two of them were already hanging out for dinners after hours.

Because he is an envious, resentful, self-pitying, fucking loser.

[MFauli]

Because he is an envious, resentful, self-pitying, fucking loser.

Dear fuckness god, LOL.

Ryll, no matter how much you write, your insane hatred against Kyouya will never not make any goddamn sense You keep using words like "stole", "deluded", "arrogance", etc., but you ENTIRELY refuse to realize and accept that the CORE motivation of Kyouya's (IN THAT MOMENT!!1 <- this is important) was to help! And he didn't think "oh, I'm gonna help the platinum generation!". No, he thought "damn, this Tsurayuki, who I've been living with for weeks now, isn't gonna make it in time, I gotta see what I can do to help him" aka he helped an individual person, a friend even.

We can all agree that he fucked up to some degree (we don't know yet to what degree, though), but to paint it in a way that makes it seem like Kyouya actively and intentionally ruined anyone's future, is just flat out wrong. Honestly, I don't think we can have any meaningful discussion about that until next week when we'll probably get to see the wider consequences of Kyouya's changes.

Until then, you'll maybe find the muse to answer my question after all, EVEN if you say you wouldn't have ever gotten to that point. Imagine you're at this point nonetheless. Answer from there. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

[neflight86]

Lot to unpack here, in our surprise most controversial show of the season.

Even when a consequence has finally showed up, Tsurayuki still spends half of the scene saying how fucking great Kyouya is.

Agreed; there's no need to continue to lay it on this thick when that dialogue could have spent more time explaining the harm his overbearing direction caused instead and sell that to the viewer instead of how awesome Kyouya is...

Kyouya isn't just doing a director's job at this point. He was actively squelching all of their creativity to meet the deadline. Telling Shino to not do her own style of art that she knew would evoke a stronger emotion. Telling Nanako to rehash someone else's work and just be derivative. But no, they don't even fight back, and Kawasegawa or her sister aren't even there to tell him off. Aki and Nanako's hints were too subdued, because how dare they question the 'genius' who has saved them so many times so far in school? Even the self-satisfied thought Kyouya had "I'm glad we decided to do things my way. It was the right decision." What an intensely unlikeable guy. Who writes a business proposal to his housemates on a collaborative project then gently guilt-trips them into agreeing to it?

I'm shaky here. I understand he put his foot down, and the creatives had to compromise, but it was in service to meeting an all or nothing deadline that predicated the entire worth of the project. Art without compromise is more typical of hobby grade dabbling than commercial pursuits, though these youth may not be equipped to accept that yet. I figure it would be good for them to understand early on that following every little distraction will get them nowhere fast. I'm with Mfauli in that I think the intention of helping out Tsurayuki trumps this unforeseen mental damage.

Because he slowly deviated into thinking that he was so important that he help people who never needed him in the first place. He wanted to collaborate, but instead he ended up undermining all of their confidence.

At what point did he think he was so important? When he put competing the project on time over the whims of the others? As the story presents it, their disorganized methods would not have completed the project without someone being the 'bad guy' and making tough decisions about what was feasible or not. I never really got him thinking that he was some savior to them- I thought he was trying to help his friend pay for school.

No wonder he's a failure in the original timeline. He blames everything else and his "lack of opportunity" when his personal efforts aren't enough, and when he's given free reign with all the talent helping him he could ask for, he lacks the capacity to relinquish even an iota of that control. Lack of determination on the forward end, lack of humility on the redo.

He was mopey after losing his job... I've been that way too, on occasion, but I'm not in a TV show broadcasting my self thoughts for the world to judge. We all have bad times, and honestly, its not like he was suicidal or anything. I just don't see his conviction (or lack thereof) in the short amount of time we've been curated to see as being built up enough to take to heart like you are. I take this more as backdrop stuff than legitimate plot relevant character analysis.

This is always his problem, always been his problem, and will always be his problem unless he finally learns something from this future jump.

Something goes wrong, and he just gives up and collapses.

He needs to recognize it is his attitude, not his available opportunities, regrets, and "luck."

