Ballroom e Youkoso

[KrayZ33]

It would've been so badass of Tatara to simply adjust his tie after the final dance, look super gloomy, and not speak to Chinatsu for the rest of the day. Especially since that music that was playing in the background would've been a perfect fit for that. (I really like the background music in this show)

And Hyodo's mom is a bitch too. What does she even mean when she says Tatara is leaving "all the work" to the girl. So if Tatara leads, he's doing all the work and that's fine then I guess...?

Bill is too hard on Chinatsu. That girl did never get to follow properly..
Chinatsu is basically the expert here who's studied the topic for years, and Tatara the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about and is basing all his decisions and thoughts on that one paper he read.
And you expect Chinatsu to consider Tatara's inputs at face value.

It's not that easy.

The training makes it obvious that Tatara can't even bring out Chinatsu's dancing skills properly... that's also something Tatara has to work on. Chinatsu has to work on herself too of course but I think anyone can relate to a situation where you are being held back by someone else and want to take the lead.

Even Tatara himself realised that - which makes him a so much better and more likeable character already. And I'm happy that Chinatsu realised what Tatara was doing too...I loved it when she moved her pinky finger and Tatara was like:

"Oh you want to do a flip-flop 180° double turn aerial tuck pike?! 'Aight, gotcha'!

and Chinatsu looked like "DUDE SAY WHAAAT?"

[Ryllharu]

Right, Buff is being way too hard on her. Akira and their instructors never let Chinatsu try, and Akira's defense for that is that she was shorter and bustier?! Even more interesting is that Chinatsu had all the girly accessories for being a follow, but was never allowed to use them even though she was clearly practicing with them.

Hyodo's mom is correct as well. Tatara needs to learn how to be good himself. She was saying he's been relying on his partners to get them wins. Fading into the background like he did with Mako only works when you have someone as good as Mako or Shizuku. Since Chinatsu is starting again from the ground up, he can't let the girls do all the work.

She was telling him the reason they're not in first place.

Hyodo's mom likes him, remember? Or at least finds him interesting. She's trying to help him, not insult him.

[KrayZ33]

I think so too (the liking part)

But the way she says it makes it sound as if there is *always* someone who is slacking and not doing anything. I mean, she is skilled enough to see what Tatara was doing (see Tenpei Cup). I'm not sure what she could've said - but don't make it sound as if there is the "leader" that has to do something and that's it then.

[Buffalobiian]

Bill is too hard on Chinatsu. That girl did never get to follow properly..
Chinatsu is basically the expert here who's studied the topic for years, and Tatara the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about and is basing all his decisions and thoughts on that one paper he read.
And you expect Chinatsu to consider Tatara's inputs at face value.

It's not that easy.

The training makes it obvious that Tatara can't even bring out Chinatsu's dancing skills properly... that's also something Tatara has to work on. Chinatsu has to work on herself too of course but I think anyone can relate to a situation where you are being held back by someone else and want to take the lead.

She still needs to follow, because that's her role. She needs to support Tatara and train him outside of competitions, not go off on her own. See, you have 3 possible scenarios:

1) Chinatsu lets Tatara lead properly, and follows their pre-reheared, Tatara-level dance. It's not fantastic, but it'll do. This is the ideal scenario.

2) Chinatsu does her own thing and pushes Tatara around, while Tatara's trying to do his job as leader. This isn't even a dance. It looks horrible and viewers wonder if they've even rehearsed because they are out of sync. This is what happened earlier, and is not ideal.

3) Chinatsu does her own thing, and Tatara the miracle worker somehow syncs in near-real-time with her. They manage to dance with dynamic moves. Chinatsu looks great because she's doing her own thing, and Tatara's strained, but barely managing to not hold her back or screw things up. This has short term benefits, but long term only perpetuates this dysfunctional team.

What Chinatsu should aim for is 1), but she went ahead with 2) with poor results as expected. Tatara managed to save their team into 2nd place.

Chinatsu can teach Tatara off-competition by leading for him and showing him moves, which he should then be able to emulate as a leader. In any case, the fact she thrust her pelvis into him to make him move was bad. That's not a case of "Sorry, I'm bad at following". That was a case of "I'm leading bitch, move how I want you to."

I understand Chinatsu has never had a chance to try. That excuses her for being shit. What I see and can't forgive her her lack of trying right now.


edit:

Hyodo's mom is correct as well. Tatara needs to learn how to be good himself. She was saying he's been relying on his partners to get them wins. Fading into the background like he did with Mako only works when you have someone as good as Mako or Shizuku. Since Chinatsu is starting again from the ground up, he can't let the girls do all the work.

