Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[KrayZ33]

You're interpreting things in the most convenient way for everyone BUT him. Reminder that I never said he was a good person, just that there's nothing showing him as a shit person, either.

Uhm... but there is.
And I'm not interpreting much at all. I'm pointing out the scenes.
There is reason as to why the animator went out of his way to animate him smashing his fist against the wall to shut up his parents.
He could've shown us the same scene with him just ignoring his parents pleading for reason. You do realize that the impact of the scene is completely different, right?

edit: The same could be said about the funeral scene.
He wasn't "disconnected" or apathetic, he was enjoying himself watching porn while his whole family had a rough time and he doesn't care. Yet at same time, he lives in the house of his parents as a 34 year old but never did *anything* in his adult live to make up for it. He's certainly not paying them any money? Or helping them do stuff?

If that isn't shitty behaviour, what is? If his parents are so "bad" why doesn't he go somewhere else? He's an adult.

The "Ifs and buts" part is about you guys assuming stuff that wasn't shown and me saying that we might as well assume stuff in favor and not just stuff against a certain viewpoint.

[Ryllharu]

As Munsu pointed out a while ago at this point, the contrast is the part that matters. The effects of his past on Earth linger into his new present, and make it interesting. You don't really see in his first five years that he never left the half-walls of their house until Roxy and Zenith discuss it. You don't really grasp that he's never had a friend his own age, that he's never even talked to any of the other kids in the village, or even many of the other adults outside his immediate household.

His parents and the maid definitely noticed.

But he was clearly shown as a shitty person before he had his first big shift in the past when saving the teens.

He has no need to save them, he shouldn't care given he was thrown out of his little sanctuary moments before. He's furious. They're also high school students, who he perpetually fears and despises at the same moment from being bullied in the past. But he does call out to them after a few moments of hesitation. He does cross the street and get them out of immediate danger by whatever means.
And yeah, they're not even grateful. Two of them ran off. Or maybe they're terrified and consoling each other that they were having an argument, and an overweight guy saved them at the cost of his own life. Maybe we'll never know.

Storytelling basics. Everything we've seen of his prior to that moment isn't great (not appearances, in actions). Some of it is reprehensible. Maybe some of it even repulsive. But we see his character development his first selfless act in decades. Show a before, so the moment of change and the after parts matter more.

We can accept that he was a shitty person. But he's changing now, and the lingering after effects are poisoning his present, and he's slowly overcoming them across years. A nice shift in pace from "I'm the hero now and my entire previous life can be turned around in an instant!" Seriously this time, though I do love that KonoSuba handles it with them all being shitty people still (except Darkness).

[DarthEnderX]

The more subtle things also show us that he himself knows that he did things wrong in his previous life and that there are regrets.

That's where the argument falls apart to Mfauli though. Because he is that guy and still doesn't realize he's doing things wrong.

He watches this and goes "Man, this guy is just like me, he's got it aaall figured out!" and then he goes online and is like "Wait, everyone is calling him a scumbag. Dumb SJWs!!"

You're interpreting things in the most convenient way for everyone BUT him.

No, we're interpreting things the way they were shown. Might more have been going on? Yes. But they haven't shown that.

Meanwhile, you're assuming a bunch of hypothetical things that could have happened, but weren't shown, and then going "Yeah, that's probably what was really going on" while forming your headcanon of this character based on a bunch of shit you made up.

[MFauli]

.
He wasn't "disconnected" or apathetic, he was enjoying himself watching porn while his whole family had a rough time and he doesn't care.

You keep emphasizing that they're family. I keep telling you that the word 'family' has zero value depending on an individual person with individual experiences. Some children even kill their parents and it's ok depending on context. Stop using 'but family!' as an end-all.

Yet at same time, he lives in the house of his parents as a 34 year old but never did *anything* in his adult live to make up for it. He's certainly not paying them any money? Or helping them do stuff?

That's me. I offered to pay, but my parents didn't want to sign the papers from social welfare; so they got no money, but complained about me not paying anyway. I keep offering to help with various things; they keep refusing my help or when I do, they insult me for how I do it. Why do they not throw me out? Because 'what would the neighbors think?!'. Why am I still living here? Because I suffer from two-fold depression and any alternative would be even worse. "He is an adult" - that's age, nothing more.

