Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[shinta|hikari]

I won't butt in this whole debate, but I would like to clarify that the phrase "nekomi wo osou" fits the definition of rape in western societies. The literal meaning is to attack someone while they are asleep, but the whole Japanese phrase is generally understood as sexually assaulting a sleeping person.

To be fair, that exact phrase is sometimes used for comedic effect in a lot of ecchi anime, but the whole paragraph in this episode clearly does not imply that. Right after that phrase, "純潔を散らし" (junketsu wo chirashi) was used, which roughly means taking someone's virginity in a forceful/dishonorable way. The phrase literally translates to "scattering purity", so it does not imply a calm nor romantic encounter. But most of all, it definitely wasn't socially acceptable in their world because the statement after that said Paul fled his dojo due to what he did. The structure of the paragraph very clearly indicates that his actions forced him to escape.

[DarthEnderX]

See, NOW I'll believe a random guy on a message board, since their information confirms my preconceptions!

Savor my hypocrisy!

[David75]

Would it be possible to clean that thread from rape/incest/etc... arguments ?
We get it every season or more.
It's more or less variations on the same topic with nothing to gain or lose.
Except it becomes anoying and criples show threads.
I'm not against those discussions.
Just that it goes way too far now.
But that just how it feels to me after all.

[Munsu]

I won't butt in this whole debate, but I would like to clarify that the phrase "nekomi wo osou" fits the definition of rape in western societies. The literal meaning is to attack someone while they are asleep, but the whole Japanese phrase is generally understood as sexually assaulting a sleeping person.

To be fair, that exact phrase is sometimes used for comedic effect in a lot of ecchi anime, but the whole paragraph in this episode clearly does not imply that. Right after that phrase, "純潔を散らし" (junketsu wo chirashi) was used, which roughly means taking someone's virginity in a forceful/dishonorable way. The phrase literally translates to "scattering purity", so it does not imply a calm nor romantic encounter. But most of all, it definitely wasn't socially acceptable in their world because the statement after that said Paul fled his dojo due to what he did. The structure of the paragraph very clearly indicates that his actions forced him to escape.

Such a controversial passage. I looked in the LN how it was translated, and you don't get the impression that he attacked her, but that it indeed was a dishonorable act (as you also mention that possibility).

But translators/editors in LNs are the same as in anime, varied in quality.

Still we're getting the impression from a secondary source (Rudeus), and his impression of how he understood it. That said, he's probably giving us the modern context of how the action would be interpreted by us in the modern world. And Rudeus is no saint.

I went to check the raw of the WN, and Rudeus is fairly blatant that he considered Lilia's account as rape (I think)... it included the phrase: レイプに浮気。パウロはクズだ。(from Google: Reipu ni uwaki. Pauro wa kuzuda. - "Cheating on rape. Paul is a waste". [not sure what "Cheating on rape" could mean]). I bring this part because in the LN translation there's no allusion to this aspect, not sure if it was removed from the LN itself, or just omitted in the translation... actually, I think the LN translated it as "He was a cheater and a womanizer"... how do you get that from "Reipu", and with that in mind, did things change once the LN came out vs the WN in this particular regard (don't have access to that raw)?

After all of this, I don't know what the author was going for after checking everything. Like in some way yes, she lost her virginity, not in the best of ways, but not necessarily rape either... but at the same time, others may appreciate the event as rape (and various aspects points towards that). Maybe that was the intention, the gray area where an event is not clear cut, and at the same time using a different meaning on some of the words used in the phrases in controversy can depict a different thing altogether; "attack" vs "to make a sudden visit" vs "swoon" (maybe?) for example.

Not a fan of discussing things not found in the anime (yet), I mean technically breaking rules here... but fuck it, but I find this quite interesting... who has it right (anime or LN)? I mean these are all from official sources.

Would it be possible to clean that thread from rape/incest/etc... arguments ?
We get it every season or more.
It's more or less variations on the same topic with nothing to gain or lose.
Except it becomes anoying and criples show threads.
I'm not against those discussions.
Just that it goes way too far now.
But that just how it feels to me after all.

I can agree with this, but... I want to know what's the correct translation, and if there's only one real interpretation to it. We have to get to the bottom of this! LOL

But honestly, I feel with this series in particular it would be inevitable. But the discussion does indeed go too far as you say in many occasions. Not sure what the correct answer to THAT is.

[MFauli]

I won't butt in this whole debate, but I would like to clarify that the phrase "nekomi wo osou" fits the definition of rape in western societies. The literal meaning is to attack someone while they are asleep, but the whole Japanese phrase is generally understood as sexually assaulting a sleeping person.

