Then you really shouldn't have seen the need to comment in this thread either.
When someone is actually asking you to explain because he doesn't understand - you might as well answer/explain or not participate in the discussion in the first place.
Then you really shouldn't have seen the need to comment in this thread either.
When someone is actually asking you to explain because he doesn't understand - you might as well answer/explain or not participate in the discussion in the first place.
Okay....
Peace.
dude....
I did expect more than just trolling. If you want to look like you don't care, fine I guess. But we both know you freaking care too.
I actually wanted to hear your reasoning, I understood that you disliked the whole situation, because the queens "plan" was utterly stupid and didn't make sense. (and I agree)
But I still don't see the connection for Naofumi there when he (basically) asks for the execution to stop when he realised that he doesn't get his kick out of it.
I'm not trolling. I just replied so you know I read your post. I can use a different word if you'd like. If you don't care whether I read your post or not, then I won't reply.
Peace.
So, Kray, answer this pls: Are the civilians supposed to be happy about Naofumi's decision? I mean those who lost loved ones because of bitch slut and the king?
No - or rather, I don't know what they are supposed to think. It's hard for me to pin down whether they are actually at fault for anything like that. I didn't see (or don't remember) the king ordering anything like that or being directly responsible for the death of civilians. Same with SlutOriginally Posted by MFauli
Isn't the king basically a hero for them because he managed to summon 4 heroes instead of just one, wouldn't that mean more people have survived?
Anyway - that aside.
You made several good points in your last comment, but here is my explanation
Yes, but ethics changed and now we believe the highest good is happiness and life. We don't live in the medieval age anymore, we know about the value of life and thus we (and Naofumi too, since he is from "our" world) should act with that in mind.
When you ask about moral and ethics, I will use today's standard and not those of 1000 years ago.It's not an eye for an eye situation at all. There's a point that someone committed so much evil that he/she is irredeemable. See Hitler. Even in today's society you'd have to guard him, because people would demand his execution. Should Andrej Breivik ever get out of Swedish prison, he probably won't live for long - killing 87 young people does that.
Bitch Slut did worse. He action caused hundreds of deaths. This isn't about Naofumi's feelings, it's about a society's justice, and that world's justice involves the death penalty as a proper means of punishment. If Melty wasn't a sexy young woman, but a disgusting fat, old smelly guy, or just a full-on orc, you wouldn't even think about letting him stay alive, be honest.
You really have the audacity to call Naofumi less moral had he not stopped a 100% just punishment? Then your morals are seriously scewed up in the context of this anime.
So no, my morals are alright by today's standard I think. I know that "eye for an eye" doesn't literally imply that the culprit has to suffer the same crime (anymore). I know that "Justice" doesn't mean you have to punish murder with death so that he "gets what he deserves".
Justice means you punish the severest crime, with the severest punishment which our moral principles would allow us to impose.
What does that mean in this situation? By allowing Trash and Slut to live, he basically tells us that he values life over everything else, so high even, that he wouldn't even take it from those who took it from others. That's pretty much the moral code of all the european countries, I'd say. I believe the death penalty doesn't exist in any of the EU-Countries.
So yes, Naofumi would indeed be less moral if he allowed the execution, instead of trying to stop it.
At the very least, we can be certain that Naofumi's compassion is absolute.
That is more or less part of the whole issue. Not killing them is one thing, not going into prison for a really long time is another, that I don't agree with either. After all, I believe in punishment too.And let me add: Youre even igoring that Bitch Slut hasn't changed at all! She never apologized, never showed any growth. The name change and loss of title and wealth surely are humiliating, but guess what: She'll continue to scheme deadly crimes. Isn't it great that Naofumi let her live!!1 This is Batman-levels of dumb, 'i'll never kill the Joker ...oops, he broke out of Arkham and killed another 100 civilians, oh snap'.
I have no idea however whether that is actually the case... or if Naofumi had that in mind when he stopped the execution.
However, what you see as "justice" is rather barbaric and medieval. You'd certainly fit in in that world, but since you are living in a civilized world now, I'd expect something else
You actually seek *revenge*, it's not about justice, it's a "personal matter".
Moral and ethic are difficult topics, in this situation it's basically "iustitia" vs. "caritas"
Last edited by KrayZ33; Fri, 05-31-2019 at 12:34 PM.
You're basically killing the debate when you argue from current day rl morals - we're both against the death penalty, the end.
I think you're being too imperialistic/western-centric, though. This is a world where slavery is absolutely fine. That 'noble' queen allows it If we were to take the realities of this isekai into consideration, I'm sure you'd come to a different answer.