DarthEnder tries to ridicule me, but all I'm trying to say is that nothing what we've seen so far makes him a 'shit person'. Yes, there are many 'what if's. But how about not assuming the worst, especially when he DIED because he wanted to save others?


PS: Just for the record: I am not thinking about murdering my parents, and I would go to their funeral, if I'd be able to. When I think about them being dead I start crying, I love them, but there's things that just aren't ok and that, in turn, don't make me a shit person. That's why I strongly empathize with that guy. And I'm 100% sure that a lot of the people hating him (maybe not you guys) do so because of how gross he looked before his reincarnation.

[DarthEnderX]

DarthEnder tries to ridicule me

Mainly because of the way you're constantly trying to defend characters that don't respect women(or other people in general). Always trying to defend voyeurism and other harassing behavior as being "natural", and not something that should be looked down on.

And it sucks you have a sob story about your life, but my life isn't much different, and I don't have a shit attitude towards women, or my parents. That shit is on you, and your sucky life doesn't excuse that behavior.

When I think about them being dead I start crying, I love them, but there's things that just aren't ok and that, in turn, don't make me a shit person.

And if they'd shown this guy missed the funeral because he was too grief stricken to go, I'd have a lot more sympathy for him.

[MFauli]

Mainly because of the way you're constantly trying to defend characters that don't respect women(or other people in general). Always trying to defend voyeurism and other harassing behavior as being "natural", and not something that should be looked down on.

And it sucks you have a sob story about your life, but my life isn't much different, and I don't have a shit attitude towards women, or my parents. That shit is on you, and your sucky life doesn't excuse that behavior.

And if they'd shown this guy missed the funeral because he was too grief stricken to go, I'd have a lot more sympathy for him.

I guess this is your MAL account:

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topic...40#msg61731886

[KrayZ33]

You keep emphasizing that they're family. I keep telling you that the word 'family' has zero value depending on an individual person with individual experiences. Some children even kill their parents and it's ok depending on context. Stop using 'but family!' as an end-all.

And I'm saying you are using your personal issues to create a head-canon for this character instead of looking at what has been shown.

MC has issues. He did things wrong, he did things he regrets himself, he did things because he was bullied, he did things because his mental health forced him to do these things.
That doesn't make the things he did any less "shitty". It just means something happened to him that made him do shitty stuff. To some degree, he is a victim, to some degree, he abuses his state as a victim as an excuse.
"They don't know how I feel 8[ (but I won't talk to them, because if I do, I'd actually have to face reality)" etc. etc.

That's me. I offered to pay, but my parents didn't want to sign the papers from social welfare; so they got no money, but complained about me not paying anyway. I keep offering to help with various things; they keep refusing my help or when I do, they insult me for how I do it. Why do they not throw me out? Because 'what would the neighbors think?!'. Why am I still living here? Because I suffer from two-fold depression and any alternative would be even worse. "He is an adult" - that's age, nothing more.

This is probably what MC thinks too, but it's wrong.

It's sad that you think this way and believe it would be even worse, because in your case, it's a real life issue we are talking about, but in this story/anime, this is great for us because MC does have actual issues that are realistic (as we can see when we take you as an example). He is in fact not perfect - he actually *has* to redeem himself for us to like him.
And it's happening in a really subtle manner so far, which makes it even more fun.

You should stay away from MAL btw. because just by looking at that thread page I can tell that most of these guys are idiots that like to piss and shit on things they don't like for no real reason.
I can immediatly tell that the guy you quoted wants to self insert and is angry that (even though it would've been a perfect fit for him most likely) MC is not portrayed as the typical nice guy. Maybe he even hates himself even more now because that "ugly dude" gets to redo his life and he can't.

edit: oh gosh... the people on that forum. Geez. I'm getting flashbacks to my younger self when I was 14 or so.

