Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[shinta|hikari]

I don't want to mistakenly assume your thoughts, so I want to clarify some things.

I mean the excuse of "it's a fictional world where they say that horrible thing is okay, so it makes that horrible thing okay" doesn't magically give it a pass, regardless of what travesty you want to plug in there.

For example, all the isekai that are like "We have slavery, and slavery is good and the slaves love being your slaves!" You don't just have to shrug and go "Oh well! That's that world!". Like, no! That's not just a reality that happened and you just have to accept it! Somebody WROTE that world to be that way! Someone sat down and created a world where people just love being slaves. And you don't have to give that writer a pass for that. Because it's fucking weird!

Are you saying that authors that write about topics that are unethical or immoral based on our current lens as acceptable in their fictional world are bad? I use the word bad because "weird" is not very clear. More specifically, are these authors bad people (morally) or bad writers (creatively or in terms of skill)?

I'm not looking to "forbid" anything. I'm just not willing to cut a character slack just because an awful thing is a normal part of their world.

Are you saying we should judge all characters and their actions based on our current lens of morals regardless of their setting and culture?

[Buffalobiian]

Grooming is the act of preparing a child so they're fuckable later.

This didn't happen, so there's no grooming.

Why is this ambiguous?

[shinta|hikari]

It isn't. Darth just misused the term. To be fair to him, it is constantly misused nowadays, like many other buzzwords.

[DarthEnderX]

Are you saying that authors that write about topics that are unethical or immoral based on our current lens as acceptable in their fictional world are bad?

I think if you take something from the real world that is generally considered bad, then create a fictional world where that bad thing is considered okay, and you expect the reader to be okay with it because it's okay in that world(i.e. it's not meant as a subversion, where you're trying to show the horrors of a world that approves of that bad thing) then the writer is basically endorsing that bad thing.

"I created a fantasy world that has lots of slavery and everyone is okay with it and it causes no issues!" Okay, cool. So you wrote a pro-slavery story.

It isn't. Darth just misused the term.

Correct. It's not technically grooming. But it doesn't make it okay. Because your interactions with them at a formative age could still have influenced their feelings towards you, whether you intended it or not. And entering into a romantic relationship with them later would still be leveraging those feelings to your advantage.

[Kraco]

Correct. It's not technically grooming. But it doesn't make it okay. Because your interactions with them at a formative age could still have influenced their feelings towards you, whether you intended it or not. And entering into a romantic relationship with them later would still be leveraging those feelings to your advantage.

If you aren't allowed to leverage any positive feelings to your advantage, how are you supposed to enter any marriage, aside from political/marriages of convenience? You are taking here a worst case possibility, that we haven't seen any sign of, and then stretching it to cover everything. Including that "Correct. It's not technically grooming. But..." As long as no clear grooming happened, nothing else matters. It's 100% Rudeus and Roxy's private matter. Well, in this case Sylphie's as well, like I've stated before.

We could also say that this couldn't even happen in our world because over here, Roxy would look like a middle-aged woman, so with the amount of interaction they did have, chances of Rudeus still remaining infatuated would be too low. Not to mention a normal kid wouldn't have become "permanently" infatuated in the first place. The decade of not seeing Roxy at all would have done its work. Kids, who don't even know what they are talking about, can become immaturely interested in much older kids/young adults all the time, but it will always pass as years go by. I suppose that's why authors can build drama around it in age gap fiction, where it doesn't pass.

[MFauli]

That's just an example. I mean the excuse of "it's a fictional world where they say that horrible thing is okay, so it makes that horrible thing okay" doesn't magically give it a pass, regardless of what travesty you want to plug in there.

For example, all the isekai that are like "We have slavery, and slavery is good and the slaves love being your slaves!" You don't just have to shrug and go "Oh well! That's that world!". Like, no! That's not just a reality that happened and you just have to accept it! Somebody WROTE that world to be that way! Someone sat down and created a world where people just love being slaves. And you don't have to give that writer a pass for that. Because it's fucking weird!

I'm not looking to "forbid" anything. I'm just not willing to cut a character slack just because an awful thing is a normal part of their world.

For example, Game of Thrones world has a lot of slavery. But GoT doesn't ever try and pretend that slavery is good. It's a bad thing that bad people profit from. It's a part of that world, but the stories don't pretend it's okay just because it's a part of that world.