To be fair, that exact phrase is sometimes used for comedic effect in a lot of ecchi anime, but the whole paragraph in this episode clearly does not imply that. Right after that phrase, "純潔を散らし" (junketsu wo chirashi) was used, which roughly means taking someone's virginity in a forceful/dishonorable way. The phrase literally translates to "scattering purity", so it does not imply a calm nor romantic encounter. But most of all, it definitely wasn't socially acceptable in their world because the statement after that said Paul fled his dojo due to what he did. The structure of the paragraph very clearly indicates that his actions forced him to escape.

Did you learn Japanese, shinta? If you know the language better than me, I can accept that. But where do you get your first statement from that 寝込みを襲う is generally understood as 'rape'? You're saying it literally means that, but that's only when you choose the least likely options to choose for 襲う here. Now, I don't know every Japanese phrase, that's why I ask if you've studied Japanese.

Because this is what a Japanese dictionary translates 寝込みを襲う as:
https://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/...A5%B2%E3%81%86

"To surprise someone in their sleep", exactly what I translated it as before.

純血をちらし also is much less dramatic as you make it sound, that's just Japanese being the flowery language it always is. I just recently learnt 鼻くそ which means 'snot' - but literally, it's 'nose shit'. That's how Japanese is.

Nobody has said that Paul didn't do somethimg shady, but unless you claim to be a Japanese expert (something that I've been learning the language for over a decade to eventually become one), I think there's nothing in the anime that goes beyond the following:

- Paul sneaked into the girls' dorm at night
- he surprise Lilia in her sleep
- they had sex, during which Lilia lost her virginity
- Paul was chased away because the above was against the dojo rules

Whether there's rape involved or not simply isn't mentioned. And we know that Lilia likes Paul, she chose to become his maid and she seduced him while working there, her own words.

If there's rape involved, that would be a later revelation, but from this episode, it is NOWHERE to be found.

If DarthEnderX ridicules and dismisses this posting again I'm just gonna kms, because I can't handle people who dismiss a calm, factual posting like this one. If someone has a greater understanding of Japanese and the above phrases, then I'll listen, because I want to become better. But nothing I translated myself nor saw in Japanese dictionaries indicated rape.

[David75]

I can agree with this, but... I want to know what's the correct translation, and if there's only one real interpretation to it. We have to get to the bottom of this! LOL

But honestly, I feel with this series in particular it would be inevitable. But the discussion does indeed go too far as you say in many occasions. Not sure what the correct answer to THAT is.

Flame Pitt revival with a dedicated thread maybe ?

[MFauli]

Ok, I asked someone who just successfully earned himself the JLPT N1 result. He watches the anime and reads the LN. While he's an idiot who refuses to separate anime and LN, at least in the LN Paul seems to have raped Lilia.

The key phrase in the LN is 無理矢理, which means he did it forcibly. So by all means, he raped her. The reason why I believe they changed it in the anime, though, wasn't because of rape per say, but because the LN makes it sound like the typical h-doujin rape bs, where the victim ends up falling in love with the rapist, lol. To be more concrete, in the LN Lilia says "I didnt hate it" and wonders if this is what they call "romantic". Honestly, the LN version is just dumb.

The anime doesn't have that, however, so I stand by my translation of "nekomi o osou". It not being rape in the anime makes more sense, otherwise the story would need to go down a whole other rabbit hole, where you'd have to explain why Lilia chose to work as a maid for her rapist and even seduced him into more sex later on. That's some psychological trauma then that you couldn't excuse anymore and then Lilia or Paul would absolutely have to leave the house.

[Munsu]

Ok, I asked someone who just successfully earned himself the JLPT N1 result. He watches the anime and reads the LN. While he's an idiot who refuses to separate anime and LN, at least in the LN Paul seems to have raped Lilia.

The key phrase in the LN is 無理矢理, which means he did it forcibly. So by all means, he raped her. The reason why I believe they changed it in the anime, though, wasn't because of rape per say, but because the LN makes it sound like the typical h-doujin rape bs, where the victim ends up falling in love with the rapist, lol. To be more concrete, in the LN Lilia says "I didnt hate it" and wonders if this is what they call "romantic". Honestly, the LN version is just dumb.

The anime doesn't have that, however, so I stand by my translation of "nekomi o osou". It not being rape in the anime makes more sense, otherwise the story would need to go down a whole other rabbit hole, where you'd have to explain why Lilia chose to work as a maid for her rapist and even seduced him into more sex later on. That's some psychological trauma then that you couldn't excuse anymore and then Lilia or Paul would absolutely have to leave the house.

