Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[KrayZ33]

Why wouldn't I sidestep her when Sylphie, in whose defense Norn was supposedly speaking, sidestepped her?

Because it seems you are doing that before it was actually clear that Sylphie was fine with it, the normal train of thought would've been that Sylphie is NOT fine with it (if Sylphie was a real and normal and believable person) wouldn't it? And Norn came to her defense. It turned out to be unnecessary but that's unexpected, even in their world.
I think it's unfair to say it was about Norn though.
That's like saying it's about "me" when I help a stranger that gets bullied because my moral compass tells me it's the right thing to do. Or if you want to remove the third party, it's like saying it's about "me" when I help my brother or someone else back on what I consider the "right track".
That would just mean that selfless acts don't exist.

She felt threatened by Roxy appearing because it doesn't fit her Milis principles (a dear memory of her mom) and because she's not sure what would happen to her own place in the house if another woman appeared there.

Nah, I don't think that's the case at all.
At least not if you were arguing towards something simple such as "I'll disappear among them and become unimportant"

The first part, yes, if your morals are getting attacked this might cause a defensive reaction because that's basically a confronation to your believe system. What I actually think happened is however that Rudeus doesn't match with what she considers a "good person" and that is bringing up doubts and fears (about her brother being a good guy)

Rudeus is Paul and Zenith's child. Norn is not Rudeus and Sylphie's child. Isn't that the point I was making from the beginning?

Yes but what does that mean?
Why is that important? I don't understand that point.
Father getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about your mother though and how she feels
Brother getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about Sylphie(his wife) though and how she feels.

Don't get me wrong with that example, in both cases it's about the person getting the second wife and what you now think of him, not about the person who got hurt.

In both cases you have no say in it either way, but you are not out of line when you step in and give your thoughts about a family decision.
Are you closer to your dad than you are to your sister? In what way?

Nobody will take the place of Norn's parents. That's the reality she will need to deal with

That's wrong though, because Sylphie and Rudeus are for certain taking their place. We are talking about roles, aren't we?
Not the actual person.
Your older brother could take the place of your father if he needs to.






Skipping through this season again, I think this is one of my favorites scenes this season

Overall the whole Labyrinth part was pretty awesome, seeing Elinalise wielding her buckler and sword skills. Paul being a pretty cool and strong fighter and overall the whole "party explores a dungeon" dynamic was really well done. I mentioned that the hydra fight was good, but it's actually the whole thing about the dungeon that was very entertaining.

[DarthEnderX]

Why wouldn't I sidestep her when Sylphie, in whose defense Norn was supposedly speaking, sidestepped her? Rudeus did accept the duty to look after Norn (and Aisha, but now Aisha's mom is back), but that's still not nearly the same as a mother and father looking after their child.

Holy shit that's a shitty viewpoint.

"I'm your primary caregiver and guardian, but you don't matter as much as my REAL child."

[Kraco]

Because it seems you are doing that before it was actually clear that Sylphie was fine with it, the normal train of thought would've been that Sylphie is NOT fine with it (if Sylphie was a real and normal and believable person) wouldn't it? And Norn came to her defense. It turned out to be unnecessary but that's unexpected, even in their world.

Who is Norn to define what Sylphie would find okay or not okay? She had no chance to discuss it beforehand with Sylphie. Norn merely assumed Sylphie would never be okay with it, because Norn herself, having adopted the Milis faith from her mother, wouldn't be okay with it. Norn hasn't really got along with Aisha either, which would have made her own family situation more painful. I wouldn't go as far as to say she now would hope that Aisha had never been born, but since it's a binary situation (a person either is born or not), you might as well say her ideal birth family would have nobody but Paul, Zenith, Rudeus, and herself. Maybe Norn is also afraid of the kid Sylphie gives birth to having to face a situation similar to her own experience with Aisha.

It might not be unexpected at all in their world. In the USA it would be perfectly expected for a household to sport a pistol for self-defence reasons. In much of Europe, it would be extraordinary. In Japan, it would be nigh impossible. Why would it be unexpected for a deeply polygamous culture to have the first wife accept a second wife somewhat graciously, aftering having tested and judged the second wife candidate with her own eyes, with plenty of prior information available as well?