Go back 150 years and slavery would have been LITERALLY okay in our real world and nobody would call it a bad thing (well, nobody but the slaves, although they probably had a lot of internalized self-depreciation, too). And then you have issues with a fantasy-story depicting slaves as something that's okay? Where some slaves are happy? I mean, if we take Shield Hero for example, the anime also depicted slavery as something that mistreats slaves. It's just that the hero treats his slave nicely. Ofc, the raccoon girl also is a dumb bitch who's falling in love with her master, lol.

In general, I really dislike your stance, because it's so limiting of creative freedom. As a creative freedom absolutist, I'd love to see more stories that break taboos which includes different depictions of age of consent. I mean, it's always weird when you have a fantasy world but SOMEHOW age of consent is 18 years old, "coincidentitally" the same as in a minority of US-states (it's actually 16 in most, and even lower in many European countries). We know from history that princesses were wed to older lords at the age of 11 or 12 and had sex then, too, as soon as it became aware that they were able to get pregnant. It was fucked up, sure. But why can't FICTION depict a story where age of consent is different? That's such a weird, prudish, authoritarian demand imo.

One of my favorite moments in manga is when near the end of Gantz, the heroes get to some alien planet where humans are eaten by giant aliens and it's the most normal thing. Fucked up, right? But extremely FASCINATING, too!

I just think that accusing the author of anything because of what he wrote is unfair. If you did that, then all those authors who wrote violent stories should be seen as potential murderers. Makes no sense, though. It's fiction.

I think if you take something from the real world that is generally considered bad, then create a fictional world where that bad thing is considered okay, and you expect the reader to be okay with it because it's okay in that world(i.e. it's not meant as a subversion, where you're trying to show the horrors of a world that approves of that bad thing) then the writer is basically endorsing that bad thing.

That's in insane take, wow. Fuck creative freedom, huh?

[David75]

The grooming we're talking about is still very common in every village of our planet, isn't it?

[Kraco]

The grooming we're talking about is still very common in every village of our planet, isn't it?

The grooming we are talking about never happened, so sure, haha.

[shinta|hikari]

That's in insane take, wow. Fuck creative freedom, huh?

I wouldn't go so far as insane, but it is a fairly extreme stance. Writing about something, even if you aren't critical or subversive about it, does not mean the author endorses it. It might just be a tool for the plot or really just something different for the sake of novelty. It can even be wish fulfillment like smut and other sex fantasies. That does not mean the author endorses these things in real life. Fiction is largely about escapism, after all.

[MFauli]

I wouldn't go so far as insane, but it is a fairly extreme stance. Writing about something, even if you aren't critical or subversive about it, does not mean the author endorses it. It might just be a tool for the plot or really just something different for the sake of novelty. It can even be wish fulfillment like smut and other sex fantasies. That does not mean the author endorses these things in real life. Fiction is largely about escapism, after all.

Like, every author or video game maker of violent projects would have to suspected for planning murder, lol. All those horror movies full of brutal, realistic gore => writers are psycho-killers in spe!!11 /s

Fiction ultimately is always about "what if ...", that's what makes it interesting. If we have a story where "grooming" is okay, where slavery is okay or where the age of consent is lower than irl, that makes for interesting scenarios, that allow stories to explore what it'd be like. ESPECIALLY when it's an isekai-story where someone from our real world is confronted with these different norms. And there shouldn't be any obligations on the writer to have the hero behave only one way.

Hero is reborn in world where slavery is okay. Now he can react in various ways:

- "OMG, are you insane? Slavery is wrong!!111"
- "Omg, this world is fucked up. I need to get back asap!"
- "Damn these people, I can't let this stay as is. Gotta find a way to end slavery, it's the right thing to do!"
- "Fuck, I'm powerless for now. But I can at least accept that slave the lord gave me and treat her well."
- "Well, this a different world. And having a servant isn't so bad."
- "Hm, now that I think about it, she's kinda cute. But I must behave." *slave girl falls in love with hero*
- "Wait, 'tis for real? And I'm allowed to do aaaaanything I want to her? BUENO...!"

And ANY of these should be okay to write, without accusing the author of anything. All these taboos are the reason why movies and video games are so goddamn boring nowadays. Heroes aren't even allowed to slap an unsuspecting girl on the butt anymore without outrage. Breaking taboos => more exciting stories <3

[DarthEnderX]

If you aren't allowed to leverage any positive feelings to your advantage

Leveraging positive feelings is fine.

