Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[DarthEnderX]

And then, hallelujah, after he LISTENED to someone, decided that killing Rudy was wrong!

I doubt she convinced him it was morally wrong. More likely she convinced him that leaving him alive might be useful.

You guys defending Orsted are so obviously wrong, it's hilarious.

It's not so much about defending Orstead as it is finding you guys' outrage to be really weird. A mysterious character showed up and tried to kill our heroes. Like, that's pretty common, but you guys are really pissed off at this guy for some reason.

Honestly, it kinda feels like we got some manga prophets who know more reasons to hate this guy...

If anything, I'm more pissed at Rudy, for ignoring Rujierd's "Do't do anything!" and almost getting everyone killed.

[MFauli]

but you guys are really pissed off at this guy for some reason.

Or for the reasons already mentioned.


PS: I haven't read the manga nor LN.

[KrayZ33]

Why are you ignoring that Orsted acted without knowing ANYTHING?
You guys defending Orsted are so obviously wrong, it's hilarious.

The only thing that is funny is your duality, as always, because in every other show you would complain about "letting the evil guy" stay alive or letting him take advantage of the situation, or trying to talk it out when the enemy is right in front of him
People don't start acting on only 100% guarantees. Not sure what the problem here is in a world where death is around every corner.

He asked questions, Rudeus made statements and also asked questions, he got information, he decided this information puts Rudeus as someone not to be trusted and makes quick work of him. Not sure why you just decided to completely ignore their conversation that made Rudeus look weird as hell (not just to Orsted, but to his companions as well). So much information was given there but you chose to ignore it I guess, just because it hasn't been said in words?
He is obviously a character that makes decision quickly and fast. Why? We don't know yet, maybe because he probably has made the experience that this is necessary or simply because he doesn't know any better as I could imagine that when the common exchange with other beings, even as strong as the Sperd is: "DON'T COME ANY CLOSER, WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU, GO AWAY" or when people run away from him all the time, I doubt he gets to know people properly?

If he is at "war" with Man-God, I don't see why he should leave the enemy alive in the first place. Does it really matter if Rudeus is working willingly or unwillingly for the enemy?

Orsted doesn't claim to be a good person or even a good guy. He could be evil or the good guy, he could be as mad as Laplace, Laplace on the other hand might not even be bad, other people tell us he is bad... but does that even amount to anything?
Again, we have absolutely no background information of what has happened to him or who he actually is.
If we already knew, this would be extremely boring by comparison. Getting to see a character and being able to judge him properly in the first 2 minutes of a show is a disappointment, nothing more.

It seems like you forgot that a good character in a story doesn't always have to act correctly or in a way you would do. Someone isn't "dumb" just because he acts rashly. Someone isn't dumb when he kills someone instead of knocking him out or whatever, neither is it necessarily evil. We know too little of the world, the characters, and the whole situation to make any decent judgement here.
We don't even know why he is where he is because he didn't start in an icy region, he was in some kind of Desert-Mountain area - alone as well - the first time we saw him in the show, as far as I remember.

[MFauli]

Acting rashly is a commonly agree dumb trait. Like, what are you on about.

[KrayZ33]

Acting rashly is a commonly agree dumb trait. Like, what are you on about.

Actually it's not, rofl, all you have to do is to give it a postive vibe/outcome and the same deed turns into "acting swiftly". And it's not "dumb" it's a character flaw. Negative traits aren't "dumb" traits, they are weaknesses.
But I see you are not really interested in a discussion anyway, as you ignored like all the points.

So don't bother unless you actually want to bring forth more than:
"XY is *dumb* because I don't agree with it"

Or are you confusing dumb with "bad" or something due to a language barrier? Honest question because non native english speakers like you and myself usually tend to use way harsher words "shit/fuck/dumb/idiot" when they actually mean something else, which is why I have to keep reviewing my posts to get the point across and not sound completely aggressive all the time.

Saying he is a fool is different from saying he is an idiot.
Saying he acted rashly is different from saying he is retarded.
Saying he is bonkers is different from saying he is brutal.

First and foremost though, you are currently doing what he was doing. Judging rashly without enough background information or in your case, willfully ignoring it even to some degree.
That's "dumb", if you get my drift.

[MFauli]

"Acting rashly" means you act without thinking, which leaves the outcome of your action up to the heavens. That is why it makes you dumb. You don't get to say its not dumb because it "could" have a positive outcome. Could have a negative outcome, too. You don't know, because you acted ... rashly.