I think it's unfair to say it was about Norn though.
That's like saying it's about "me" when I help a stranger that gets bullied because my moral compass tells me it's the right thing to do. Or if you want to remove the third party, it's like saying it's about "me" when I help my brother or someone else back on what I consider the "right track".
That would just mean that selfless acts don't exist.

I'm not saying Norn wouldn't have done it with the best of intentions, but it doesn't change the fact she didn't know what she was doing and based it all 100% on her own beliefs, personal experience, and opinions. So, yes, it was about her.

Nah, I don't think that's the case at all.
At least not if you were arguing towards something simple such as "I'll disappear among them and become unimportant"

Well, sure, that might have been going a bit too far on my part. But it definitely would have felt threatening to her own comfort within the household, which would play a role in her motivations.

Yes but what does that mean?
Why is that important? I don't understand that point.
Father getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about your mother though and how she feels
Brother getting a second wife, that woman means nothing to you - you care about Sylphie(his wife) though and how she feels.

Of course there's a difference between your biological family (yourself, your parents) and the family your sibling found for themselves. Your sibling's choice in choosing a spouse is none of your business. Of course if your sibling starts dating a drug addict, you would typically do what you can to discourage it, but that's all you can do. Roxy isn't a drug addict, though. She's an extremely important person for the whole family, with long history. I'm sure Norn had heard some of it. Roxy even almost died miserably and alone while trying to save Zenith, purely out of the goodness of her heart.

That's wrong though, because Sylphie and Rudeus are for certain taking their place. We are talking about roles, aren't we?
Not the actual person.
Your older brother could take the place of your father if he needs to.

Seems like we will end up disagreeing here. Rudeus is taking their place in some specific functions, but that's all. Being a dad or a mom is more than just a collection of mundane tasks performed. Rudeus is Norn and Aisha's big brother. That's his role, even if he ends up having to do more than big brothers usually do. Nevertheless, he also has his own family, which is separate from his birth family (where Norn and Aisha belong). "Cruel" as it might be, Rudeus's new family (Sylphie+baby and Roxy) are his first priority. That's how nature works.

[MFauli]

The question is: Where did Norn learn her stuck up attitude?

She was literally raised by Paul, THE "enemy of women" (lol). She must have known that her father wasn't just having one woman. And yet she LOVED her dad. So why be such a cunt towards Rudy for getting a second wife? That's sloppy writing imo.

[shinta|hikari]

Because Norn is an asshat. Aisha's existence negates her "am a baby" excuse.

[KrayZ33]

The question is: Where did Norn learn her stuck up attitude?

She was literally raised by Paul, THE "enemy of women" (lol). She must have known that her father wasn't just having one woman. And yet she LOVED her dad. So why be such a cunt towards Rudy for getting a second wife? That's sloppy writing imo.

I don't know, it feels to me like it's necessary to point out how awful this whole thing already is from "looks" alone.
"Timing" is a thing and having "tact" is important for this.
When someone watches a show these details easily get lost because of pacing, but this is how it happened not just for the sake of fitting this into one episode:

Rudeus went to save their parents. Norn is super happy that someone as great as Rudeus is going and now has high hopes.
Rudeus comes back and tells them that they have a "semi-dead" mother and lost Paul, her father (the most important person simply due to how much time she spend with him compared to any one else in her family)
Norn's hopes were obviously entirely crushed, but she was strong enough - as a child - to realize that nothing could've been done if even Rudeus couldn't help it. She understands that Rudy fought hard.
So after this, instead of waiting a week now, he literally pressed the issue with Roxy about one hour later (that's quite likely at most the time he waited) and said:
"Oh and btw, this is going to be my 2nd wive, I bedded her after I felt down and she really helped me there"
(making it sound bland to point to show how absurd the topic/mood switched)

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason. They are now waiting until the child is born anyway, so why not declare it after something "good" happened to dampen the blow.
In my opinion this was just Rudeus being a little stupid/jumping the gun.

I don't know who exactly influenced Norn towards the Millis faith, but the city they were having their headquarters and when Rudy showed up for the first time is basically the Vatican of that faith. I can't remember why they were there in the first place (out of all places) but thats where they were for the longest time in her life.

Either way she doesn't seem that devouted to me, considering how fast she dropped this issue (which is probably one of the "main features" of that belief), so it's not like her belief is the reason why she hates the idea.

