Rape and morality in popular media

[shinta|hikari]

@Buff - I just used environmentalist as a random analogy, so the details you mentioned didn't even matter in my head.

Why would you even want to identify as a feminist vs just being egalitarian then? If all you wanted was to be seen as someone who treats people equally, why adopt a really loaded term that has way more range in meaning than you ascribe to it? As Kraco said, feminism is not just gender egalitarianism.

Also, the goalpost is still far from being passed even in North America and Australia. The pay gap is still there, and there are still a lot of harassment and power abuse against women (i.e. Ryll's post about hepeating). There's still a lot to do, and saying that there isn't is actually contradictory to being a feminist.

Just saying you support something without, say, donating to movements or actively informing people of the existing disparity isn't exactly supporting it IMO. But that all boils down to the semantics of "support" so there's really nothing to discuss anymore.

I'm not saying I myself will do anything, well, because I'm not a feminist.

[Buffalobiian]

Not to mention many modern feminists aren't interested in equality but rather reforming the world to their liking.

Just because many vocal modern so-called feminists skew our perceptions and use this label to enhance women's powers rather than struggling for equality of opportunity and rights (rather than equality of outcomes) doesn't change the fact that feminism at its core and basic definition is about gender equality.


@Shinta:

It's a bit complicated in terms of whether I do or don't want to identify as a feminist. Let me explain.

-The term nowadays has become skewed by modern, vocal parties to suggest people who are really pushy in furthering women's agendas. It's at a point where one may even actively avoid identifying themselves as a feminist to avoid these connotations. But feminism at its core is gender egalitarianism. To say that you're not a feminist is basically saying you don't believe in equal gender treatments.

That's why I make a point that feminism isn't about being pushy, loud, and lobbying for women's benefits at every opportunity. It's about equal rights, nor more rights.

Loud, pushy feminism to classic feminism (read: gender egalitarianism) is like what ISIS is to Islam. The minority who use the name loudly and almost destructively skews people's definitions and perspectives of the whole.

That's why I make a point of this.

This Forbes article discusses a similar issue.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathyca.../#583c55e37e8e




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As for pay-gap, it's a measure that corresponds to variables. Gender discrimination has a role to play, but by and large it comes down to choice of career. In a management level and high-ranking jobs with individual contracts (as opposed to award-mandated wages), that comes down to assertiveness in negotiations.

As for hepeating, I don't see that in my career as being caused by gender. It's caused by (a lack of) assertiveness, or at times charisma/delivery.

I do recognise that just because I don't observe hepeating does not mean that it is absent in other societies or occupations however. I'll take your word for this that you guys see it elsewhere, and when it does happen I agree that credit should be given where it's due. I have more junior doctors or medical students suggest ideas that get ignored, and I make it a point later to say "this idea came from xyz", but I fail to see it as a gender issue. It's an assertiveness/seniority issue. Gender may be associated with it if females are on average less assertive than males, but that isn't causative.

[shinta|hikari]

I totally agree with your view of how the word feminism is now perceived and how that came to be, which was why I asked why you even want to be associated to it, when you can just call yourself (gender) egalitarian and people would understand you without all the added baggage.

As for existing sexism, it is more prevalent in some industries but not in others. In my personal experience in IT, I've never seen females treated less than males, but maybe that's owed to the sheer diversity of the people working there. That said, I've heard about it happening from people I know, and statistics about it shouldn't be hard to find online.

I do sort of agree with your view that assertiveness plays a factor, and also do think women are less assertive than men in general just from my experience, but that's also because they are playing into the gender expectations for them which are so ingrained into society and people's minds. That's actually one of the things legit feminists fight against, the antiquated perceptions of femininity, such as being modest and quiet.

[Ryllharu]

There are "waves" of Feminism, and it is interesting to watch it shift from degrees of gained freedoms to levels of extremism. The First Wave was suffrage and other legal issues, 2nd Wave dealt with sexuality, workplace equality, reproductive rights, and addressing rape. I think 2nd Wave is what the majority of people think when they think about Feminism with a capital "F."

The majority of the Western World doesn't disagree with the ideas of 2nd Wave feminism. There are societies that haven't achieved it yet. That's where the worldwide community should be focusing. Instead we got 3rd Wave and 4th Wave feminism. They're both vague, they're both culture zeitgeist related, and they both have no clearly defined goal. First, it was all well and good, and then 3rd started attacking 2nd. Then 4th started attacking 3rd. Then 3rd retaliated. And then some feminists fight each other, or anyone for any reason, rather than concerning themselves with making progress.