The Orsted defense becomes worse and worse lol

[Kraco]

He didn't act rashly. He acted promptly, decisively, swiftly. Pick your choice. That's how your act if you are a fighter. Only a second-rate hunter licks his lips before pulling the trigger. Making the wrong decision in a fight is not the worst mistake: making no decision is the worst. That's how Rudeus acts, btw, because his soul is still the one of a Japanese civilian. Cliches aside, Orsted's on a mission to slay the Man-God and the Man-God's associates, which is exactly what he did. The fact he reversed his decision after hearing Nanahoshi out doesn't change anything. If the woman hadn't been there, Rudeus would have been left dead and Orsted would have walked away just as satisfied, having achieved what he wanted, which is a Man-God apostle killed, as far as Orsted is concerned.

[KrayZ33]

"Acting rashly" means you act without thinking, which leaves the outcome of your action up to the heavens. That is why it makes you dumb. You don't get to say its not dumb because it "could" have a positive outcome. Could have a negative outcome, too. You don't know, because you acted ... rashly.

The Orsted defense becomes worse and worse lol

I'm saying that you can't really differentiate between that and the same action with a positive outcome which is called "acting swiftly" if you have 0 understanding of the situation.
And no, it doesn't make you "dumb". It's a character weakness if it happens too often, as mentioned earlier.
As I mentioned earlier as well, humans don't act only after the outcome is 100% guaranteed.

Are you "dumb" because you judge Orsted without knowing anything about him?
You saw him act, and judge him without any consideration of what is actually happeneing or could be happening?
It's like you are getting to witness an ongoing fight and one of them shoots the other guy and you expect the guy shooting to be a killer, no matter what.
Please, for the love of god, expand your horizon and accept that not everything is like you think it is.

When it comes to books, stories, TV Shows, do you honestly expect everything that is happening is as obvious at it looks?
Are you kidding me?
Are you telling me you don't think every single word and action was placed intentionally?

The very fact that he acted after he heard Rudeus knows the Man-God already means something.
And not necessarily that he is dumb or rash or whatever, not even that he hates the Man-God.
It's a short cameo of a character that will obviously be important to the story at some point and you believe his actions were only meant to show how much of an idiot he is?

It's only when you actually understand that authors and directors use everything in these situations, to give you a lot of background information you have yet in front of you to be properly explained.
It can be as simple as a quirk that is later used to identify a character when it is needed.
It can be a certain action that hints at something in the past, or the lack of an action that hints to something as well.
Etc. etc. etc.

There have been so many details hidden in these answers and the following scene with the Man-God, that someone would be hard-pressed to not accept it as 100% intentional.

Mentioning the name of the masked character - which is japanese
Mentioning that otherworlders don't fear him (so he and the girl doesn't?)
Mentioning that there are curses affecting him (who did it to him, does he hate Man-God due to that?)
Mentioning that Man-God can't see him due to that curse (why??)
Mentioning of "Apostles"
The fact that Orsted knows about the Man-God showing up in dreams.
His reaction the calamity.
His comments on characters he has never met, even knowing their names.
Asking Rudeus to call the Man-God "BEFORE" he dies (if it was translated correctly)
His lack of knowledge about Rudeus, even though he seems to know everyone and everything else
Mentioning Laplace and being able to tell Rudy's mana reserves from his spell.
The fact that he summoned a dragon shield, has scale-like texture next to his eyes.
The fact that he noticed that Rudeus can look him into the eye.
Mentioning that he expects Rudy to know proper healing magic
The fact that they have shown the girl saying that something is bothering her.
The fact that the girl is wearing a mask
The fact that the Man-King knows so much about Ostred even though his curses seem to keep him away from Orsted
The fact that he revived the kid he just killed.

Anyway, when I wrote this down I rewatched the scene once more and noticed that the best girl, Eris, was swiping away Ruijerd's backpack right when the fight started so he could fight properly.
Yeah... let's pretend the Author/Director doesn't care about details. The list could've gone on for quite a bit.

[MFauli]

He didn't act rashly. He acted promptly, decisively, swiftly.

I meet you at night. I feel threatened. I instantly kill you. Oh, turns out you were just a peaceful fellow civilian. But I acted promptly, decisively, swiftly, so good me.

/s

[KrayZ33]

I meet you at night. I feel threatened. I instantly kill you. Oh, turns out you were just a peaceful fellow civilian. But I acted promptly, decisively, swiftly, so good me.

/s

"I meet someone at night, I've seen his kind 500 times already, they never shut up about their stupid Man-God, had to fight them every single time - they are strong, strong enough to hurt those around me, they killed my kin when I wasn't fast enough... this time I'm not taking chances."

just one out of a million alternatives that doesn't pretend the character is a white canvas and in a vacuum.

[David75]

Rudy really is not tuned to a world where you can lose your life over the wrong reaction/word.
He's not careful at all and speaks freely to someone he just meets when he was told to be shut up and not move.
I'll just remember that sequence of events as another lesson, just learn to read the atmosphere, listen to your close ones... or become strong enough you can deal with consequences.
Or somehow it shows how immature he is, regardless of his spiritual age.