Don't be confused. Chinatsu sucks at following the leader's cues, but she does not suck at dancing out the moves of a follow. Tatara predict-dancing with Mako isn't actually fundamentally different than with Chinatsu. The only difference is that Mako will follow Tatara's lead when he's not doing prediction. Chinatsu won't.

Chinatsu shadow-dancing as a follow is superb. The issue? She has no partner in mind. It's all about her and what she wants.

When Hyodo shadows, he does so with Shizuku in mind. When Tatara shadows, he does so with his partner in mind. Chinatsu does no such thing. Her dancing is 100% about what she thinks is correct and ought to be.

[KrayZ33]

She still needs to follow, because that's her role. She needs to support Tatara and train him outside of competitions, not go off on her own.

That's what these episodes are about and no one is arguing that.

It's just that Tatara sucks at leading and Chinatsu is probably a *much* better dancer too so she wants to show off her skill. It's difficult to adjust to someone who is inferior to you, especially if you know how to do it properly and the other guy doesn't.

What you are suggesting is to put all the work on Chinatsu - but it's not only her that has to change, it's also Tatara.

1) won't do it btw. and that's the thing.

[Buffalobiian]

What you are suggesting is to put all the work on Chinatsu - but it's not only her that has to change, it's also Tatara.

Quite the opposite actually. Tatara has to do the work and improve.

During practice, Chinatsu has to teach and bring him up to speed if possible.
During competition, Chinatsu has to follow and let them perform what they've accomplished to date during practice.

During comp, you don't say "fuck practice" and dance out of sync or character compared to your practice runs.

1) won't win you competitions from the beginning necessarily, but it's how you improve the team while maintaining the team. The follow should never lead pretty much. Even when this worked out for Mako, Mako wouldn't make her move unless Tatara lead her to it. That's the difference.

"Have a move in mind Mako, and show what you want to do, but do not make that move unless Tatara guides you to." -Sengoku.

It's just that Tatara sucks at leading and Chinatsu is probably a *much* better dancer too so she wants to show off her skill.

You are 100% correct. If Chinatsu could dance alone, she would. But she can't, because that's not a thing. Tatara is the prerequisite she grabbed just so she could compete with Akira and "show off her skill". She has no regards for his abilities or desires during a dance, or to even look like a pair.

---------------------------------------

She still needs to follow, because that's her role. She needs to support Tatara and train him outside of competitions, not go off on her own.

That's what these episodes are about and no one is arguing that.

To me you guys seem to be finding Chinatsu's "accidental leading" during the competition excusable given her background. I'm arguing that it's not excusable.

[KrayZ33]

The question is why you think it's not excusable, considering that she never could train to follow.

You are putting an offensive player into a defensive position for the first time in his life and complain about him pushing forward too much.

She has never been led before, so someone who can't lead isn't really helping her understand how it feels to be the partner and not the leader. During the flashback you could see that the only training she has done as a follow was dancing by herself - which obviously, is not following since you yourself decide what you want to do next.

[Buffalobiian]

The question is why you think it's not excusable, considering that she never could train to follow.

Because the basic idea of following - is to move however your leader wants you to.
You may do the job poorly and get things wrong (as Chinatsu does), but never forget this basic fact. Never stop trying to follow.

As soon as she pushed Tatara with her body to make him follow her, she lost all respect from me during that episode. She stopped trying to follow and began ignoring her leader.

During the flashback you could see that the only training she has done as a follow was dancing by herself.

She's been practicing with Tatara, who also notes that she didn't dance as she did during practice. All she has to do is emulate practice - what's what competitions are about. She got "fired up", as Ryll would put it, and started dancing on her own.

To do that, is to fundamentally forgo your role. I'd say it's more akin to putting your goalkeeper on the field, say "your one job is to never use your hands", and they use their hands. That's how basic it is. Being "fired up" doesn't cut it.

addit:

[KrayZ33]

As soon as she pushed Tatara with her body to make him follow her, she lost all respect from me during that episode. She stopped trying to follow and began ignoring her leader.

Which is a normal thing to do when the leader can't lead properly.

As for her not dancing like they did in practice: Yes, that happened because she wanted to show off to her friend.
Seeing how Tatara can't keep up as soon as Chinatsu goes a little overboard, or "wild", shows how much he has to learn.

As I said earlier, Tatara is just as much "at fault" here as is Chinatsu.
You blame Chinatsu for not knowing how to follow, but you don't blame Tatara for not knowing how to lead. Double standards. Both their issues are based off the same lack of experience.

