So I'm a Spider, So What? - Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka?

[Kraco]

Like, if someone held a gun to my head and was like "Nuke this city or I'm gonna kill you." I'd like to think I let myself die. But apparently y'all be like "Whelp! I gotta survive! So long city!"

More like if you had the chance to kill the person telling you to do it, would you kill them or not.

Kumoko hasn't encountered a single friendly creature for a long time. Even her siblings were cannibals and her mother tried to kill her. The only not hostile things were the corruption larvae. No human has been friendly, which isn't surprising since it's basic logic humans enter the dungeon to hunt monsters. Such circumstances will start to shape your mind. She's not anymore the same person she used to be, ignoring the body/species difference. The other reincarnators we have seen so far are humans or elves with jolly circumstances, all the way up to a royal prince. The dragon one is a prince's pet, no less, living a similarly leisurely life. They have the luxury to uphold high morals, but even so one got rotten.

Ainz is a pure villain at the point of season 3.

Ainz and his cohorts are evil, Kumoko is merely neutral by now, like a wild beast. A lion might kill and eat humans, but it's not evil. If Kumoko gets out of the dungeon and starts massacring civilians in towns, then we can call her evil. If she eats the human bodies, she will have abandoned a big portion of her former humanity, but that's all.

[neflight86]

Finally got around to the latest ep.

I fully expected that flashback (when it started) to actually be that first time her house got burn down from the human's POV. I didn't realize until she started fighting back that this was her post series-adventures-thus-far form. Interesting that her strength/danger was enough to drive other monsters out of the dungeon, but she still couldn't find a way out by herself. I liked the little bit of her comical emoting with the npc face others see her with. At first, I figured she was paralyzing or putting to sleep the adventurer mooks until they started saying she was killing them, and once the teleportation concluded with missing limbs, I fully embraced she was fighting to kill.

At that point, I became a bit disillusioned with her as I too figured she has sort of crossed a line in killing humans. Of course many things factor into this: she was simply too strong and may have killed them with attacks that would merely pacify monsters of the level she was used to. She was rattled and not in full control. Perhaps they looked inhuman to her, as she hasn't seen humans since the last time they burned her house down? Any of those could help explain the jump from happy-go-lucky grinding in our generic cave to wiping an adventurer party with children awaiting their return, but the tone certainly shifted in my perception of her.

Though perhaps she had no obligation to do so, fighting was never even required. Her stats could have easily avoided the battle altogether, as she outran them even the last time she was attacked. It is certainly debatable if she should automatically seek arbitration with an openly hostile force when she has all of the advantages in combat but few in negotiation (as mentioned, she cannot speak), but I still would have personally preferred that route. Giving her innate resolve and peace with ending human life trades the some of the viewer's empathy for a bit of interest. Come to think of it, was her former self mentally stable? She was bullied and a bit of an outcast- was her personality already twisted? I look forward to what ramifications play out. Is it confirmed she is the one who killed the big brother, or is responsible for his death?

I suppose I was holding out hope for her to somehow bridge the game of demons/monsters and humans based on her previous flash forward statements concerning an upcoming war, but that is seeming unlikely now.

I didn't pick up on any maliciousness on the other princes' parts, but now that it has been mentioned, why else introduce them now?

Also of note- the magician seems to have at least a cursory chance of 'understanding' her as he was intrigued by her skills and perhaps could piece together that she is capable of higher thought with the wisdom skill (though that is not needed, as the audience understands). He might be the closest human to being on equal footing enough with her to parlay at some point.

[DarthEnderX]

Interesting that her strength/danger was enough to drive other monsters out of the dungeon, but she still couldn't find a way out by herself.

I don't think she CAN'T, she just hasn't yet. She's not in a rush and she JUST got to the upper levels.

I liked the little bit of her comical emoting with the npc face others see her with.

Me too. Even as a monster, you could tell she was throwing a tantrum.

Perhaps they looked inhuman to her, as she hasn't seen humans since the last time they burned her house down?

She scanned them. She KNOWS they were human.

[MFauli]

For me, the biggest thing I'm curious about rn is: Will she meet her past class mates, and if so, how does she react?

Because I can't help but feel she's gone full-Overlord now. Especially in the present timeline where she has reached humanoid form and acts cold and cruel. And if that's how she is now, well, it just makes everything less interesting. For me the big draw of this story has always been how she'll make her way back to her "friends" again and what happens from there. Now she's returning as a villainous monster. Eh :/

[Kraco]

Any of those could help explain the jump from happy-go-lucky grinding in our generic cave to wiping an adventurer party with children awaiting their return, but the tone certainly shifted in my perception of her.