/shrug

As for hepeating. It's hard to notice at first, but it has nothing to do with assertiveness or lack thereof, charisma or delivery. Once you start noticing it, it really is kinda pathetic that it actually is a thing. Your colleague might have a great idea, and she will just get completely brushed over. The ignoring doesn't even seem to be a conscious thing. Other women will even do it to other women! (Other women will ignore a peer, then concur with the same idea once a man says it.)

You have to actively look for it to notice it. Thinking back won't get you there. I didn't realize how often it happened until I learned about the term and concept.

It is baffling.

Or maybe ask a female colleague about it, and if she has seen it happen to her or another woman.

[Buffalobiian]

I do sort of agree with your view that assertiveness plays a factor, and also do think women are less assertive than men in general just from my experience, but that's also because they are playing into the gender expectations for them which are so ingrained into society and people's minds. That's actually one of the things legit feminists fight against, the antiquated perceptions of femininity, such as being modest and quiet.

I wonder about that. (edit: that may be true.. but in the same way that one believes "I'll be happier if I'm nicer to people".)

I'll include here the (hilariously frustrating) interview between Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman here addressing this (wage gap discussion happens around 5mins in):



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The following 3hr video is tangential to the above discussion (in that it's related to morality and social structures), but it's one of the rarer interviews where an interviewer is interested in Peterson's views and not in simply challenging them. (Dr Oz, surprisingly enough). It's also the best one.

[Ryllharu]

It was infuriating how often Cathy Newman was putting words in his mouth in lieu of ever actually making a counterpoint.

Journalists in general seem to loathe Peterson because his views contrast the narrative threads that many newspapers and their websites push with regards to feminism, the pay gap, pronouns, etc., so it is hard to get an actual read his stances on things and overall attitude.

[Buffalobiian]

It was infuriating how often Cathy Newman was putting words in his mouth in lieu of ever actually making a counterpoint.

I can tolerate her misinterpreting things, but I lost it when she goes "Aren't you basically a shit-stirrer" twice. Way to go.

[Kraco]

I do sort of agree with your view that assertiveness plays a factor, and also do think women are less assertive than men in general just from my experience, but that's also because they are playing into the gender expectations for them which are so ingrained into society and people's minds. That's actually one of the things legit feminists fight against, the antiquated perceptions of femininity, such as being modest and quiet.

Sounds to me like evolution and testosterone would affect that assertiveness as well. If that's the case, women can't really do anything about it (hopefully, lest they cease being women), so the world should develop to cope with it.

[Ryllharu]

"Women keeping themselves down" is peer pressure and demand for conformity from the society they're in. Sometimes it is even regional, or city to city.

It's also applicable to men, in different ways.

The best people in my life are those who don't give a shit about what others expect them to be like and act like.

[shinta|hikari]

About the first video, I find that interviewer did a disservice to all women by acting the part of the irrational, hysterical, and loud female lambasting a rational, composed, and eloquent male. It was also sad to see how she is trying to vilify the dude's every statement by making it seem "things as they are" are "things as he wants them to be." Unlike what he mentioned in the interview, she wasn't doing that to search for the truth. She was doing it to provoke him and to gather attention.

EDIT:

Since we're all men here, I'm curious. What do you think about the gender equality in your respective countries? Is there a lot of work left to do or is it already a touchdown?

[Kraco]

Since we're all men here, I'm curious. What do you think about the gender equality in your respective countries? Is there a lot of work left to do or is it already a touchdown?

Finland sits in Top 5 in gender equality, so much has been done. That being said, of course there's still work to be done. Our previous president was a woman, with the two consecutive terms in office, so technically women can climb the ladder as high as possible. Still, most notable politicians remain men, although there are plenty of female politicians around, including party leaders and ministers (a cabinet without female ministers would be unthinkable already). However, the person with the actual highest power, the prime minister, has been quite solidly a man. Neither of the only two female prime ministers in history sat the whole term. In the armed forces, the commander's position remain quite distant for female officers for the time being, but then again, the military has only been open for women for a couple of decades.

Gender pay gap exists, but is quite small or doesn't exist if the job title is the same. It's mainly generated by the division of jobs (more women in jobs paying less), plus men doing more overtime and having slightly longer careers due to various factors. CEOs and such are still more typically men, but naturally not nearly always.