Norn loved her dad because he literally did everything for her and even though he had a really horrible time, was depressed and drunk etc, he still helped everyone to find their relatives whenever possible and worked day in and day out to the point of depression. Probably never lashed out at Norn either.


edit: and perhaps the most important thing.
She was raised by Paul. How do you expect a child he raised to behave

Because Norn is an asshat. Aisha's existence negates her "am a baby" excuse.

edit2: just realized, even when everything was still alright, Aisha woke up early and helped in the house as a daughter of Lilia who trained her to become Rudeus' servant
While Norn basically woke up all sleepy and pampered getting to "enjoy" being the daughter of a rich/powerful family with servants.

[Buffalobiian]

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason. They are now waiting until the child is born anyway, so why not declare it after something "good" happened to dampen the blow.
In my opinion this was just Rudeus being a little stupid/jumping the gun.

This I disagree with.

You clear this shit up as soon as you can, and you get on your knees while you do so. Rudy did everything 100% right by sorting out Paul's news first, then bring this up once everyone's cleared out.

Paul fucked it up while Rudy didn't, though the circumstances were different in that it sounded like Paul would have left it as a one night stand had Lilia not become pregnant.

[KrayZ33]

This I disagree with.

You clear this shit up as soon as you can, and you get on your knees while you do so. Rudy did everything 100% right by sorting out Paul's news first, then bring this up once everyone's cleared out.

Paul fucked it up while Rudy didn't, though the circumstances were different in that it sounded like Paul would have left it as a one night stand had Lilia not become pregnant.

In front of the kids?
Hm, I still feel like this could've been something he could discuss with Sylphie alone and then with Aisha and Norn later after they calmed down, although Aisha would most likely have found out herself anyway.
Let them mourn their father before you bombard them with even more "problems".


Btw, I just realized that Aisha and Norn had visited Zenith's mother, who also seems to have somewhat of a grudge against Lilia being Pauls second wife. I kinda forgot that scene completely.
Considering its still rather fresh in her mind, I'd wager it happened after the teleport stuff?





Maaaaan, I can't wait for season 3, there is still so much stuff going on in that series and world that I want to know more of.
The simple fact that this time around Rudeus didn't listen to Human God for the first time makes me wonder what will happen the next time they meet.
But there are like a thousand different topics.

Eris.
Greyrat Houses.
What the teleportation incident actually did try to accomplish and why Rudeus appeared in this world differently than Nanahoshi.
And there is also world-lore that I'd love to hear more about. like "the six sided world" they live in.
I actually remember seeing - what are they even called... some kind of apparatus that shows the "solar system" with the "cube/six sided world" at its center - during the first half of season 2.

The Laplace war (and Laplace itself, who seems to be on the move again according to dragon boy)

This show has been so character focused so far, it's really cool that all the topics still remain mysterious and open and it still works as a story plot point because "other stuff is just more imporatnt right now"

Human-God says he didn't reincarnate Rudeus and mentioned that this is kinda the dragon-gods forte.
So who got Rudeus/MC into this and why isn't he showing up.

Stuff like that.

[Kraco]

So after this, instead of waiting a week now, he literally pressed the issue with Roxy about one hour later (that's quite likely at most the time he waited) and said:
"Oh and btw, this is going to be my 2nd wive, I bedded her after I felt down and she really helped me there"
(making it sound bland to point to show how absurd the topic/mood switched)

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason. They are now waiting until the child is born anyway, so why not declare it after something "good" happened to dampen the blow.
In my opinion this was just Rudeus being a little stupid/jumping the gun.

In front of the kids?
Hm, I still feel like this could've been something he could discuss with Sylphie alone and then with Aisha and Norn later after they calmed down, although Aisha would most likely have found out herself anyway.
Let them mourn their father before you bombard them with even more "problems".

Norn and Aisha were just the peanut gallery there. Rudeus was talking to Sylphie, asking for her permission. That obviously could not wait. Rudeus brought Roxy with her, with certain implications, which would be far worse if he said nothing for months (he would have been hiding the immoral act for months). Worse for both Sylphie and Roxy. Norn and Aisha didn't really count for much in this concrete issue. It's anyone's guess why they were there. Perhaps because Rudeus didn't think it through? He's no wise old man. It could be he simply thought it would allow him to get them informed as well, without needing to do the declaration for a second time. Somehow Norn then stole the center stage. I doubt Rudeus wanted to make Roxy stand through it, when Norn attacked her like a public prosecutor.