[Kraco]

If you look at it from the other way around, which I already hinted at in my earlier post, the MC's generally speaking shitty original life is used to explain why he is how he is now. If he had been a more successful personal originally, yet was still leering at the maid, trying to peek at Roxy's panties (and steal them), etc, viewers would judge his current character more than the past one. Now you can say he's shameless because he was like that before reincarnation, so he can't help it, but surely he will heal and get better. If his past had been decent, he would simply be a cheap lecher now for no particular reason, and thus more detestable.

[MFauli]

Just wanted to apologize for my strong reaction in earlier posts. I stand by my opinion that he's not necessarily a 'shit person' (he might turn out to be), but I shouldn't get so worked up over it. Sorry.

[neflight86]

I always saw Rudy as more pitiable than empathetic- so disconnected (by choice) from reality that some basic human decency has left him. He recognizes this, and it is why he is able to avoid the adage "youth is wasted on the young" in his reincarnation. If his previous life were fulfilling and he had no regrets, there would be no drive to succeed 'this time', which is the main crux of the story.

But yes, he's still quite the little perv. You can take the otaku out of Japan...

[Kraco]

Episode 3


- - - - -



Rudy hasn't yet noticed that since it's an isekai, not Japan, getting wet in a summer rain doesn't automatically mean one catches a cold.

Pretty much a character introduction episode, but it was jolly good from the beginning till the end. It seems to be hard for Paul to have a kid who's smarter than he is, by far, already at the single digit age. Paul is only smarter with women.

[Ryllharu]

What I appreciate about this series is they do a good job at reiterating that everyone has their imperfections. Rudy and Paul's fight seems like some holier-than-thou hyperintelligent kid talking down to his Dad...but that is what precocious children always do. But the encounter makes Paul think more carefully about being a father, and not just his vision of what a father should act like. Rudy responds to it later, when Paul's improved approach helps both discipline Rudy for what he did to Sylphie, and help him apologize to her.

In Rudy's case, he gets better at dealing with people, or at least is reminded how to properly deal with people.

It's getting harder to blame Rudy's pervy behavior when Paul is a complete horndog though.

Should I assume the bully had one of his friends give him a black eye, or do the later lines about the summer imply that his mother is finding excuses to talk to Paul? The later ones seem a bit more like Rudy and Slyphie's doing, but the first one is quite suspicious...

[MFauli]

So let's have the key discussion here that's at the heart of this episode:

If Rudy enters a flirts or even enters a relationship with a girl his physical age - ok or not ok?

First though is ofc: Rudy's mentally a 40something yo guy, so obviously it wouldn't be ok. But then you need to think about the situation: Rudy was reincarnated into this position without his choosing. What can he do ? Tell everyone that he's actually 40something? At best nobody believes him and thinks he's a weirdo. At worst he's killed, right after his parents forsakened him in disgust. If he somehow chose to become a kid, if he could repeatedly do that, then I'd say it wouldn't be ok. But as is? That's his life now, he was given that chance by some otherworldly entity, so it's not his fault. And ultimately, what's gonna happen? He's not a rapist. At worst he's gonna do something overtly perverted and get scolded for it. And once it comes to sex, he's probably a safer choice for any girl than other boys who know nothing about protection and properly caressing a girl instead of just looking out for their own pleasure.

All things considered: As long as he doesn't start sexual stuff at his current age, I find nothing wrong with fully embracing his new existence. And once he and the girls in that world are officially adults, then whatever. Then it''s at best age-shaming. "Oh no, a 40yo guy with a 16yo girl?!!! - except it's legal, so stfu.

@Ryll: I dunno. When Rudy out-argued his father, it felt ... bad. Like, his dad felt that something was off. Even if Rudy was in the right, it looked to me as if his dad noticed how that kind of situation shouldn't play out like that. We later saw them behave like father-son again, yeah, but I'm not sure if that scene has a negative long-term effect that's still hidden for now.

[Ryllharu]

I agreed with you while watching it, but then I remembered that 2-5 year olds try these kind of logic-bomb attacks on their parents IRL all the time. They just usually fail spectacularly because they're toddlers.

It does feel weird. Paul, Zenith, and maid in-universe all know he comes off weird.