Orsted is just a tool for that sequence of events. Please don't catfight around that, haha

[Ryllharu]

You guys defending Orsted are so obviously wrong, it's hilarious.

But it was such a cool 5 minute fight! And like, there was blood and stuff!

The badly written character interactions of the main cast and the truly ancient Generic Shonen cliché of the "fateful" (read: random with zero build up) encounter with powerspike bad guy from the series billed as the "Grandfather of Isekai" doesn't matter.


edit:
This episode was a significant step backward for a series that has otherwise actually lived up to its legend of quality.

And since it still isn't the actual first modern isekai (just in the shonen/seinen genres), I hold it to a significantly higher standard due to the reputation that its LN fans give it.

[Buffalobiian]

Rudy really is not tuned to a world where you can lose your life over the wrong reaction/word.
He's not careful at all and speaks freely to someone he just meets when he was told to be shut up and not move.

While I can agree that Rudy doesn't guard his mouth as well as he could, the "shut up and not move" advice he was given here is not based on sound logic.

Orsted has a curse on him that makes people fear or hate him without even knowing who he is or how strong he is. It's an irrational response. He's got Fear as a passive ability.

They're not actually fearing him because he's #2 or known to be lethal.

[shinta|hikari]

But when the strongest person in your party warns you of something, you should listen.

[DarthEnderX]

What's really going on here is MFauli sees himself in sex creep characters and feels attacked when they get curb stomped.

the truly ancient Generic Shonen cliché of the "fateful" (read: random with zero build up) encounter with powerspike bad guy from the series billed as the "Grandfather of Isekai" doesn't matter.

Uh, it's called a "wondering monster". A doi!

[KrayZ33]

But it was such a cool 5 minute fight! And like, there was blood and stuff!

The badly written character interactions of the main cast and the truly ancient Generic Shonen cliché of the "fateful" (read: random with zero build up) encounter with powerspike bad guy from the series billed as the "Grandfather of Isekai" doesn't matter.


edit:
This episode was a significant step backward for a series that has otherwise actually lived up to its legend of quality.

And since it still isn't the actual first modern isekai (just in the shonen/seinen genres), I hold it to a significantly higher standard due to the reputation that its LN fans give it.

Nah, I actually think it's the opposite and the whole encounter was written well. It's not a shonen trope either. It's a typical western book exposition as well and probably included in pretty much all the best-sellers and genre defining stories you can find.
If it's not a singular being like in Jobless, it's an overwhelming force that has to be overcome.
No need to belittle what is commonly used to get the audience hooked, even less need to belittle isekai or japenese story writers or LN fans for that matter. It's done that way because it works. And all the big-omega-chad book writers do it as well and in similar fashion.



What kind of build up do you expect from a build up though.
This is the build up to a future interaction and a new story arc, not some conclusion to it?
On top of that, it's a story written with a limited POV, we only get very little knowledge outside of Rudy's perspective. Which is the kind of story-type where this is very common as well.

What I hold high is that the typical trope of "look at this guy, he has beaten our tough guy easily, so he must be super strong" has been enhanced by additional world building and adding an overarching storyline to the whole thing.

[Kraco]

But it was such a cool 5 minute fight! And like, there was blood and stuff!

The badly written character interactions of the main cast and the truly ancient Generic Shonen cliché of the "fateful" (read: random with zero build up) encounter with powerspike bad guy from the series billed as the "Grandfather of Isekai" doesn't matter.


edit:
This episode was a significant step backward for a series that has otherwise actually lived up to its legend of quality.

And since it still isn't the actual first modern isekai (just in the shonen/seinen genres), I hold it to a significantly higher standard due to the reputation that its LN fans give it.

This was a pretty consistent event in Rudeus's life, and thus in the big picture of the whole series. He has found himself numerous times in a situation where he's no longer in control, where he's no longer the main character of the whole world. He just somehow had to get through them. Since you don't like how Orsted appeared out of nowhere to do significant things, I reckon you also don't like Ruijerd, who also super conveniently appeared out of nowhere to help Rudeus and Eris cross the demon continent. The emperor loli of the demon world also appeared out of nowhere and scooped an eye out of Rudeus head. In fact that encounter with Kishirika Kishirisu is quite similar to this with Orsted. In both Rudeus kind of had no control over the situation, yet it was he who started them, something very significant happened, but then it was all over very soon and the other party disappeared.

I don't know what exactly Ryll expected from this scene, but it was his expectations vs reality that failed, not the story. That's how I see it.

[KrayZ33]

good points there - let's face it.

Just like it's cool because there was blood in it.
it's cool to hate on stuff for no real reason.

[Ryllharu]

Since you don't like how Orsted appeared out of nowhere to do significant things, I reckon you also don't like Ruijerd, who also super conveniently appeared out of nowhere to help Rudeus and Eris cross the demon continent. The emperor loli of the demon world also appeared out of nowhere and scooped an eye out of Rudeus head.