Leveraging positive feelings that formed while they were a child, while you were an adult, isn't.

It can even be wish fulfillment like smut and other sex fantasies. That does not mean the author endorses these things in real life.

It wouldn't be wish fulfillment, if the author wasn't wishing for it.

- "Wait, 'tis for real? And I'm allowed to do aaaaanything I want to her? BUENO...!"

And ANY of these should be okay to write, without accusing the author of anything.

I would absolutely accuse the author of the last one of things.

[MFauli]

I would absolutely accuse the author of the last one of things.

If I wrote a story about a fictional world where "pedophilia" was okay, I'd do so only to challenge the readers' mind. It's a real issue that people like you would actually accuse me of being a REAL child abuser only for writing a FICTIONAL story.

And somehow you manage be blind to all other "problematic" topics when it comes to this line of thinking of yours. Are the developers of God of War dangerous psychos that want to brutalize other people? Rip their heads off? I doubt it ...

[Kraco]

It wouldn't be wish fulfillment, if the author wasn't wishing for it.

What's that ultra simplistic line out of nowhere? It's entertainment industry. The authors are writing what they believe their audience will want to swallow, hook, line, and sinker. Just like Hollywood did in the 80's and 90's, and we got the classic action film masterpieces. Nowadays, of course, Hollywood has forgotten it's supposed to be entertainment industry. It's something else. Ego industry might describe it.

[MFauli]

For the record, the only example of an author truly writing what he personaly desires is Made in the Abyss. The shit that happens there, especially at the start of season 2, was WAY too unnecessarily detailed and drawn out for it not be the author's fetish.

[DarthEnderX]

If I wrote a story about a fictional world where "pedophilia" was okay, I'd do so only to challenge the readers' mind. It's a real issue that people like you would actually accuse me of being a REAL child abuser only for writing a FICTIONAL story.

Except I literally included an exemption for that exact instance:

and you expect the reader to be okay with it because it's okay in that world(i.e. it's not meant as a subversion, where you're trying to show the horrors of a world that approves of that bad thing) then the writer is basically endorsing that bad thing.

If the author's intent is "The reader is supposed to think this is bad", then it's fine. If the author's intent is "I made this world cool with this because I want the reader to be cool with this", then the writer is absolutely endorsing it.

What's that ultra simplistic line out of nowhere? It's entertainment industry. The authors are writing what they believe their audience will want to swallow, hook, line, and sinker. Just like Hollywood did in the 80's and 90's, and we got the classic action film masterpieces. Nowadays, of course, Hollywood has forgotten it's supposed to be entertainment industry. It's something else. Ego industry might describe it.

I mean...I guess? They can be like "I'm not writing this pro-pedophilia story because I'm pro-pedophilia. I'm writing it because my audience is pro-pedophilia."

Like, okay. But if you're waiting for me to give you props for that, you'll be waiting a long time.

[MFauli]

Except I literally included an exemption for that exact instance:If the author's intent is "The reader is supposed to think this is bad", then it's fine. If the author's intent is "I made this world cool with this because I want the reader to be cool with this", then the writer is absolutely endorsing it.

But ... that's an absolutely bs take wtf. How do you not see the problem with such stance?!

[shinta|hikari]

It wouldn't be wish fulfillment, if the author wasn't wishing for it.

Aside from audience demand that Kraco already mentioned, wish fulfillment in fiction has nothing to do with actually intending or even wanting to do those things in real life. People know what is wrong to do in reality, so they turn to fiction for it. Equating what people enjoy in fiction to automatically equal something they will enjoy, condone, or even endorse in reality is baseless. Proof of this is everywhere.

To be clear, I am not saying there are no authors or people like what you describe. What I am saying is it definitely isn't necessarily true or even common, as such, we shouldn't lump them all together and accuse everyone of being depraved just because they know the difference between reality and fiction.