Well, you're talking about sections in the LN that haven't been adapted yet (it may never be, since that passage was right before the Rudeus' narration). That's why I mentioned a few times that we've only been seeing this from Rudeus' POV and how he interpreted it.

And I don't know if the person you talked to was reading the LN or the WN, because the LN translation is much softer... so I don't know if the source of the LN is different from what we saw in the WN, and in that particular passage, there's no talk about forcing...more like sneaking in (translation, even the google translation of that passage in the WN gives that connotation).

But all we have to go on is on how the anime wants to portray it, and on that regard everything is against Paul, but again... we're at the mercy of translating/editing choices.

I'll leave things at that, and hopefully the anime will bring more clarity at some point.

[MFauli]

What does WN mean? Wisual Novel? ;>

[shinta|hikari]

Did you learn Japanese, shinta? If you know the language better than me, I can accept that. But where do you get your first statement from that 寝込みを襲う is generally understood as 'rape'? You're saying it literally means that, but that's only when you choose the least likely options to choose for 襲う here. Now, I don't know every Japanese phrase, that's why I ask if you've studied Japanese.

Yes, I studied Japanese language for one year in Tokyo when I lived as an exchange student there. I also continued my study in my country's University and on my personal time. I did translations for some fansubs back when they were a thing, including Gotwoot Subs, actually. I also translated manga and sound episodes for fun for a while. Since I mostly consume Japanese media, I never really got rusty and only expanded my vocabulary and cultural understanding since.

I am sincerely not backing any argument in the thread. I just felt I needed to provide the most accurate translation of that monologue.

WN means Web Novel, which was the original material from the author until he published it in LN format. WNs are usually hosted in a web novel posting site, and the chapters are usually released one at a time, like a serialized story.

It is also very common for language and story to be toned down in LN vs WN. WNs basically have no editors and very little rules about their content. LNs will have to submit to the rules of the publisher and their market regulations.

[Munsu]

Yes, I studied Japanese language for one year in Tokyo when I lived as an exchange student there. I also continued my study in my country's University and on my personal time. I did translations for some fansubs back when they were a thing, including Gotwoot Subs, actually. I also translated manga and sound episodes for fun for a while. Since I mostly consume Japanese media, I never really got rusty and only expanded my vocabulary and cultural understanding since.

I am sincerely not backing any argument in the thread. I just felt I needed to provide the most accurate translation of that monologue.

WN means Web Novel, which was the original material from the author until he published it in LN format. WNs are usually hosted in a web novel posting site, and the chapters are usually released one at a time, like a serialized story.

It is also very common for language and story to be toned down in LN vs WN. WNs basically have no editors and very little rules about their content. LNs will have to submit to the rules of the publisher and their market regulations.

To add to that, in many ways the web novel can be considered a first draft.

[Kraco]

Too bad this whole thing is making me look down on the author. It would be one thing if Paul's crime was basically managing to cajole Lilia into an illicit sexual relationship, which would damage her reputation and prospects in life. It's another thing if it's pure physical rape. Not from Paul's pov, he's a scumbag either way, but from Lilia's. Like Mfauli already said, this basically means she's indeed now one of those unrealistic ero-manga women who's raped until she mysterious starts liking it and falls for the faceless rapist.

There are all sorts of broken people even in RL, even women who voluntarily travelled from Western countries to become "wives" for the animals working for Isis, but was it really necessary to make Lilia mental like that? Especially when she otherwise doesn't display deranged behavior (she's even disgusted by Rudy's lecherous looks, yet at the same time she fell for a man who raped her, huh? Huh?). When you look at how she is, you'd think she actually accepted Paul's approach, against her better judgement (made a mistake, like it's called), had to suffer because of it, but still can't forget Paul and thus decided to stay close to him by working in the same adventuring party and then as a maid for his household. Didn't she work in the same party? I seem to recall something like that. This sort of scenario would be perfectly realistic also in RL.

Author is what he is, but perhaps the LN editor (if such a thing exists) should have said something about it. The anime director might have also wanted to spend 20 seconds to think about it.

[Munsu]

Since we're a small group of people watching, any interest in all the passages in LN (in this volume and a future extra chapter)? I can provide it.

If we all can agree on it, despite the spoiler rules (though honestly, not much of a spoiler just different takes on what we've learned so far in the anime all told), I have no problem uploading the screen shots of the passages in the LN translation. But again, we're subjected to that translation's interpretation.

So, what do you guys think? I can also pm it if anyone cares, but if not all agree, can't be discussed in this thread and we'll just let the matter rest and continue with the rest of the show. There's only so much we can discuss on this lol.

Edit: Actually, I'm probably going to take David's suggestion and post it all in the Flame Pit later. And take that discussion there.

