Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[Kraco]

Then how did high morals ever come into existence in the first place if trying to act better always meant death?

When a society develops and gets stable enough, when there are enough officials and the order of law is strictly enforced. Revenge is institutionalised, which means courts of law are dealing out punishments to criminals, not those who were wronged personally. We can't have modern, productive societies if every single person needed to keep themselves trained and equipped to fight for their lives every single day. So, we have the police forces do it instead, while the majority of the population can study and do other work and business. It requires the vast majority of the population subscribes to this order that people can stick to high morals and consider ethics to function in everyday lives.

When the order is removed, like when a neighbouring country attacks, people have no choice but to kill before they are killed.

Btw, I already said it, but I'm not trying to sat Rudeus should become ruthless and kill every wrongdoer. I'm merely saying he needs to be ready to take a life, when there's no other realistic choice. Unfortunately the situations are usually such that you don't have more than a fraction of a second to make the decision. Similarly, he can't become shocked stiff when he sees people lose their lives. Because he's going to keep seeing it, no doubt.

[KrayZ33]

High morals won't do you much good if you are lying dead in a ditch. If your encounters have no qualms about killing you, what choice do you have but act in a similar way in a critical situation? The only other choice is to die. Maybe much, much later when Rudeus is an OP character, should he ever be, he can afford to ignore lowlifes trying to kill him or those in his company. But that day is still far off.

The thing is, this wasn't a critical situation at all.
Even Rudeus was super calm after he got kicked, because he knew there would be no follow up and him getting hit was him being careless.
The situation escalated with them killing their leader.

What?!


And just for the record: these 'lowlives' never tried to kill them. *They* sneak-attacked them. Considering how shocked they reacted when their leader was killed, I doubt that they're murderer.

No need to make it sound like they stabbed them in the back either, lol.

They apprehended them, that's all.

[Kraco]

The thing is, this wasn't a critical situation at all.

I'm talking about the bigger picture. Rudeus hasn't accepted, at all, that he might need to kill people in self-defence and that people might die as a consequence of his actions. Just compare Eris and Rudeus's reaction to the dude dying in this episode: Eris knows it's a rough world and people die, Rudeus believes he can retain the part of being a perfectly peaceful Japanese, even in the new world with considerably less order and civilization. I'm not blaming him for finding it difficult, but it's something he needs to come to terms with.

It's obvious there was no need to kill the guy in this case. I've said it already earlier.

[Buffalobiian]

Rudy was okay with Eris's kidnappers dying by Ghislaine. He still gets shocked when blood pisses everywhere, but doesn't exactly argue about the necessity of dicing them up in that instance.

I think Rudy's mindset is fairly calibrated right now.

Eris's initial reaction today was more "Beheading is a bit much, but whatever". She only really started caring about the whole thing when Ruijerd was causing trouble for Rudy. Then she pointed out that kicking kids is not terrible.

[neflight86]

Seeing as the superd is a no-nonsense kind of guy that doesn't seem to take sarcasm or jokes beyond face value (at least, that's how I view him after staring down the frog-man), bug-guy saying "I'll kill you!" before kicking Rudeus may have well triggered something akin to the fight or flight response, as he may have believed that person/creature would now 'mark' and stalk-to-kill his child-charge going forward- hence he needed to be put down. Does it make full rational sense? No. Is the superd guy playing with a full deck of cards? Also, no. His zeal towards his goals and inflexibility in his thinking is going to cause problems for their group, and Rudeus now understands that. That is what I think Rudy realized and caused some change in his attitude, as he has also stubbornly decided to help him with his people's PR and will not back out due to his own pride, or perhaps kindred suffering of being an outcast for so long.

Rudeus isn't trying to be above or below local morality- he's trying to get Eris home safely. Since the beginning, he has been a goal-oriented person, and his hand-to-mouth mindset (like earning money) is all in service of returning home.

Stealing and 'rescuing' pets is a pretty good and low risk racket, truth be told. Interesting that once you get too high in ranking, you apparently can no longer take lower rank quests?