EDIT:
Some quick examples, since I did claim there is proof everywhere:
1. People who develop or play violent video games where violence is accepted and even glorified do not actually turn violent or even want to do violent things in real life. Because they aren't bloodthirsty psychopaths.
2. People who watch strange porn do not actually want tentacles to attack people in real life. Because that would be insane??
3. People who love Game of Thrones where for most of the show betrayal and lies reigned supreme do not actually betray or even want to lie to people around them. Because lying is bad.
4. People who love Shield Hero and see Raphtalia wanting to remain a slave don't actually want to own or be a slave in reality. Because enslaving real people is fucking evil.
5. People who love OP Isekai stories that build nations don't actually want to build their own nation. Because that is honestly too much responsibility and a huge pain. Easier just to go on the internet for dopamine.
6. People who play RPGs or CRPGs like DnD or Divinity OS2 and loot and murder entire populations in the game do not want to genocide in real life. Because they aren't fascist.
7. My wife wanted to add, people who read Omegaverse and werewolves fucking each other in the ass do not actually even want to see guys fucking each other in the ass in real life, not even in fully consensual, live action, non-furry porn. Because that is ew, apparently. Source: her lol. Anecdotal, but still one example.

These people just want to escape reality and try/enjoy different things in a harmless manner by using fantasy and imagination. It may be just curiosity, a passing fancy, or even a serious obsession. But as long as it stays in fiction, and it normally does, there is nothing wrong with that, and they should definitely not be accused of anything negative.

[Kraco]

I mean...I guess? They can be like "I'm not writing this pro-pedophilia story because I'm pro-pedophilia. I'm writing it because my audience is pro-pedophilia."

Like, okay. But if you're waiting for me to give you props for that, you'll be waiting a long time.

I don't believe I've ever read any pro-pedophilia stories, so I can't really judge it based on experience. During the last decade I've read helluva lot of isekai, just like this series, so I was mainly talking about it. 99% of it is shameless copy-pasta trash written for an audience always hungering for more. It's pure entertainment industry.

[DarthEnderX]

But ... that's an absolutely bs take wtf. How do you not see the problem with such stance?!

...nope.

If you write a story where a horrible thing is treated as fine. And your intent is for the reader to be fine with that. The takeaway is you want that horrible thing to be fine.

"I wrote a story where the Nazi won WW2 and took over the world."
"And everything is horrible, right?"
"Nope. It's a great world where everything worked out."

There's literally no other way to read that than "The author wished the Nazis won."

People who love Game of Thrones where for most of the show betrayal and lies reigned supreme do not actually betray or even want to lie to people around them. Because lying is bad.

GoT never tries to convince you that those people are good, or right. They're not good people just because they're winning. GoT wants you to be horrified by their actions.

7. My wife wanted to add, people who read Omegaverse and werewolves fucking each other in the ass do not actually even want to see guys fucking each other in the ass in real life, not even in fully consensual, live action, non-furry porn. Because that is ew, apparently. Source: her lol. Anecdotal, but still one example.

Lol!

These people just want to escape reality and try/enjoy different things in a harmless manner by using fantasy and imagination. It may be just curiosity, a passing fancy, or even a serious obsession. But as long as it stays in fiction, and it normally does, there is nothing wrong with that, and they should definitely not be accused of anything negative.

Nah. I'm still gonna judge them.

[shinta|hikari]

If you write a story where a horrible thing is treated as fine. And your intent is for the reader to be fine with that. The takeaway is you want that horrible thing to be fine.

To clarify, the intent is for the reader to be fine with that in the context of the fictitious story. If the author wants you to be fine with that in real life, that is horrible. Like say, if an author wrote a history book and glorified conquest and racial superiority.

But that is simply not how fiction works. See all the examples I mentioned already.

Also, a fictional world where the Nazis won and somehow everything turned peachy is very interesting to read. Whether the author can make it sound convincing enough to be believable is another story. But all this is okay because this is just fiction.

To reiterate, there are fictional authors who do shit like what you said (i.e. JK Rowling). But they are not common or even the majority of fiction writers. Just like writing a story from the POV of a villain, showing that they are people too and maybe even have good motivations, is not endorsing villainy. It is just an interesting and different piece of entertainment.

As for the GoT example, if doing bad things keep resulting in you winning (for most of the story anyway), it certainly paints the picture that being bad is desirable. But then again, the readers/viewers know it is fiction and won't be taking that as a lesson or something to emulate in real life. Because they know that fiction, as entertaining and stimulating as it is, is not reality.

Nah. I'm still gonna judge them.

You are of course free to do so, just like others may judge your close-minded and puritanical stance.