Either way she doesn't seem that devouted to me, considering how fast she dropped this issue (which is probably one of the "main features" of that belief), so it's not like her belief is the reason why she hates the idea.

She dropped it because Sylphie accepted it. What else could she have done at that point? Her religious beliefs weren't the only reason. Other plausible reasons have been mentioned, such as the suffering Paul's infidelity caused her back in the Millis capital. But do the other reasons matter either when Sylphie accepted it?

Maaaaan, I can't wait for season 3, there is still so much stuff going on in that series and world that I want to know more of.
The simple fact that this time around Rudeus didn't listen to Human god for the first time makes me wonder what will happen the next time they meet.

Hitogami carries the title of a god, so I doubt he holds a personal grudge. He just ought to try harder to convince Rudeus the next time. In the end, we don't even know what Hitogami wants. All this stuff could be of zero consequence for him. His real goal might be decades in the future, and it doesn't matter how Rudeus gets there, just that he is there in a shape suitable for Hitogami.

[KrayZ33]

Norn and Aisha were just the peanut gallery there. Rudeus was talking to Sylphie, asking for her permission. That obviously could not wait. Rudeus brought Roxy with her, with certain implications, which would be far worse if he said nothing for months (he would have been hiding the immoral act for months). Worse for both Sylphie and Roxy. Norn and Aisha didn't really count for much in this concrete issue. It's anyone's guess why they were there. Perhaps because Rudeus didn't think it through? He's no wise old man. It could be he simply thought it would allow him to get them informed as well, without needing to do the declaration for a second time. Somehow Norn then stole the center stage. I doubt Rudeus wanted to make Roxy stand through it, when Norn attacked her like a public prosecutor.

I don't think it's by chance that Lilia left with Zenith but the 2 kids remained instead of helping both their mothers with whatever they are doing right after they "finally got them back".

She dropped it because Sylphie accepted it. What else could she have done at that point? Her religious beliefs weren't

Nothing, but she could still argue that its an eternal sin and constantly complain about it, which is what she would've done if she is a devout follower that priotises piety over other things.
Which is what I'm saying, she isn't.

Hitogami carries the title of a god, so I doubt he holds a personal grudge. He just ought to try harder to convince Rudeus the next time. In the end, we don't even know what Hitogami wants. All this stuff could be of zero consequence for him. His real goal might be decades in the future, and it doesn't matter how Rudeus gets there, just that he is there in a shape suitable for Hitogami.

Yeah, but he is also the reason why Rudeus got the Demon Eye. "Just because" (perhaps he is priming him to take over his body? Considering all the funny features he has, and how powerless he seems to be right now
And he only shows up when *he* wants "something" it seems?

losely quoted:

Human God: Yo, it's been a year!
Rudeus: "And here I hoped I had seen the last of you"
Human God: Well, well my advice last time got you into really hot water. I figured showing up made things a bit awkward (yeaaaaaah... riiiiight... a god getting embarassed about that?)
He then proceeds to explain to him how he could've used the situation instead - which was his plan
But in the end he was happy that Rudeus got even further ahead, probably way beyond his own imagination.
"Only the result matters"

That talk happened when they were trying to find money for Ruijerd to get on that ship.
And that time, the result probably overlapped with his expectation, will this time be the same?

It seems to me he only shows up as soon as something is about to happen that he doesn't want to happen.

Remember when he stopped Rudeus and suggested not searching for his mother?
Isn't it weird that he only shows up again when Rudeus was about to reconsider and go anyway (after he received that letter)?

[Buffalobiian]

In front of the kids?

That seemed to be a deliberate action. Lilia and Zenith left the room.

I got the feeling that Rudy just wanted the family members to hear everything in one go. Lilia already knew and with her status as 2nd wife there's no way she'd go against the decision.

Was it wise or appropriate to do so all together instead of with just the wives? I'm not sure. For one, with just the wives it'd seem a bit like a 2v1 against Sylphie. Norn talking out there does make you happy that someone's on your side - whether you agree with their "harsh" stance or not.

From a narrative aspect, it was more interesting for sure.