Though perhaps she had no obligation to do so, fighting was never even required.

They weren't really adventurers. They were soldiers, weren't they? They entered the dungeon with the single purpose of slaying the spider monster responsible for disturbing the local ecosystem. So, was the fighting necessary? The other party was there to kill her. Period. Whether they had kids waiting back home or not is irrelevant. They knew what they were doing, or at least believed they did, as well as the risks of their chosen profession.

Kumoko has her own life to live. She has no obligation to bow down to those who come to exterminate her. She could pretend to be on the humans' side for the sake of her own past, but no amount of pretending would make the humans be on her side. The sooner she accepts she's now a monster, the better for her. It doesn't mean she couldn't encounter non-hostile humans and then treat them fairly, but she certainly shouldn't expect it.

[DarthEnderX]

Everyone remember, when the apocalypse comes, kill Kraco first. Otherwise he IS going to eat you and wear your skin as pants.

[Kraco]

Everyone remember, when the apocalypse comes, kill Kraco first. Otherwise he IS going to eat you and wear your skin as pants.

So, your underlying message is, if you perceive someone as a possible threat, kill them. That's possibly an even stronger approach than what I've been saying in this thread.

[DarthEnderX]

Don't you try and backpedal just cause I'm ready for you now!

[MFauli]

Everyone remember, when the apocalypse comes, kill Kraco first. Otherwise he IS going to eat you and wear your skin as pants.

ROFL, that's exactly what I though, too ;D

"An anime protagonist behaving maliciously? But it's okay, BECAUSE ... reasons."

Since you called me out elsewhere, Kraco, what is your stance on Ainz Ool Gown? Is his behaviour okay, too? ;>

[Kraco]

Since you called me out elsewhere, Kraco, what is your stance on Ainz Ool Gown? Is his behaviour okay, too? ;>

No, it's not. It bothers me all the time, but the series is good enough to read, nonetheless. Besides, it can be good to read stuff that does bother you, occasionally. Nevertheless, it's also why I'm annoyed by you comparing the MCs of these other series to him. Nazarick goes out of its way to slaughter totally unrelated people by the thousands wherever it wants. It's un utterly evil place. Furthermore, it's not chaotic evil but lawful evil, which is even worse.

Kumoko would need to leave the dungeon and attack some random village or town, to kill all the inhabitants indiscriminately, just to harvest exp, to reach Ainz Ool Gown's level. So far Kumoko has only hunted monsters that also hunted her (ignoring the corruption larvae), plus fought humans who attacked first. She has also fled from humans, just like she has fled from the dragons.

If she left the dungeon and attacked a human town, unprovoked, but only fought soldiers fighting back, not touching any civilians or other unarmed people, possibly even sparing wounded soldiers incapable of continuing to fight, then we could have a more intriguing conversation about her morals and her degree of becoming a genuine monster.

[MFauli]

No, it's not. It bothers me all the time, but the series is good enough to read, nonetheless. Besides, it can be good to read stuff that does bother you, occasionally. Nevertheless, it's also why I'm annoyed by you comparing the MCs of these other series to him. Nazarick goes out of its way to slaughter totally unrelated people by the thousands wherever it wants. It's un utterly evil place. Furthermore, it's not chaotic evil but lawful evil, which is even worse.

Kumoko would need to leave the dungeon and attack some random village or town, to kill all the inhabitants indiscriminately, just to harvest exp, to reach Ainz Ool Gown's level. So far Kumoko has only hunted monsters that also hunted her (ignoring the corruption larvae), plus fought humans who attacked first. She has also fled from humans, just like she has fled from the dragons.

If she left the dungeon and attacked a human town, unprovoked, but only fought soldiers fighting back, not touching any civilians or other unarmed people, possibly even sparing wounded soldiers incapable of continuing to fight, then we could have a more intriguing conversation about her morals and her degree of becoming a genuine monster.

You're talking about scale here, though.

For me, Kumoko murdering humans without much regret is full-Overlord level. It's the quality, not the quantity. She killed those people like they're just other monsters that needed to defeated.I know you and others claim that she was justified, that the soldiers attacked first and all. But even without countering that (like: she wasnt attacked first, her nest got destroyed, thats all; even if attacked first, she should have felt reluctant to kill people; even when attacking them, she should have tried to capture them with her net threads, no need for lethal force; she's being depicted as smart otherwise, but now fails to realize they don't understand her? She could have made a bigger effort to communicate; etc.), it's about how little the death of people fazed her.