I don't understand. What does not giving up and collapsing look like? He lost his job and went home while he presumably planned out the next steps in his life. Then he was transported back in time to try again, unbeknownst to him. Far as I can tell, he was in a mild state of grieving. Is that too much to allow?

Maybe there is some author insert and wish fulfillment here or the like, but I can't hold it against the character himself who was sent back in time against his will and knowledge. To not expect him to try to make change when presented with a prime opportunity to do so would be very odd, indeed.

He needs to recognize it is his attitude, not his available opportunities, regrets, and "luck."

He was extremely lucky in his original timeline. How often do you get cross-functional knowledge in a job that you switched to because you hated your original career? How often do you lose a job and get a new dream job a month later because you met a hot woman manager on a footbridge? How often do you rapidly work your way up from a clerical job to a management coordination position?

What you describe here doesn't seem like luck aside from the initial meet up. He worked his way into the skillset he has like anyone else. People change jobs all the time, and working your way up is a part of that. People at the Kasegawa's company respected his contributions and he didn't really have any glaring weaknesses other than a lack of control (project got cancelled by higher ups). I don't think his attitude was the problem.

The point is: People make choices. Kyouya didn't actively manipulate them. He just happened to be there and tried to do the best within the school regimen. Neither did he try to sabotage anyone nor use his knowledge to catch himself a cute gf. It just happened.

Pretty much agreed.

Kyouya has done damage to at least two of them. Directly. He knows he manipulated them into doing it his way, thinking it was the right thing to do. His dialogue revealed it when he's walking with the studio with Nanako and pink-haired Loli-God. You're also forgetting that Kawasegawa's sister directly warned him not to do what he ended up doing with the game, when he had exerted control over one of their group projects. There's a balance point, that's what editors do, etc. It's a collaborative effort. "If the production side stops trying, then that means that the whole project is doomed...No one outranks anyone else."

Kyouya single-handedly got all three of them to stop trying at their specialties in order to meet the schedule. And he did it in a way where he was commanding the whole project.

...

Nah...Kyouya flat out lies to her face with his 'I know what I'm doing' tone he's been using with his housemates for months now. She pushes back for a second, and even directly states that he might be having reservations because of the schedule. He double-down on the lie that he thinks she should only focus on facial expressions and backs it up with some storyboarding bullshit. Implying that the way Shinoaki works and her ideas are wrong. Focus on the waifu, not the superior overall composition where the readers get a visual clue to the protagonist's mindset. "I think your idea is interesting, but this one is better, what do you say?"

"Interesting" being universal business code speak for, "your idea is stupid."

He's railroading her into an admittedly inferior idea, and negatively impacting her instincts.

I don't think that can be applied to a specialty project like this with a clearly non-artistic goal: to make money by a deadline. In a non-crunch environment, I think there is more room for playing nice and following creative collaboration. There has to be rank/heiarchy or we have five individual projects that may or may not mesh together.

Isn't getting people to try new things outside their specialties a good thing in a school environment? Wouldn't that help them develop lateral skills and prepare them to be flexible in the future? No one was at gunpoint; any could have quit at any time, but they respected his time lord wizdom to get the project done which they had no plan to do elsewise.

As for Shonoaki, he already has been made aware by Kasegawa to tip-toe around the girls until this project was settled to not further disrupt their ability to work with his unlimited stud works, so I understand why he didn't want to get into a detailed explanation of how, while her idea would improve the product, it most likely would not impact the sales of the product, which is why this misery crunch is taking place. If anything, it could make the deadline get missed and make their effort all for nothing. Knowing her kind personality, that truth bomb could have made her depressed. If her instincts were that fragile as to be stunted by a single remark, she's got some more growing to do.

- He wanted to go back because his own life was "a failure." He wanted the opportunity to work with and collaborate with the Platinum Generation Trio, so he wouldn't have to face the failures of his current life, or so he thought.
- He says this episode, 'These are the correct actions to take. This must be the real reason why I was sent back here, to help them.'