[Kraco]

Nothing, but she could still argue that its an eternal sin and constantly complain about it, which is what she would've done if she is a devout follower that priotises piety over other things.
Which is what I'm saying, she isn't.

I don't believe she dropped it for good, just like that. She just stopped arguing against it during that meeting, after seeing Sylphie accept it and Roxy in tears. For example she really tried to take it out on Rudeus during the sword practice, so she definitely isn't finished with punishing him or complaining, if given a chance. That being said, I have no doubt Roxy will win her over soon enough. She's an experience magic tutor, for example, and Norn could use all help she could get in that. Not to mention Roxy wouldn't try to teach her "genius arts" like the Silent Fitts or Rudeus. The traditional way of doing magic probably suits Norn better.

For one, with just the wives it'd seem a bit like a 2v1 against Sylphie. Norn talking out there does make you happy that someone's on your side - whether you agree with their "harsh" stance or not.

It was all up to Sylphie to say No or Yes. Having the kids there would have hardly relieved Sylphie from any guilt she might have felt if she had said No. That's what it was all about, ultimately, considering it was Roxy, not just any random woman. She can live with Roxy there to share Rudeus with, but could she have lived with the aftereffects if Roxy had been sent away? It wasn't an emotionally fair decision-making process in that sense. Norn and Aisha didn't really change anything.

[DarthEnderX]

There was almost no reason to declare that immeadiatly, Roxy could've stayed in the house for basically any reason.

"This is my new "maid"." *wink*

[MFauli]

Keeping Roxy in the house WITHOUT telling Slyphie what's the deal would have been THE worst way to go about it, LOL.

Once Rudy tells her, she'd have to assume that either he already wanted to marry Roxy, but kept it secret from her yet let her in their house as his secret wife OR that Rudy and Rox fell in love with each other WHILE Roxy was staying there. Not sure which one's worse.

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the "Don't tell her till after the baby" plan would require Roxy to stay in the house. There's no reason she couldn't just get a place in the city.

[Buffalobiian]

Keeping it all a secret and also keeping Roxy out of the house makes it seem like some sort of shameful secret, which it shouldn't be if you're going to marry her because you love her. It also gives off a vibe that 1st wife gets preferential treatment/resources etc. If you're to embrace polygamy, this feels wrong.

[Kraco]

Trying to postpone it practically at all would be insulting toward both Sylphie and Roxy. Perhaps if they had arranged some kind of formal funeral service for Paul immediately, both the women would have considered it appropriate to wait that much, but beyond that, it would be ridiculous and not in anyone's interests. Which is exactly why Rudeus handled it as soon as he had talked about the events concerning Zenith and Paul.

[KrayZ33]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the "Don't tell her till after the baby" plan would require Roxy to stay in the house. There's no reason she couldn't just get a place in the city.

There is no "don't tell "HER" till after the X plan."
That wasn't suggested by me either.

I'm talking about Norn and Aisha not having to hear it right after they got the message of (at least one of) their parents dying.


If you tell me that you'd suggest announcing your wedding 60 minutes after your father died you people are quite nuts, ngl .



So you send Aisha and Norn with Lilia to take care of their mother, you then have a serious talk with Sylphie that is a lot less emotional than with 2 kids around that still mourn their father.
Sylphie is an adult, can act "more rational", and doesn't mourn Paul like the others do (at least not in intensity)

So after they had the talk, you can declare to the kids that Roxy's gonna stay in the house for *at least* a while or perhaps permanently, make clear that she is a god friend, his tutor and someone you respect and hold dear, just like Sylphie, and that she is part ofthe reason why "I" was able to find "our" mother.
And develop things from there.

He would even be able to eventually properly explain to the *kids* that he "cheated" on Sylphie after the mellowed out a bit and overcame their mourning period.
Since you are focusing on that, you will also know what to say to them to make the "blow" (for Norn) not as hard, because you don't have to focus on Sylphie anymore.
Even better, if she is really on ship with this, she can actually support and help with the convincing.

[MFauli]

Keeping it all a secret and also keeping Roxy out of the house makes it seem like some sort of shameful secret, which it shouldn't be if you're going to marry her because you love her. It also gives off a vibe that 1st wife gets preferential treatment/resources etc. If you're to embrace polygamy, this feels wrong.

It IS a shameful secret in that situation LOL.