Little something + Discussion about animation?

[KrayZ33]

So, I came across this little piece here






Thought someone liked that little something

And while I'm opening a thread, I might as well leave some thoughts in here, none of them are new but I figured they'd fit in as alternative context:

I wondered, how come this kind of "minimalistic style" is so rarely chosen as an artistic alternative to low effort generic stills that are used in anime.

I mean, it doesn't have to be *this* style specifically, but sometimes, when I see concept art and storyboard drawings... I start thinking about how they'd probably look better if properly animated than the actual end product.
Most companies pick the easy way out when animating scenes, hardly anything is moving in that picture, ugly CGI, borign camera angles... etc. etc.

Why not pick some new style or something artistic instead. Why won't we see more like Panty&Stocking, that switched in and out between 2 different styles, that was pretty cool.

Just pick that part right at the end of the clip, where the character is killing soldiers while prone.
Maybe you can find a scene that is similar in an anime, but I at least can not think of any right now..
When I think about how such a scene, or scenes with snipers in general, would've been animated in Anime, even if the situation is hectic, the camera angles are more often than not focused on something that takes all the momentum out of such a scene.

Where are cowboy bebop camera angles and fight animations gone to these days. That shit was awesome
How come all that has become something only reserved for movies/OVAs
I find it a bit weird that shows from 10-20 years ago have better animations than "high quality" ones these days.
Soul eater comes to mind too. That fight in episode 1? Probably going to remember that for another 20 years, or maybe for a lifetime.

Is colouring manga pages and animating a mouth that expensive? Because honestly, that's what more than half animes (at least most of them) bother to show and do these days. How low are budgets these days for such shows?
It's kinda frustrating. Action shows aside - what about the slice of life/comedy stuff or even "dramas".

If I compare Hyouka and what's going on on the screen during a normal conversation and compare that what like most others companies do for the same kind of conversation I can't help but think "what the fuck" - they just showed one picture for 30 seconds, *nothing* moved other than the gap of his mouth.


Sure thing, not every anime needs good animation, Konosuba for example certainly doesn't (yet it actually had some good and interesting ones). Most comedy shows really don't, they are supposed to be silly and about the jokes.
But shows that are supposed to show action, should actually feel like action shows and have something interesting to look at.
Even shows like Overlord, are so awful in terms of animation, it pretty much ruins the whole thing. Especially if you compare the style you see in the LN pictures and compare it to what you see in the anime. It doesn't capture anything of that in the slightest and if that's the case, an anime about it is kinda missing the point.

[MFauli]

I agree that most animation is shit these days, although I'm not a fan of artsy/minimalistic styles.

There's always exceptions, though. If you want animation similar to your video, SAO Bunny Loli springs to mind.

I'd say the worst thing is when civilians aren't moving in wide shots or they're animated using ugly cgi. Always pulls me out when I'm watching some modern day Tokyo anime with a detailed artstyle buuut nothing's,moving -_- nice pictures, i guess ...

Older anime absolutely more consistently had great animation. Yes. I assume that's related to things being hand-drawn back then, giving everything a natural unsteadyness.

I guess that's part of why I think this current season sucks: nothing is high quality animated (yeah,maybe kimetsu, still gottawatch it).

[neflight86]

It looks like you are craving sakuga animation and actual choreography; two things that aren't native to modern, seasonal animation production schedules.

I get sakuga; animation takes time, and the top shelf animators are in high demand with only so much time, but I never understood anime's lack of choreography, even within its "on 24" animation segments. Its like the only actual "creative staff" working on many anime based on manga is the manga's own author. the studio itself is preoccupied translating static manga panels instead of adapting them for animation. Animation offers the opportunity to impose movment and camera work simply not feasable in other mediums, but the anime industry seems content to allow character designs alone do most of the aesthetic building, instead of motion or direction, or even OST.