Flamboyant god gets no love from chunky man Rudeus, but still gives out the goods. A true Chad.

[KrayZ33]

Flamboyant god gets no love from chunky man Rudeus, but still gives out the goods. A true Chad.

I'm sitting here, expecting this to change everytime he opens his mouth. I simply can't see him as "a good guy" and I wonder if he will somehow gain something from all this.
He is the "god of man", that kinda implied that there is a god for every race... and I'm starting to get "Divinity Original Sin 2"-vibes

[Kraco]

Rudeus isn't trying to be above or below local morality- he's trying to get Eris home safely. Since the beginning, he has been a goal-oriented person, and his hand-to-mouth mindset (like earning money) is all in service of returning home.

That's true. I shouldn't have talked about high morals. He's merely uncomfortable with death due to his background. However, he's pretty sleazy otherwise, as we have seen a number of times. He's definitely not trying to be any pinnacle of morals.

[MFauli]

I'm sitting here, expecting this to change everytime he opens his mouth. I simply can't see him as "a good guy" and I wonder if he will somehow gain something from all this.
He is the "god of man", that kinda implied that there is a god for every race... and I'm starting to get "Divinity Original Sin 2"-vibes

Dont know that game, but yeah, that god doesnt come across as trustworthy at all. I always keep thinking "this time Rudy is fucked". Especially because he acts so rude. Then again, acting rude or not is meaningless in the face of an almighty, all-knowing god.

[neflight86]

That's true. I shouldn't have talked about high morals. He's merely uncomfortable with death due to his background. However, he's pretty sleazy otherwise, as we have seen a number of times. He's definitely not trying to be any pinnacle of morals.

At least the world building and characters are fleshed out enough to support meaningful discussion of these topics, though as Ryll pointed out, the premise "other world morals" dichotomy itself is a bit old hat by now for seasoned consumers of media like ourselves. Now that were getting more regular depictions of normalized slavery, adultery/polyamory, rape, and other taboo societal counter culture (also known as 'edgy') isekai since Goblin Slayer and Shield Hero, there is certainly more meat on that bone when it comes to discussion in our humble little corner of the internet.

[KrayZ33]

Dont know that game, but yeah, that god doesnt come across as trustworthy at all. I always keep thinking "this time Rudy is fucked". Especially because he acts so rude. Then again, acting rude or not is meaningless in the face of an almighty, all-knowing god.

Ah... well, basically, without spoiling too much, when you play that game, there is a god-like being that seems to be helping you and makes you his "chosen one", but you really feel like he is doing something to help himself everytime he shows up. I'm not going to say if he's actually genuine or not, but they have written that character in a way that makes you feel very uneasy and you always ask yourself... "Should I actually do that? Should I not? Why does he tell me this?" because in that game, you can actually choose to not do things or to betray people and stuff like that, so interactions with characters have meaning and can lead to completely different sub-plots.

It's the same with this guy. As a god, there is always a reason as to why he/she/it is considered a god. Power, the goodness of his heart, or even the opposite. There are good and bad gods. Sometimes, they aren't even "truely" gods but were actually once mortal themselves that aquired demi-god/godlike status through other means.
As the god of man, he already limits himself to a specific range of power. He is not omnipotent like the christian god for example.
That could already mean that he has his own agenda, he even tells us that he has no direct power over a certain area. Saying that the "wicked dragon god" is way better at reincarnation stuff than him.
But his "odd" behaviour and way of talk could all be a red hering too. Maybe he is just quirky and actually benevolent.

At the same time however, corrupting and manipulating starts with gaining trust, and the line "you took my advice and it got you XXX" or "it helped you out, didn't it?" which is what he said is absolutely going into that direction.