[Buffalobiian]

You blame Chinatsu for not knowing how to follow, but you don't blame Tatara for not knowing how to lead.

I have clarified this earlier: I blame them both equally for not knowing how to follow, and not knowing how to lead.

I blame Chinatsu for pushing Tatara around and doing things on her own just because "she wanted to show off to her friend". That is, I blame her additionally for giving up trying.

See the IRC quote above: "If Tatara makes Chinatsu dance at 1% capacity due to both their incompetence, Chinatsu should dance that way."

Chinatsu dances differently to how Tatara wants her to because she thinks she is right, and he is wrong. She should follow his wrong lead.

[KrayZ33]

Who is even saying she shouldn't have handeled this differently? On that part we agree

The discussion you had with Ryl earlier and now with me is about you not being reasonable enough.
Tatara isn't a dick and failure just because he doesn't know how to lead yet.
Which means Chinatsu isn't a bitch just because she doesn't know how to follow yet.

And the episode 14 post you made here doesn't even sound remotely like you'd blame both of them.
You even said, specifically, that Chinatsu is at fault here.

Sure thing she is too, but at the same time, she is also not.

I don't think it would be correct for her to dance at 1% capacity even if Tatara is only able to handle that.
That would put the full responsibility on Tatara - and that's pathetic.
She'd become "the partner that always relies on him to lead her like a dog on a leash"

[Buffalobiian]

Why complain about them for being equally shit at their job? That's known already.

I'm complaining about her abandoning her job despite that. That's the whole point, and that I look highly down on that instead of saying it's reasonable.

I don't think it would be correct for her to dance at 1% capacity even if is only able to handle that.
That would put the full responsibility on Tatara - and that's pathetic.

That's the point. It's been stated before that ballroom dancing is largely dependant on the lead. If Tatara's lead is weak then so be it. You dance to it, and fix it outside of comp. The inability to lead is Tatara's full responsibility.

It's about getting the process correct regardless of poor results, and repeating this process until you get good. It's not about abandoning your lead/follow roles for quick results that have no long term benefits. That's what Chinatsu opted to do here. That's what's not acceptable.

Like Marissa said a few episodes ago, proper leading and following with impromtu communication is actually very difficult. Most competition dances are actually just re-enactments of practice. That's why you rehearse. This concept is especially important for our current duo as they can't lead/follow correctly anyway. All they can do is dance to what they've rehearsed.

So when you do things your own way without communicating to your partner, you're not playing a team sport anymore. You're jeopardising the team.

I'm glad we all agree she should have handled this differently. Where we differ, is that I consider this a discourtesy, a basic error, and deserving of a bitchslap.

[KrayZ33]

You dance to it, and fix it outside of comp. The inability to lead is Tatara's full responsibility.

But that part is bullshit.

What would you do if she went on and said.
"Oh, I could have won you know, but my partner sucks - it's not my fault that we are not D-Class"
Could you blame her then?

This is what deserves a bitch slap.

Not giving it her all is too. Their balance was never good to begin with - this is also something Tatara realised himself.
The reason why Chinatsu is leading is because Tatara isn't doing it. Her actually doing it is because she doesn't know how to follow and not having the lead she needs.

You expect someone who has never followed to follow a leader that has never led.
Of course it won't go on without problems, especially when the person who follows used to lead, and the person who leads is actually following the partners wishes.

If you say Chinatsu had to follows Tatara's poor lead, then yeah, she probably had to do exactly that - that would've been the perfect scenario.
But why don't we bitch slap Tatara for not leading properly too?

For the very same reason - they don't know what they are doing.

edit: She didn't "give up" on following, she doesn't know what it means to follow.
That's the difference in our perspective. That's also why "I'll only dance to 1% of my ability" is not going to work for her.

[shinta|hikari]

Partners should follow the lead. She did so in practice, but she made a conscious decision not to do that in the contest, ignoring what Tatara wants. She also admitted to this error, so it isn't even up for contention.

Whether you want to condemn her for it or not is entirely a matter of personal values. I don't care enough to do either.

[Buffalobiian]

Partners should follow the lead. She did so in practice, but she made a conscious decision not to do that in the contest, ignoring what Tatara wants. She also admitted to this error, so it isn't even up for contention.

^ This. Thank you for clarrifying that Shinta.

What would you do if she went on and said.
"Oh, I could have won you know, but my partner sucks - it's not my fault that we are not D-Class"
Could you blame her then?