At the end of the day, theres just not enough talent to go around, and some shows are blessed with an amazing production while others flounder under the circumstance of the industry. All we can do is enjoy what we can, and hope things will get better. Some facets, like Netflix funding shows for batch release, are promising, but so far their original anime, aside from Devilman Crybaby, have been...divisive, if I'm generous.

[Ryllharu]

It's time constraints. A typical 20 minutes (minus the OP and ED) of a standard length episode is some 14,400 frames at the typical anime 12 fps.

That two minute video was done from October to April, and it is absolutely loaded with shortcuts. Anime studios have far less time for ten times the length.

Take a look at the OP/EDs of tons of recent anime. That's where you get all the ambition. It's 1:30 (that can get reused), has to serve as an advertisement to the series, and they get to spend more time working on it because it is either done in advance, or slapped on when they finally finish it after some lazy stand in sequence.

[KrayZ33]

That's a weak argument imho. Even if it's the truth - but that doesn't really explain why they are in that situation in the first place.

Neither are shows filled with 20 minutes of high movement/action, nor does it have to feature 20 minutes of top notch quality animation. On top of that, how come even the background is affected most of the time, even though you could certainly use a background for more than just a small amount of frames.

The typical show (as in, the majority of a season) however doesn't feature anything but "low effort/low budget" animation. (if you compare it to stuff like Violet Evergarden for example). Skipping frames isn't even remotely as bad as simply not animating movement by using recoloured manga pages.

I'd say it's also a budget question, but I wonder, why is the standard for anime so low... considering how expensive that shit is (for the consumer) and how much money is involved in the market. If anime is used as advertisement for other products related to the franchise, it makes even less sense.

I'm reading that the anime market has gained a lot in recent years, studios are booked until 2020+ etc.
I can't help but blame the consumer if they are fine with this shit.
Would they demand better quality, they'd get it. But on the other hand, top quality shows actually make a lot of money too.
So maybe studios are basically just putting up/filling holes with shitty low effort stuff because consumer will eat it anyway and the margin/revenue is a lot higher on non "AAA-Animes"?.

However, the low effort stuff doesn't seem to sell in the west either

[Ryllharu]

However, the low effort stuff doesn't seem to sell in the west either

Peppa Pig. South Park. Dragonball Z. Attack on Titan.

Seems like the "low effort" stuff sells just fine.

[KrayZ33]

Peppa Pig. South Park. Dragonball Z. Attack on Titan.

Seems like the "low effort" stuff sells just fine.

Not at all - just some/a select few of them - compared to the vast amount of shows airing.

Attack on Titan is far way from the regular low effort stuff too. Most of the 3D-Gear scenes are fluid, fast, have different camera angles, show momentum, weight, thus are interesting to look at.

[neflight86]

Attack on Titan.

Seems like the "low effort" stuff sells just fine.

Hurts, man. I think it has more than adequate production.

[Ryllharu]

Uh...fancy bits aside, it often exhibits slide show behavior.

"[not as good] these days" is also my favorite phrasing in these kinds of discussion. People perpetually forget the massive amount of garbage that came out the same time as what they view as a golden age and has long since been forgotten.

Anime has always been plagued by cost/schedule impacting quality. Even in the "masterpiece" segment.

Amazing five minute set piece? Offset by a recap episode in a very weird position (i.e. anything other than the exact middle of a two-cour-plus series). Well animated sequences through-out? Offset by a lot of minimal motion dialogue scenes.

[neflight86]

Visually, I have experienced that detail alone can captivate me during a scene. Its like when we admire a particularly beautiful piece of scenery or exquisite character close up where motion is absent, and I don't miss it. Shortcuts are always there, but there are ways to minimize the impact that we're so used to seeing now (panning shots, shaky-cam, cg effects like lens flare) our minds just kind of fill in the blanks. The closest we're going to get to full time Sakuga are the movies because they have the budgets and time to focus on animation holistically, instead of literally committing production to air before most of the future episodes are finished.