His scenes are quite interesting overall, it was the first time I heard, or at least realized that someone said it, that he is in a "six-sided world" (6 sides similar to a dice?) And with that I'm already thinking about "gods" playing with that dice. Maybe every god has his own token. Maybe the Dragon God made that absurd guy who faced a dragon on his own, his. Maybe there are 4 others, we already saw the self proclaimed "Demon Princess" (or was it Queen?) - maybe that's another token etc. etc.
It's fishy that it all started after the calamity, not before, either.
What was that calamity anyway - and that thing in the sky? It summoned something - according to that "angel" race in the sky fortress?

edit: jesus christ, now that I think about it, that is all so cool.
All these unknown players still to discover. We aren't even remotely at the top of the chain yet.
Lord Perugius watching over Laplace, two historic characters in that world, still alive. Laplace obviouly not out of the game yet either and only sealed away.
And that masked minion of Lord Perugius who fought Ghislaine with ease, with his own kind of "magic" that bolted away in a flash of (holy?) light when the calamity was about to start etc.

[Munsu]

I'm sad that it seems like we won't be getting the OP song again by the looks of it. The one we got this time around was quite nice, still miss the original one.

[DarthEnderX]

When a society develops and gets stable enough, when there are enough officials and the order of law is strictly enforced.

Except...those things are the RESULT of attempting to live with higher morals. Not the cause.

People don't just spontaneously develop laws in a kill-or-be-killed civilization. Someone has to actually look around and decide "You know, maybe we can do better than this kill-or-be-killed" thing. It happens when people strive to be BETTER than their current situation should allow.

He is the "god of man", that kinda implied that there is a god for every race... and I'm starting to get "Divinity Original Sin 2"-vibes

I was about to be like "They JUST told us there's one god for Men, one for Demons and one for Dragons." But that was Dragon Quest this week.

[Kraco]

Except...those things are the RESULT of attempting to live with higher morals. Not the cause.

People don't just spontaneously develop laws in a kill-or-be-killed civilization. Someone has to actually look around and decide "You know, maybe we can do better than this kill-or-be-killed" thing. It happens when people strive to be BETTER than their current situation should allow.

I have the opposite opinion. People can afford to have high morals when they are safe and among their own kind. Society is necessary for achieving things greater than individuals alone can create. Of course rulers as well don't want their subjects to slaughter each other, thus reducing tax income and manpower available. The early civilizations already had the basic laws to make sure a society can be productive and capable of warfare. However, until the very recent centuries, people remained savage. Public shaming and executions were popular spectacles. Torture was commonplace. Foreigners from far away were all considered savages, not necessarily even humans. And so forth.

[DarthEnderX]

I have the opposite opinion. People can afford to have high morals when they are safe and among their own kind.

How could you EVER be safe if you live in a kill-or-be-killed world and NOBODY tries to rise above it?

You can't have society until someone decided NOT to kill every potential threat or competition for resources, because everyone around you is always those thing.

[Kraco]

How could you EVER be safe if you live in a kill-or-be-killed world and NOBODY tries to rise above it?

You can't have society until someone decided NOT to kill every potential threat or competition for resources, because everyone around you is always those thing.

Uh... I just explained it in the post. It's not a kill or be killed world if laws forbid random killings and the culprits, if caught, are heavily punished. You don't need jolly morals for that part. It's the primary necessity for humans to live in a functional group. It's pure practicality.

[DarthEnderX]

Uh... I just explained it in the post. It's not a kill or be killed world if laws forbid random killings and the culprits, if caught, are heavily punished. You don't need jolly morals for that part. It's the primary necessity for humans to live in a functional group. It's pure practicality.

I'm getting confused cause you're making the same "protag needs to act like their old morality doesn't matter anymore" arguments in this thread, the spider thread and the slime thread at the same time...

[Kraco]

I'm getting confused cause you're making the same "protag needs to act like their old morality doesn't matter anymore" arguments in this thread, the spider thread and the slime thread at the same time...

I assure you, I'm twice as confused as you are!

Actually, I wouldn't go that far. None of the main characters would live happily if they entirely let go of their old morals, but if sticking to them too religiously results in their own death or deaths of those important to them, then it's obviously no good.