I don't know what exactly Ryll expected from this scene, but it was his expectations vs reality that failed, not the story. That's how I see it.

What I expected? Better writing each time this happens. Orsted might as well have been a random ass red dragon. That would have been better, because they actually talked about it earlier in the episode. Yes, I am aware he is the "dragon god" he could have been literally anything or anyone else and it would not have made one fucking bit of difference. The fact that he turned around and saved him immediately for arbitrary reasoning from a different character with zero build up either is worse. This is the writing I would expect from Bleach, post-Soul Society when he had obviously run out of properly formed ideas.

I am consistent, yes.

Cons: The Ruijerd storyline. Zzzzzzzz.

Bad stuff first then. The Ruijerd storyline is suddenly and abruptly completely boring as shit. I don't care how you want to count Mushoku Tensei as the "godfather of isekai" the whole, 'You mustn't kill! Even the bad guys!?' plot thread is so old and trite at this point it's not even interesting.

Mushoku Tensei started in 2012/2014, and this trope was old in anime THEN. It was old in 1992 for Terminator 2. It was old in Dragon Ball. I'm honestly not even interested in seeing what (if anything), the series will attempt to do as a different spin. I feel like I've seen every possible iteration of the trope already, and it isn't even an interesting or compelling one to begin with.

It wasn't so much that they had a loli demon, it was the complete tonal shift she brought along.

From a generally grounded and well rooted series to Panty & Stocking type slapstick.

Her section felt like a bonus gaiden manga chapter that's either crossovers, deliberate continuity breaks for fun (e.g. All of the Black Lagoon ones), Momotaro, or Alice in Wonderland themed.

edit:

Just like it's cool because there was blood in it.
it's cool to hate on stuff for no real reason.

When MFauli and I actually agree on something like this, you should reconsider the depth of your own opinion.

[KrayZ33]

snip

Who are these god-tier writers you read that do better?
Why do you have these expectations, or rather, from whom?

Whether it's Orsted that shows up like this, or the powerful Jedi that is called Yoda on a remote planet that can teach MC to defeat the big bad guy.
You don't have to avoid tropes at all cost. What exactly was the problem? That is what I still don't get because so far it feels like you hate the story telling device because you realized it is a story telling device, but after reading and seeing movies alot, that's what happens naturally.

The fact that he turned around and saved him immediately for arbitrary reasoning from a different character with zero build up either is worse.

There is no objectively false/poor writing with this. How does that reaction even require build up and is not part of building the character itself?
Why do you seek explanations for everything that happens the second it happens?
How does it not make you wonder what the girl could've said?

As for Demon Goddess and Ruijerd.
Do people even realize that the Man-God lead Rudy to them? They don't really appear out of no where without any build up either due to that, or rather, they exist in this world and Rudy is sheepishly following advice from someone he knows nothing about.
And I fail to see why people always want the most common "every day" character as their preferred archtype.
That's super boring. I don't want to look at a bunch of every-day people. I want to see people that have special interest or special points of views.
i.e. "a normal being would have killed the Emperor and Darth Vader here to end the suffering" - f- that. That's not interesting. Is it? The hero is a hero because he is not normal. The villain is a villain because he is not normal.

This scene has some effect that is different from the effect it would have when they met in a bar. And that is all there is to it.


edit:

When MFauli and I actually agree on something like this, you should reconsider the depth of your own opinion.

Oh wow. Seriously? Oh my, oh my. I have you know that you are quite similar to him in a lot of ways, more so than you'd potentially like, especially whenever something comes up you dislike or like as there is no way to convince you otherwise and not even an attempt to see the other side. I will admit that I'm similar in that regard, but at least I'm not purposefully ignoring things that counter my argument and seek to find what the intention was when something happens. Or if I unknowingly do, maybe we should just accept that this are mere opinions no matter what and no one has to reconsider anything. Maybe you should just stop to belittle whatever you don't agree with (like you did just now, or did you not?) and we would be much further ahead in this discussion.

The irony of his comment still stands there right on this page, the other (which was a random attack out of nowhere where he somehow thought I was talking in first person or something) has been removed, sadly.
Talking about how "dumb" it is to judge something when in fact he does the same.
You on other hand, I have to say, didn't bring forth much other than "this is bad writing" for this scene in particular.

For example

Yes, I am aware he is the "dragon god" he could have been literally anything or anyone else and it would not have made one fucking bit of difference.

Was that supposed to say something to underline your point of view? Why did you even mention it?
He is called Dragon God, there are sword and combat styles that are called after them, as we have seen with Paul and some other minor villains so far. If he is one of such, it does at least tell me something and does make a difference.
Stop giving shit to something were it isn't due and I'm fine with it already.