As I saw that scene, it's the first step to what will later lead to her demon lord spider queen-scene where she's fully cruel and managing a full-blown attack against human strongholds. I assume you would at least acknowledge that the latter is full-Overlord level?

[DarthEnderX]

Since you called me out elsewhere, Kraco, what is your stance on Ainz Ool Gown? Is his behaviour okay, too?

It's definitely not. But it's also not entirely his fault, since the world FORCES him to roleplay a malevolent lich, even when he wouldn't normally(which is, frankly, a REALLY bullshit plot contrivance. It feels like a cheat for "marketing says we have to have an isekai protagonist, but I don't want him to ACT like an isekai protagonist").

As I saw that scene, it's the first step to what will later lead to her demon lord spider queen-scene where she's fully cruel and managing a full-blown attack against human strongholds. I assume you would at least acknowledge that the latter is full-Overlord level?

It's being presented that way. But I want to learn her reason for doing it before I judge her villainy.

If it's like Slime were a bunch of human soldiers came and killed a bunch of her friends, then I can understand.

[Kraco]

As I saw that scene, it's the first step to what will later lead to her demon lord spider queen-scene where she's fully cruel and managing a full-blown attack against human strongholds. I assume you would at least acknowledge that the latter is full-Overlord level?

Assuming it goes down exactly that route, then she would be approaching the same level. But like DE said, there could be circumstances we can't even imagine yet. Furthermore, we don't know if the demon lord queen is Kumoko! It could be a giant red herring. Personally, I'd love it if it was. I'm reading a truckload of isekai manga, and, honestly, most of them have so linear plots without any twists that the best firearm manufacturers can only wish they could make as straight barrels as that.

[Ryllharu]

full-Overlord level?

Each time you say this (which is everywhere), it looks less and less credible in any argument you use it in.

FFS, read more to give yourself some nuance in your metaphors.

[MFauli]

Each time you say this (which is everywhere), it looks less and less credible in any argument you use it in.

FFS, read more to give yourself some nuance in your metaphors.

Your definition of full-Overlord is wrong, that's all. Full-Overlord = having zero regard for human life

[Ryllharu]

So you're admitting it being applied wrong in most cases, while attempting with a comeback to a previous interaction between us.

[MFauli]

episode 11:

God, I love everytime the Matrix-music kicks in, hilarious

Also my highlight of the episode: Kumoko's evil laughter after shooting the wasps. She sounded like she's enjoying herself so much, cute <3

On the other hand, however: When she blushed while Araba was devouring the snake, I really felt like she has lost her humanity. I will add, before someone accusses me of something again, that I'm fine with Kumoko turning into an evil overlord. But it needs to be acknowledged. Whether she is full-on evil by now I can't tell, but when you admire a gruesome killing, you're certainly further gone from being human.

Assuming that she is the humanoid spider demonlord, I wonder how attacking human kingdoms fits into her saving the world-plan.

Also only-in-anime: the dragon girl just like that gives up her freedom for her friend to be able to summon her. ooooookay. This is a typical "good for when we are friends, but bad for when we're no longer friends"-idea, and relationships ARE changing over one's lifetime. I mean, I don't expect this anime to portray it that realistically, so it probably won't become a big problem, but I had to facepalm hard when she shackled herself on a whim like that.

[DarthEnderX]

Nah, this episode gave us the explanation we needed for Kumoko's arc to Demon Lord right at the beginning. There's something with this world where if something drastic doesn't change, the entire world is going to die. It's obvious that whatever her purpose for being a Demon Lord and invading the humans is going to be tied to that.

Also only-in-anime: the dragon girl just like that gives up her freedom for her friend to be able to summon her. ooooookay. This is a typical "good for when we are friends, but bad for when we're no longer friends"-idea, and relationships ARE changing over one's lifetime. I mean, I don't expect this anime to portray it that realistically, so it probably won't become a big problem, but I had to facepalm hard when she shackled herself on a whim like that.

I can already foresee a situation where, kid finds out Kumoko is to blame for her brothers death, is trying to kill her, even though dragon girl knows who she is, and kid forces her to try and kill Kumoko.

At least this episode made it clear that she can talk. At least to her classmates. It's possible the communication is psychic or something, but if that's the case, FUCK the anime for moving her mouth when she does it.

I assume she either can't talk to her non-classmates, or she's keeping it a secret. Cause she didn't speak at all to the brother.

[Buffalobiian]

At least this episode made it clear that she can talk. At least to her classmates. It's possible the communication is psychic or something, but if that's the case, FUCK the anime for moving her mouth when she does it.

How was that clear?

[MFauli]

If that dragon cannot talk, then the mouth animations are total bs. lol