Ryaku shite: irl Naofumi would probably get lynched by the people
The thing is, Naofumi is a "current day"-person - so his morality is different from the world he is currently in. I don't even know what you mean when you say "to take the realities of this isekai into consideration".This is a world where slavery is absolutely fine. That 'noble' queen allows it If we were to take the realities of this isekai into consideration, I'm sure you'd come to a different answer.
You don't go to Iran and say "oh, stoning people is fine here - guess I'll do it too - after all, when in Rome, do as the Romans do...". Or what do you mean by that?
You don't go to Iran and demand that a stoning is cancelled without getting stoned yourself.
"May I introduce you to Jesus our god and savior?"
Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.
The 4 heroes are saints, now more than ever. They literally have the power to change the people and aren't generic soldiers that have no fellowship
And that *still* doesn't explain why you think it wouldn't put a dent on his "hero status" or why it wouldn't make him any "less moral" when he starts throwing stones all of a sudden (to use that example).
Naofumi is a person of the modern world - he has an advanced moral code that is a thousand years ahead. The people seek peace, safety and happiness just like we are today. That's not different - unlike the modern world however, they know even less than us about how to achieve it.
I mean, it's not like Naofumi doesn't care when people die around him - he just realised that he also cares when he thought he wouldn't care (i.e. when people he hates are getting "it").
edit: I wish that whole scene would've been as dramatic as you just pointed it out (I'm refering to your example about getting targeted for a good old stoning yourself, if you try to stop it).
Because that would truely turn his small perfomance of compassion into a fully fledged heroic deed.
But, alas, he merely tricked the population into thinking they get what they want.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Fri, 05-31-2019 at 05:08 PM.
Because Naofumi himself is the victim - that makes all the difference.
I said I'm against the death penalty. That is true and I really want our justice system to do all it can to uphold that. However, if I had a gf or daughter who got raped or murdered by some asshole ... i would kill him without a single nano second of regret. Modern law is void when you're personally involved.
That's why even from the modern perspective he'd have been moral to let them get executed: because he's their victim. As I said, from the perspective of this isekai, there's not even a debate that execution would have been just. But because Naofumi is personally involved with these scummy people, he had every moral legitimation to kill them. That's my opinion anyway.
Had he not been personally involved, you'd be right (from a modern times perspective). I absolutely hate idiots who call for some criminals severe punishment when they're not even personally involved. "What, he gets only 7 years of prison?!" - as if they had any idea how terrible 7 years in a prison are (that's a random example of how many people irl react to news).
And again, bitch slut and king didn't only attack Naofumi. They have countless innocents' blood on their hands. Letting these 2 go is ridiculous.
Woah. So you're against the death penalty for rapists of others' daughters but you'll kill the one who raped yours?
That's fucked up. What is the law even to you?
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Yes, what's fucked up here? It's called taking personal responsibility. I expect the government to prevent murder from happen. But I can't expect people not to feel differently on an individual basis. We shouldn't cheer on 'Punisher' methods, but it makes absolute sense from the pov of the involved people.
Mainly in that you believe "Modern law is void when you're personally involved" but that you're also somehow "against the death penalty".. until something bad happens to you personally - then whatever personal justice goes.
People are totally allowed and expected to "feel differently on an individual basis" - that's why some are against the death penalty, and some are for. In that case you're for the death penalty because you believe that's what should happen as just punishment.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
That's why we have the law and courts.
I sorta understand what Mfauli is saying. As a part of society, he understands that the death penalty is not the right way to go, but if he himself is harmed, he also understands that his emotions will get the better of his rationality and he will want to get revenge, not just justice.
I am pro death penalty but not in the way they have implemented it all over the world. I will only support it if they overhaul the qualifications, process, and cost.
Peace.
So explain to me how you are against the death penalty despite wanting to see certain crimes punishable by death MFauli.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
You're mixing up different viewpoints. That's the issue here.
From modern day society pov: against death penalty
From modern day personally involved pov: for death penalty
From isekai society pov: for death penalty
From isekai personally involved pov: for death penalty
That's the 4 different states. I don't want any crimes punishable by death.
The two bold lines are incompatible with each other - either you don't or you do wish to see certain crimes punished.
If you are against the death penalty (in any time-line), then you are against the killing of criminals even if they rape your daughter.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
I'm against the death penalty in practice over here. If I was isekaied to some fantasy world, I wouldn't be against it (unless it was used witlessly). However, I still do think some rare criminals would be better off executed (like terrorists and mass murderers), but for practical purposes I understand that's not going to happen. Death penalties are very rare in the current Europe, so suddenly introducing them might not fly very well. That's why I say in practice; it's the political reality.
Executing falsely accused people is one of the biggest problems of death penalties. Or at least it was. I feel like it's even more disgusting than police officers accidently shooting someone dead. These days it could be dealt with much better with the modern crime and crime scene investigation techniques and technologies. That's how some American death row men were set free before they had their meeting with the headsman.
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