Then he realizes after he destroyed Tsurayuki's career with his meddling and borrowed competence in everything, that none of them had really needed him in the first place. They were all extremely successful in that normal timeline without his involvement or "aid."

The want for a crutch sent him back in time. His own true capabilities as of 2016 snapped those crutches. He keeps missing the lessons he was sent back to learn (and I mean school lessons, not the moral ones Loli-God is teaching him now that he's ruined the one thing he wanted).

I can see how that line could sound like self-importance, but if his intent is at-all humble, he could have adopted the mindset of a helpful time-cherub supporting people he admires. He doesn't count himself among them as far as I can tell.

I can't argue they were already successful at present, but I would probably be excited to work with people I admired as well. Was he not supposed to approach them even though he wound up in the same dorm?

I've never heard of 'borrowed competence' in that context, lol. That's a pretty backhanded way to say 'preserved memories'. But meddling? Was he supposed to just let Tsurayuki quit school just because he's afraid of a butterfly effect? He has no way to know if any of this is playing out like it did in the original timeline, so he took action to get a result he thought would be better. No malicious intent. This was an accident at worst.

In 2018, Kyouya has already ruined everything. That's the purpose of Loli-God sending him even further from where he started. To see the truth of it. There's some good things, but as I've speculated, probably far more that Kyouya will ultimately dislike even more.

If this happens in the coming episodes, that will certainly do much for your case against Kyouya, as I'm not sold on his moral degeneracy or awful attitude quite yet...

The Platinum Generation didn't need help. Kyouya deluded himself into thinking they did. His "help" did the opposite. He realized it when Tsurayuki told him he was going to drop out.

...

There's a difference between helping and coddling, and something Kyouya never learned, because all his competence in the 2006 time is unearned. He's cheating with future skills and knowledge that he's learned over a decade. Mentoring is different, giving people a chance to fail on their own. Kyouya has been directing all of them exactly how to work.

It's anime, so I should take what is said at face value, but Tsurayuki wouldn't be the first teenager to say something, mean it, and then not mean it later. If he loves writing enough to fight his family over it, he will probably still continue writing somehow.

I suppose they did not need his help, but they sure looked like they might, given the circumstances. I don't see how his past self memories are un-earned if he also has the traumatic memories wo go with them. He's an imposter teenager, I get that, but he is still a student at this school, so I figure he can be allowed a mistake or two. I'm also not sold on the idea of the merit of letting people 'fail on their own'. Firstly, this was a timed project with monetary consequences, and secondly, letting someone fail seems counterproductive in and of itself, even if the goal is to prepare them for the future. Is it a 'building character' kind of thing you are referring to?

If he was so competent at so many aspects of the business when he worked at the Black Company making games, and he knew Kawasegawa somehow had a personal connection to three people in the Platinum Generation...why did he go back home again to wallow in a pity party rather than ask Kawasegawa if he could have a chance to work on a smaller scale project with her friends? The two of them were already hanging out for dinners after hours.

For all we know, his permanent position was never solidified and he was let go, or the Trio felt betrayed by the company pulling the plug on the game and severed ties with Kasegawa. Time passed off camera where things could have happened. I can think of a few reasons, but I don't meant to try to pick apart your (good) question.

Well, this has gotten long, and has made for good discussion, so I look forward to seeing what will happen next on our future perfect?

[shinta|hikari]

What the guy above said.

[Ryllharu]

Episode 09

-------------

What do you know...I was 90% right. Guess it's because of my "irrational" hate that I wasn't completely correct.

Kyouya made everyone mediocre with his "help." He's successful at a mid-tier company and as a well-known fixer (such amazing talents including telling someone you're coming in 30 minutes so they can be presentable for business discussion). Even Kawasegawa is mediocre thanks to his influence in this timeline (though I don't think I can make the stretch that him being available to fix things for her team is why she became "defanged").

He openly states he stole their dreams, and ended up being the only one happy.

And sure enough, when he realizes it, falling right into the trash with depression again...

We can also guess who Minori Ayaka used to idolize.