In a more peaceful manner, this is a problem in international trade in RL. In many countries corruption is a stable part of life and economy. In others, it's a severe crime and regularly being inspected if suspected. So when Company A from a less corrupt country tries to land a deal in a corrupt nation, are they supposed to use bribes or not? If they don't and Competitors B, C, and D do, Company A is automatically out before the negotiations even started. The competitors grow stronger and ultimately might push Company A into a bankruptcy. However, if Company A does use bribes, they stay in the competition and thrive. However, the bribes would go against the ethics of the company, plus against the laws of their home country. I have tended to think that in Rome, do as the Romans do, but it's a difficult question.

[Ryllharu]

Mushoku Tensei - 11 (Season 1 End)



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I really do like the way fighting styles are all portrayed in this series.
- Ruijerd's is very swift, with straight lines, thrusts both fist and spear, with overwhelming power.
- Ghislaine's is hard to tell, but with absolute blinding speed darting back and forth across the battlefield.
- Eris' is just phenomenally beautiful, spins and whirls and overbearing power strikes that hit like lightning. Evasive spins, but straight line attacks. Her situation awareness even when she gets hit or forced to dodge is spot on. Saving herself from being swatted away into a spin by stabilizing herself with a sword slash on the tree? Neat.
- Paul has a really nice mix of everything. He's not particularly powerful in any given style, but the ones he is proficient in, he switches between them with effortless balance to do offense and defense. It is noticeable in his stances.

Honestly, I don't think we've seen such varied styles with such dead-on consistent representation since the stuff in maybe Mai-Otome of all things. Shonen battle tournament series do thematic powers, but in actual combat styling they tend to fall short. They often don't show you anything and just flash through the attacks, they increasingly become generic swordplay, or they increasingly focus on the superpowers and not the actual weapons. Kimetsu no Yaiba is a good example of the third. The techniques are unique and cool, but you kind of lose the sense that they'd actually use a sword without the special attacks over time. Fate Etc. is a good example of the second.
(edit: Katanagatari and Air Master both do swordplay/combat pretty well too as counter examples)

[MFauli]

I don't remember Paul fighting, but agreed for the rest. This anime's battle animation really is fantastic. Makes me want to have a video game based on it.

I wished they'd show a world map regularily, because I currently have no idea from where to where they're traveling. Asura kingdom, ok, whatever.

Rudy's reaction to being at fault for the death of 2 people was lacking, although that's a common fault with anime as I recently mentioned. I had hoped he'd be more shocked and maybe desperately try to use his healing powers on the dead kid. But nah, nothng, just a little feeling bad about it.

The montages at the beginning and ending of the episode are genius. It's really been ages that a fantasy anime shows the actualy journey. Most anime would just end an episode with "we're going to Asura kingdom!" and then start the next episode in front of Asura kingdom's city walls. I wish more anime would follow Mushoku's lead here.

Oh, and: ALMOST went the whole episode without perv stuff, but the outro just had to sneak it in, lol.

[Ryllharu]

Rudy's reaction to being at fault for the death of 2 people was lacking, although that's a common fault with anime as I recently mentioned. I had hoped he'd be more shocked and maybe desperately try to use his healing powers on the dead kid. But nah, nothng, just a little feeling bad about it.

I prefer the way they handled it here.

What they showed is shock. That's what it looks like. Not dramatized hollywood bullshit.

Rudy is in actual shock that he let someone die in a ham-fisted attempt to improve their reputation by arriving at a heroic moment. He's not Ghislaine after all (and even she barely made it at full speed). It's a much better delivery having him reflect on it completely internally, not even to the audience, until much later after they've left the city and there's actually time to think about it.

The kid was severed in half, then smacked hard against a petrified tree. There's no healing from that, even if they haven't actually established how powerful healing is. Our only frame of reference was Eris taking an absolutely brutal beating which took a considerable time to heal, brought her teeth back, and I'm not entirely sure he healed her all the way at the time.

Same with the other guy. By the time they were done with the snake, he was gone.

As for "just feeling bad about it"? No. Rudy changed his ways after this. He thought he was clever, adult in a kid's body. Knows how the world works. But he's still really, really bad with interpersonal stuff. Now he's changing. He's not a super genius, all-knowing in strategy. He knows that now. He agreed to consult with others from now on. That's growth.