But I'm willing to give it a pass because Rudy was in the right, Paul wasn't going to listen to him at first and hear his side. The threat to pretend to be a POS and then leave the family forever felt wrong because that's what teens say. So the situation was normal, the outcome was a little off because 37-year old inner self knows how to logic-bomb proper, and the ending of the encounter was 100% off.

But little kids Rudy's age do try to outmaneuver their parents and challenge them like that.

[MFauli]

Yeah. But ... I don't know. What made it feel off for me was that at some point during the scene, it felt as if Rudy "broke" his dad, in a very bad way. Like, as if Rudy had actually done something bad, but found an argument that "sounds" logical and leaves the other person without counter-argument, despite knowing that Rudy's wrong. Which is weird, because indeed Rudy was fully in the right here. Still ... it came off to me as if he mindbroke his dad. If I had to make another comparison: It felt like when in some h-doujin the son overpowers his dad and bangs his mom with his dad knowing about it, but accepting it. Just feels bad ...

[Ryllharu]

I think that's exactly what keeps it on the good side of the line.

Inner Rudy states near the end that he has tons of experience "weaseling out of unwinnable arguments" by being shitty like that, but tosses on, "and I'm completely in the right this time."

So he's used this technique for horrible things in the past, presumably mostly staying in his room and never leaving or doing anything of 'value.' But this time he's actually defending himself for doing something good, protecting Sylphie. It's another case of we get a glimpse of how he used to be, how it affects him in this world, and how he's improving for the better in the long run (he shut down a parent for generally unselfish reasons).

Paul turns it back on him later with the proper lesson when Paul tells himself he won't get angry and will listen first, and they fix their relationship because Paul doesn't know everything about being a father, and Rudy obviously has gaps in relating and dealing with people.

So it's forgivable.

If you look at it from a 300 meter level, it makes the whole episode rather touching.

[Munsu]

Nothing to do with the newest episode, just read the latest translated LN which just came out... so I'll just say "Wow, LOL" without comments. If the anime reaches that point, I'll reference back to this post.

Anyways, will watch the newest episode in a few.

[DarthEnderX]

"Oh man, this guy is so hot! I wanna fuck him so bad!"

"A G-G-G-GIRL?!"

What a dumbass...

If Rudy enters a flirts or even enters a relationship with a girl his physical age - ok or not ok?

*sign* You know what? I don't have the energy to eat that can of worms...

I agreed with you while watching it, but then I remembered that 2-5 year olds try these kind of logic-bomb attacks on their parents IRL all the time. They just usually fail spectacularly because they're toddlers.

I was with him up until "I have 20+ years experience with unwinnable arguments."

Which just makes me picture him being an internet troll with his list of logical fallacies open in another tab...

Nothing to do with the newest episode, just read the latest translated LN which just came out... so I'll just say "Wow, LOL" without comments. If the anime reaches that point, I'll reference back to this post.

Take it to the manga forum, scrub!

[MFauli]

*sign* You know what? I don't have the energy to eat that can of worms...

Can is open, don't let it spoil now!

I know it's a tough thinking exercise for someone like you, but ols, give it a try.

[Kraco]

Yeah. But ... I don't know. What made it feel off for me was that at some point during the scene, it felt as if Rudy "broke" his dad, in a very bad way. Like, as if Rudy had actually done something bad, but found an argument that "sounds" logical and leaves the other person without counter-argument, despite knowing that Rudy's wrong. Which is weird, because indeed Rudy was fully in the right here. Still ... it came off to me as if he mindbroke his dad.

Paul isn't that weak. He might not be the best dad in the universe, this is also his first time and apparently he ran away from home permanently, but he still loves his family. In the end, the little eerie feeling in their interactions is a very good detail in a memory retaining reincarnation isekai. In plenty of isekai all you get is a "Our son is a genius!" line and that's all. That line is also present here, but scenes like in this episode make it better. It's pretty funny that Paul himself being so horny actually makes him more or less ignore Rudy's tendencies, whereas the maid couldn't help but notice them immediately. Yet because Paul is like that, the maid must have just thought like father, like son, even when the son is a small child.