[David75]

Basically an episode to show Kyouya what damage an average but efficient guy's best intentions can do.
A bit like if everyone got bad luck for him to get small luck at the shrine visit except it's for life.

I think it would be a lot harder to be thrown into your future self working adult. Passwords, projects, tasks and connexions... you'd probably need weeks to get into it and I wonder how people you work with would understand your amnesia and cope with it.
The same applies for his new familly.
Since he probably has physical changes to his 10 years jump, he could have had the memories for those years too.
But that jump is awkward in the sense that he did nothing to help the others and ended up dating/marrying Shino.

Side note: That criminal looking dude was their boss ? You sure he's not dealing drugs and having a cat bar and uses that game company as a front ?

[Ryllharu]

Side note: That criminal looking dude was their boss ? You sure he's not dealing drugs and having a cat bar and uses that game company as a front ?

Seemed pretty obvious to me from the exhausted workers at their desks that the mid-tier company is Crunch Central, consistently putting out average to good VNs using their employees life force to do it. Skeezy Boss owns the business, probably does own a hostess bar, a soapland, and a pachinko parlor. Kawasegawa runs one team, Kyouya runs another.

[MFauli]

Episode 09

-------------

What do you know...I was 90% right. Guess it's because of my "irrational" hate that I wasn't completely correct.

Nah, more like 10% right, because you're still irrational.

Kyouya himself admits that he did something bad, but he still never intended that. Also stop blaming him for getting depressed over the situation, seriously, Ryll, I'm starting to think that you're some emotionless "depression isnt real, just gotta keep on trucking!" dude. :/

There's really only 2 proper paths to take from here that wouldn't result in some asshole outcome:

1.) Jump back in time and fix it, but still marry Shinoaki, so that their daughter will be born and not eradicated from existence.

2.) Stay in present and visit Nanako, Tsurayuki, and bring everyone together. Help them rekindle their passion.

I know Ryll would be outraged over option 2.), like "OMG Kyouya is Jesus again, fixing literally everyone's life! omg!!1". But still, it's one of two viable paths. Anything that leads to him eradicating his daughter would be the most fucked up solution, because your daughter's life is more important than other people's career.

Btw. can we talk about that new artist girl's attitude? Isn't she contractually obligated to finish her work within a certain deadline? The scene was all cutesy, but irl, she'd face severe fines and other consequences, right?

[Ryllharu]

Btw. can we talk about that new artist girl's attitude? Isn't she contractually obligated to finish her work within a certain deadline? The scene was all cutesy, but irl, she'd face severe fines and other consequences, right?

Seriously, MFauli, I'm starting to think you're some emotionless, "You're doing it for the exposure!" type of people who commission work from artists.

Art is hard. Especially digital art that has the level of detail that Shinoaki and Ayaka do. Each piece might take up to a couple weeks to complete. Good artists who work all the time can do them in a matter of hours from sketch to finished, but they've put in thousands and thousands of hours of practice. Manga artists are usually just doing line art with shading, and while that's 20 pages worth, there's often several assistants involved to get it all done in a week.

Ayaka is also experiencing some burnout, and struggling with her art because of people who treated her just like Kyouya treated Aki that day in 2007. Aki's monologue on why she eventually quit felt like it came from the heart, and even though she said it wasn't Kyouya's fault, it still kinda was, and he knew it. He planted that seed of doubt with her regarding her own abilities. As for Ayaka, it depends on what's written in her contract, something that this series casually glosses over. The game will get delayed, Ayaka's reputation will suffer, and she might get less work in the future as word gets out that she breached her contract delivery date. Or she'll blast through them and get it done. If she was seriously blowing her past all her deadlines, she'd probably already have been fired.

Overall, this series handles that situation at a juvenile level.

Lastly, you're projecting your own expectations and feelings onto me, which is really kinda weird. This dumpster fire is gonna end the way it does, and I'm not going to be particularly surprised because it is very predictable and telegraphed when you're paying attention to what they're saying in the episodes. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I hate this series because of how shallow and patronizing it is compared to Imosae and Saekano, which both deal with similar subject matters much more maturely.