Well, let me know either way.

[DarthEnderX]

If it's stuff the anime has already done/passed, I have no problem with you posting images here. But if it's stuff that hasn't happened in the anime yet, I'd rather you guys make a thread in the Manga/Book forum to share it.

[Munsu]

If it's stuff the anime has already done/passed, I have no problem with you posting images here. But if it's stuff that hasn't happened in the anime yet, I'd rather you guys make a thread in the Manga/Book forum to share it.

This is essentially what I have, and I was thinking of you more than anyone as the one who'll object:

Passage of Lilia's POV prior to Rudeus' narration. - It mentions a bit of this event and also touches on why she came here (that last part can be cut off).

Rudeus' narration. - All of the above is in Volume 1, and I doubt we'd get that Lilia POV animated.

There's another Extra chapter that occurs in volume 6, which expands in Lilia's past from her POV (maybe) and it touches on this event once again. I don't know if that will ever get animated, but I was only thinking of posting the passage that pertains to what we're talking about here. Just a couple of sentences really.

I honestly think there's another passage from Paul's POV, but I don't recall it... but I think somewhere along the line we get HIS impression on what occurred that night. We'll have to wait and see.

But I think I'll just do it in the flame pit, not really interested in discussing the LN, just this particular event... more so from how interpretations and translations themselves can vary.

[MFauli]

Yes, I studied Japanese language for one year in Tokyo when I lived as an exchange student there. I also continued my study in my country's University and on my personal time. I did translations for some fansubs back when they were a thing, including Gotwoot Subs, actually. I also translated manga and sound episodes for fun for a while. Since I mostly consume Japanese media, I never really got rusty and only expanded my vocabulary and cultural understanding since.

I am sincerely not backing any argument in the thread. I just felt I needed to provide the most accurate translation of that monologue.

WN means Web Novel, which was the original material from the author until he published it in LN format. WNs are usually hosted in a web novel posting site, and the chapters are usually released one at a time, like a serialized story.

It is also very common for language and story to be toned down in LN vs WN. WNs basically have no editors and very little rules about their content. LNs will have to submit to the rules of the publisher and their market regulations.

Ok, that's nice then to have someone even more knowledgeable here

From your experience, does 寝込みを襲う *always* mean rape? Would it never be used in a more playful scenario, like, 2 friends surpring each other, or a child/pet surpring their parents/owner while they're sleeping?

That's how I've used that phrase, and that one dictionary I linked offered that translation, too. That's why I think the anime doesn't necessarily talk about rape, even though there's a good chance it was, but only the LN directly says 無理矢理. Not the anime.

Hope you can clarify that, thx.

[Munsu]

Posted in The Flame Pit, have at it those who want... I think this discussion has being going long enough over here. Hopefully next episode will give us something else to discuss, like Rudeus smelling panties again.

[MFauli]

Hopefully next episode will give us something else to discuss, like Rudeus smelling panties again.

"According to my translation he didn't smell them, he 'inspected' them. That's a big difference there, the former making it sound like he's a pervert, whereas the latter shows that he's probably checking if there's something wrong. Maybe Roxy is sick and he plans to help her."

(yes, I'm making fun of myself here, I'm capable of that &#128039

[shinta|hikari]

From your experience, does 寝込みを襲う *always* mean rape? Would it never be used in a more playful scenario, like, 2 friends surpring each other, or a child/pet surpring their parents/owner while they're sleeping?

That's how I've used that phrase, and that one dictionary I linked offered that translation, too. That's why I think the anime doesn't necessarily talk about rape, even though there's a good chance it was, but only the LN directly says 無理矢理. Not the anime.

Hope you can clarify that, thx.

I did mention in the first post that this is sometimes used for comedic effect in anime and other Japanese media, but when that occurs, it is typically clear that it is used in jest. So yes, the answer to your question is it can be used in a more playful scenario. A different wording can be "an ambush" or "surprise attack".

However, in the specific scene in the episode in question, this isn't the case. It is very clearly non-consensual, at least from Rudeus's phrasing. As for how Lillia views it herself, no one knows for sure, at least from what was show in this show.

It may very well be that she secretly likes Paul since their youth so she welcomed the advance, but when they were caught by the people of the dojo, Paul was branded as a rapist and chased off. Her current employment and subsequent "seduction" seem to support that.

She may also have forgiven Paul for his crime and eventually came to work for him. Her horniness, which led to the pregnancy, may have no affection behind it either.

[DarthEnderX]

This is essentially what I have, and I was thinking of you more than anyone as the one who'll object:

Well most of the people in the thread seem to be reading the LN already.