Ironically, I wonder if our appreciation of fluid animation would much wane if it were the norm. When I power through CG anime, the fluidity is getting there, but the perspective just isn't the same, artistically, and I never seem to enjoy 3d character designs quite like the cell based ones. Case in point, the Airplane/Dogfight show from last season: I actually did not recognize main cast characters when they made their 2d debut for minutes, in spite of thinking to myself how much I liked these character designs and wondered why the show waited so long to introduce these (new?) characters. Characters would morph, for seemingly no reason, scene to scene between planes of reality... I'll take the jank of 2d animation if it means... 2d animation.

Rant aside, the Youtuber Mother's Basement just dropped a light examination of animation quality and production incentives as viewed through the lens of One Punch Man season 2 "Does Anime Need Good Animation?" suggesting the monetary investment wasn't worth it to the IP holders. For an opposite take, (and opposite end of humanity), another "anituber" Digibro put out a video a few years back titled "Stop Blaming Budget For Animation Quality! [Rant]" which boils down to not budget, but time+talent equals quality. Cases could be made both ways.

[KrayZ33]

How much staff and budget is typically involved in your average show?

I find it hard to believe that the shortfilm Voices of a Distant Star, which came out in 2002 using technology that was basically 10 years old at the time, was produced by one dude in 7 months - without any money.

But a studio of professionals with lots of experience, already created assets which can probably be reused, can't scrap together decent backgrounds and character animations inside these backgrounds (so they won't look out of place) in the same time for 12 episodes... it's far more likely however, that they have much more time available.

As mentioned earlier, it isn't even required to deliver top notch animation for the whole series, but the general tone and artstyle could be enhanced a lot.

Meh... I don't know. We are in the digital age, they use 2d computer animation now - mistakes can be undone, changes can be made at any point in time without having to recreate the whole thing, cleanup artists are probably not a thing anymore and overall, what has been done by 2 different workers in the past, is now done by one in the same amount of time.
So with more money in the market, less staff required, how come schedule and budget remains such a big problem for many shows.

I actually think it's probably a lack of directors/direction that is at fault here too.


And then it also comes back to what I wrote earlier... isn't the consumer at fault too?
How come that shows with budget/scheduling problems survive in a market that is worth billions/millions.

[Ryllharu]

Western shows are cancelled by their networks. They don't cancel anime once it starts airing. It only ever gets cancelled during the planning and pre-production phases. That tells you a lot about where the financial situation is at. The series doesn't stop, but the whole studio goes under if they have too many bombs.

[Kraco]

Anime studios have been going bankrupt for years now, one by one. It's already decades old news animators barely make enough money for a single person to live. They can forget about families and hobbies, unless they marry someone with a normal salary. It's a wonder how anime is still being produced in the first place in the current numbers. The Japanese population is shrinking and they only spend their money on mobile shit these days. Maybe the little money the anime industry gets from abroad is what allowed it to exist this long. However, it's perfectly natural quality simply won't be there in normal, random productions.

Also, that short film was ridiculous. Maybe it had some decent animation, but I'm always greatly annoyed by a setting where enemies couldn't hit a barn door two meters away, yet the MC makes every bullet count perfectly. It won't get any praise from me. If you go through the trouble of animating something, at least think about what you are animating a little bit more carefully. Such wasted work and effort.

[KrayZ33]

Also, that short film was ridiculous. Maybe it had some decent animation, but I'm always greatly annoyed by a setting where enemies couldn't hit a barn door two meters away, yet the MC makes every bullet count perfectly. It won't get any praise from me. If you go through the trouble of animating something, at least think about what you are animating a little bit more carefully. Such wasted work and effort.

It's basically a stick figure animation clip. You can see the remains of that creators past from the animation of the soldiers and the scene inside the building. So he knew exactly what he is animating there.

I don't see how it would be a waste since that stuff is all about choreography and the John Wick factor.



this is basically the same thing.

(also kinda the cookie cutter formular for anime fights/baddass MCs, even in western movies.)