[neflight86]

Well, looks like the future isn't so perfect, after all.

Looks like Ryllharu was right about the detrimental effects of Kyouya's temporal tampering...

Again, I'll have to take it at face value, due to the story saying so, but I would seriously question just how artists this fragile could have possibly thrived in this uncaring world (original timeline) without a guide like Kyouya to help shield them from the realities of professional responsibility.

Before I dig into the causality and my issues with it, I would like to say that the most interesting part of the episode was Kyouya's poker face at trying to decipher his current life without outright admitting to anyone he has, effectively, amnesia. It reminded me of just how much specialized information we all have in attending to our own daily matters and jobs. Though, funnily enough, Kyouya's curse of competence allowed him to slip into his role with pretty much no one being the wiser. I'm not sure if it is more interesting to interpret that as his actual job being so low effort/impact as to be undetectable (what is even 10 years at a game company?), or as the author not wanting to take the effort to craft a more interesting workplace dynamic, which suggests the same of this story as a whole...

So, why does he not get to keep the 10 years of memories from his void years? Kyouya immediately pieced together how his influence (must have) drove the others away from their destinies, but if he had that insight going into these last ten years, how did auto-pilot Kyouya mess that up? Seems like a narrative concession to enable their failure, I have to assume.

I still can't bring myself to think of Kyouya as a bad guy for doing what he did. The best of intentions resulted in a different world than he expected, but is it a worse one? I'm going to choose to say no- It has one more doctor, presumably, one less Youtube streamer, and a functional family unit with Kasegawa on the same track at a smaller company. Did Kyouya really steal happiness by simply achieving it? Like murder versus manslaughter. The only lesson I can take away from this is to not let yourself go back in time by cosmic forces outside of your control, because the butterfly effect- it turns out- is belligerent.

Kyouya made everyone mediocre with his "help." He's successful at a mid-tier company and as a well-known fixer (such amazing talents including telling someone you're coming in 30 minutes so they can be presentable for business discussion). Even Kawasegawa is mediocre thanks to his influence in this timeline (though I don't think I can make the stretch that him being available to fix things for her team is why she became "defanged").

I understand what you are saying, and it may be true, but how is someone supposed to know that without hindsight or ominous foreshadowing that only we, the audience, are privy to? That's why I can't get on the hate train. I would have probably done approximately the same things in his shoes (less skillfully, of course), and I'm supposed to accept that I'm scum who ruins dreams for trying to help because this story contrived that to be a bad thing? Back to the earlier mention, are artists regularly that susceptible to 'coddling'? I doubt it, at least for the ones who collect checks for their work. As you say, this story glosses over some realities that could make it a more serious/mature story, and this entire scenario I'll count as one of them.

Griping aside, how do you think we arrive at the 'happy ending'? Another redo, but with bootstrap, watertight reinforcement, or perhaps a reset to the original timeline? Is it even possible we try to salvage this timeline?

[MFauli]

If "you" refers to all of us, my 2 options for a happy ending are in my posting above :>

Regarding time travel: That's why I hate most time travel stories. Tokyo Revengers does the exact same mistake. The main character jumps between times and only has his own memories from his active experience, yet there MUST be a version of him that experiences all the other stuff, makes important decisions and so on. That's just a massive plothole and I think the authors know that, they're just too lazy to figure out how to do it right. Because you could. It'd just add another facet to the story.

For better or worse, these anime are so shallow ultimately that I don't even care much about these plot holes. If it were Steins;Gate making such mistake, I'd be more upset. But in this generic anime that will be forgotten the very moment the fall season begins? Nah

[David75]

Regarding the cute little girl, I was sad to think she might not be born in an alternate timeline but:
-it might be Shino never had a baby in the first timeline, we don't know.
-I'm pretty sure she exists in many other timelines, where Kyouya is not the father.

I'm still thinking Kawasegawa is the ultimate route, with everyone at their peak happiness and creativity.