Although development has for the most part been positive, general safety unfortunately hasn't been. Still in the 90's even in bigger cities most women would dare to walk the streets at night alone, apart from some parts of the capital, but these days there are more and more women who would refuse to do it in practice. The fact Finland is still among the very safest countries is, in light of that, just a sad indication of the situation in the whole world.

[Ryllharu]

The US in general is pretty well understood if you look at my post about the feminism waves, and well documented in general. Women can do pretty much whatever they want, and the only thing holding themselves back is themselves at this point. But biases still exist, for sure. They're generally minor, but pervasive, and range from being counterintuitive to demeaning.

US Politics is a shitshow and a circus, so I'm not getting into that.

Businesses? Women are pretty well represented. I might be biased because women are really well represented at the Cxx level in my industry.

Our Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard have all been very good at improving female officers opportunities by leveling the playing field for anyone to rise through the ranks without compromising effectiveness or the qualifications. The government has been really good at managing that. Outside of the officers is another story. The Navy is pretty good, the Coast Guard is very good, but the Air Force is infamous for how bad it gets. That said, the civilian sides of each of these branches have a lot of women in management positions.
Can't speak for the Army because I don't know.

So call it 1st and Goal.

edit:
As for personal safety? Well...guns are the great equalizer...

[Buffalobiian]

"In 2017, Australia was ranked 35th on a global index measuring gender equality, slipping from a high point of 15th in 2006. While Australia scores very highly in the area of educational attainment, there is still a lot of progress to be made in the areas of economic participation and opportunity and political empowerment."



I think Australia has largely followed other commonwealth countries as far as advances go.

Medicine is pretty evenly matched as far as workforce participation goes. Some fields are dominated by males (primarily surgical specialities), and surgical specialities are purportedly where the majority of harassment happens (in general, sexual or not).

Female nurses outnumber male nurses probably 3:1 to 2:1 at the very least.

Politically we've had a female prime minister, but she didn't sit full term. That said, no one has since John Howard.

I wouldn't have advised walking the streets at night for any of the 30 decades I've been alive. Inner city is alright because of the number of lights and people still around at that time, but in suburbs I'd definitely advocate for a car.

[Assertn]

Is this it? The last active thread here is a rape and morality thread?

[Kraco]

Is this it? The last active thread here is a rape and morality thread?

I see. It took rape and immorality to make Assertn return.

[Assertn]

I see. It took rape and immorality to make Assertn return.

I show up from time to time after watching a dope one piece episode, but I'm not going to just respond to myself, lol.

[shinta|hikari]

This was just an offshoot of discussions in, believe it or not, the anime threads.

[KrayZ33]

I'll include here the (hilariously frustrating) interview between Jordan Peterson and Cathy Newman here addressing this (wage gap discussion happens around 5mins in):

*gasgpiabspgasgsga* - this is frustrating!!! That woman puts so much shit into his mouth, it's unbelievable. And she is also a little bit dense.

That whole gender-pay-gap discussion doesn't make sense anyway. The easiest argument would be that companies would never pay more than necessary if they get the same work and traits for less. Capitalism doesn't care about gender, it's all about the money.

It's even easier to see in physical jobs like consturction or logistics... women are required to carry/lift less, *by law*, so they are basically doing a different job by "design" even though it's in the same "category" when you look at the pay.
So why wouldn't someone demand more money, or why wouldn't be a boss willing to pay more, when he gets more/something different/something he needs that he can't get out of the other sex.

[Buffalobiian]

Women by law carry less stuff in Germany? That's amazing. I've never heard of that in Australia.

[Kraco]

That whole gender-pay-gap discussion doesn't make sense anyway. The easiest argument would be that companies would never pay more than necessary if they get the same work and traits for less. Capitalism doesn't care about gender, it's all about the money.

I used that "companies never pay more than necessary" as a counter-argument in high school when a female student gave a presentation about equality and the gender gap. Somehow my argument wasn't too well received, no matter how neutrally I put it. Already back then there were people who couldn't handle any feedback that didn't directly support their simplistic views.

Still, like I said in my earlier post, the pay gap is easier to solve when the job title is same, and a lot has been solved already there. However, it's not so easy when you look at the average salary of all the women and men in the whole working population of the country. Then it's usually more evident that men are more often in better paying jobs, women in jobs with a lower salary, or men earn more due to different kinds of extras, like working more overtime. At least over here, but the situation could be totally different in other countries. This is quite an ambiguous issue. In the first place it's difficult to see what should be done about it, how, and where exactly. It would be impossible to have every profession have even roughly 50% men, 50% women, and then even all the variables, like women staying longer at home to look after small children.