This above example is hypothetical, but I'll go with it. She'd be wrong - they wouldn't have won.
Scenario 2, where Tatara and her both try to lead each other, would not have had good results.

Ballroom dancing is a sport about synchronised movements, in its simplest terms. And as with all synchronisation, you do so with the lowest common denominator. Value synchronisation first, then the difficulty of your moves - not the other way around.

[KrayZ33]

^ This. Thank you for clarrifying that Shinta.

I mean, we all get that part where she took and forced the lead

This above example is hypothetical, but I'll go with it. She'd be wrong - they wouldn't have won.
Scenario 2, where Tatara and her both try to lead each other, would not have had good results.

Ballroom dancing is a sport about synchronised movements, in its simplest terms. And as with all synchronisation, you do so with the lowest common denominator. Value synchronisation first, then the difficulty of your moves - not the other way around.

But to realize that would mean she is good at following and has experience in doing so, which she isn't and has none.
And her not synchronizing well is also Tatara's fault and Tatara did well to realize that he can only go by if he acts like he did during the Tenpei Cup. Especially since their training was obviously awful too.

If I'm not mistaken, the partner "follows" right? If the partner doesn't get a proper lead, she can't follow and thus they can't synchronize their moves. Even less so if that partner used to call the shots.
(or are you telling me during practice Tatara was the one leading?... he was clearly not)

I mean, on one hand, we have her who could lead Tatara through a perfect dance with moves he has never done before, even though he never followed before.
On the other hand, we have Tatara who obviously can't even remotely control someone who has, just like him, 0 experience in following.

To put it in his Tatara's own words, a lead that can't lead and a partner that is bad at following.
Don't know how to call it other than the "polar opposite of faultiness" or something
If one deservers a bitch slap, so does the other - one for not doing the job of a leader, the other for not doing the job of a follow. It's as much of a leaders job to keep the partner (team) in line as it is the partner's (teammember) job to stay in line.

And the best of both world happens when the leader is able to lead while also keeping ideas of his team/partner in mind... which at one point, Tatara will surely excel in since he can literally "feel" what the partner wants/thinks.

[shinta|hikari]

I see where the disconnect is. The Anti-redhead faction says that Redhead consciously stole the lead, an action that is unrelated to her skill or experience at following. The Pro-redhead faction says that Redhead consciously stole the lead, not realizing how terrible a decision that was because she has little experience at following.

I actually understand both sides and don't think they are mutually exclusive. It's just a matter of personal values on whether you will and how gravely you will fault ignorance. Redhead's conscious decision (which was objectively wrong) was only made because she didn't know any better and thought it was a good thing somehow. No one goes all out to sabotage themselves, after all.

[KrayZ33]

Btw, does anyone know how the ranking systems in dancing works if you have a new partner?

Would Sengoku have to start as a novice again if his partner stopped dancing?
Where and how do you level up... you can't possibly rank higher in every single tournament, right? That would eventually mean you have too many A ranks.

[KrayZ33]

Episode 15

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I didn't like it that much, because it felt like they skipped a lot of training and Chinatsu is so "calm" all of a sudden, or at least there was basically no reflection on their perfromance.
Isn't this tournament they are going to now several month "in the future" from where they were at 2 episodes ago or something? What happened in that time... I wanted to see that.

I'm disappointed, but at the same time, I want it to be next week's saturday again.

[Buffalobiian]

And her not synchronizing well is also Tatara's fault and Tatara did well to realize that he can only go by if he acts like he did during the Tenpei Cup. Especially since their training was obviously awful too.

If I'm not mistaken, the partner "follows" right? If the partner doesn't get a proper lead, she can't follow and thus they can't synchronize their moves. Even less so if that partner used to call the shots.
(or are you telling me during practice Tatara was the one leading?... he was clearly not)

During practice, you learn what you're supposed to do. Even without the leader, you'd know what you're supposed to do given you practiced your regime. The leader will simply set the timing during the actual dance. You know you're supposed to do a Spin A, Turn B and Flip C as per practice.

This episode highlighted everything I had in mind:

At this level, leading is everything. Tatara's lead is everything, and the ability to dance and win is also his full responsibility. They need to start back at basics, have Chinatsu dance basic moves to match Tatara, and forego competition wins if they have to in order to nail down the basics.

Isn't this tournament they are going to now several month "in the future" from where they were at 2 episodes ago or something?

It's 1 month post starting at Marisa's place, shortly after he rocked up. It'd be no more than 2 months post their D-Rank comp, I'd say much closer to 1 month.