This has nothing to do with standards...
And it's only an improvement from your point of view. It bothers me that you make it sound so objectively. There was no need to show affection there, it's just you who *wanted* to see that.
Yatori is by no means dense or cold-hearted just because she didn't grab him and let him sob onto her big, well endowed chest.
And it's not like she didn't try to comfort him in the first place...
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 04:36 AM.
LOL, why are you always so touchy when it comes to standards? We've been through this before. Posts are just opinions. So is claiming that I have better taste. It's tongue in cheek humor that you were supposed to chuckle at, like "coz I'm God."
The implied point of my last post was, it doesn't really matter if most of you think differently. In the end, that's also just an opinion. Numbers don't equal correctness. Think democracy and Trump. Oh, and Brexit.
Take note, this doesn't mean I'm factually right either. I just wanted to point out that the superior numbers argument is empty and kills discussion.
Putting that aside (because it really isn't relevant to this thread at all), I didn't notice Yatori try to comfort him. Was it when she looked at him straight? I don't remember her doing anything beyond that.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 07:43 AM.
Peace.
How am I "touchy" just because I decide to answer and discuss your points...
If all you want to do is troll and look for "waki", I guess go ahead, at least I'd know for sure then that you don't want to talk/write with anyone here.
Also, especially since we had this discussion several times, it's rather obvious that you didn't mean this as a joke when you said that.
Basically the whole conversation they had before Ikta stopped and kneeled down was her comforting him.Putting that aside (because it really isn't relevant to this thread at all), I didn't notice Yatori try to comfort him. Was it when she looked at him straight? I don't remember her doing anything beyond that.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 08:06 AM.
I wasn't trolling. I was implying your comment about "most of us don't think like you, so you're wrong" argument is empty. Saying that doesn't really mean anything and discourages discussion because you're pressuring with numbers.
Adding quote:
I understand you didn't get my initial tongue in cheek remark (perhaps it was too veiled, which is my shortcoming), but I explained it in my previous post.Originally Posted by KrayZ33
I meant touchy in a joking manner. See the LOL at the start? It's just happened so many times before I couldn't help but bring it up. You call me out on "pretending to be objective" when I never really think or do that.
Claiming that I don't want to talk/discuss when I'm probably the heaviest poster (and yes, I post stuff other than waki that generates discussion, like this talk about Yatori's lack of reaction, for example) in GW this year is ridiculous. That's a baseless accusation. Why would you even say that?
EDIT:
Just saw your edit. Gotcha. I thought you meant AFTER the ribbon scene.
EDIT 2:
I meant it as a witty reply. Perhaps too witty that it was hard to understand (this isn't a hit at you, it's more my shortcoming for not realizing it was too confusing). You seem to have a very twisted image of me as someone who believes himself objective, when that is farthest from the truth. I'm the first person to call someone out when they use the word "objectively" in their posts.
Just because I omit the "I think" prefixes in my comments doesn't mean I'm claiming factuality. It's a given. Moreover, I've actually put in effort to place "I think" in a lot of my posts recently (at your request, remember the whole ruckus about posting tone?), especially criticisms.
That's (the whole discussion about posting tone, which we even took to PM) precisely why I thought you'd get the irony in my post about "standards" and realize it was a tongue in cheek remark. Basically, you should know me enough by now.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 08:31 AM.
Peace.
Maybe I've been playing too many online games but when someone writes "LOL" in the beginning of a sentence, especially when people are having a discussion, it isn't normally supposed to introduce a joke/witty comment.
and my "most of us don't think like you, so you're wrong" wasn't empty when you literally wrote "it looks like she is X", obviously, when a lot of people disagree, it doesn't look like X at all and it's at best up to the individual how he interprets that scene.
I can go and say "This tree looks like a big stone", when people tell me it doesn't, maybe my view on it is somewhat twisted? Obviously they could remain silent - but they'd be like "wtf?"
I say that because you just said it one or two posts before... what is there for me to say other than, write what you mean and mean what you write, use /s, be more obvious, whatver. Leaving out the "I think" is a huge part of how someone will view your comment - at least introduce the train of thought with it, it doesn't mean you have to reuse it for everything you say. You are making a point that is up to debate if you don't use it. If I had (and it seems like I have)to guess and reconsider the meaning of what your sentences *actually* mean, I'd rather not do it at all, it's too much of a hassle.Claiming that I don't want to talk/discuss when I'm probably the heaviest poster (and yes, I post stuff other than waki that generates discussion, like this talk about Yatori's lack of reaction, for example) in GW this year is ridiculous. That's a baseless accusation. Why would you even say that?
Well, I did go so far as explain the vague parts. I just think you should trust the explanation more than your knee-jerk reactions. If I wanted to troll you, I wouldn't go so far as explaining everything I meant politely, would I? Misunderstandings happen in text.
About the numbers, it's an empty argument because it doesn't challenge the claim directly. Instead of pointing out evidence why you disagree, you merely mention that "a lot of us disagree, and therefore we are more correct." That's a fallacy, because the majority isn't always correct.
Many geniuses have been called insane in their time. Just to be crystal clear, I'm not saying I'm a genius, but that historical fact serves as evidence as to why I don't believe in the argument of numbers. The majority may be missing certain details the minority noticed. The majority may simply not care about the possibility of improving something (think inventions).
So instead of using the numbers argument, I think it's better to simply point out details or evidence to back up why you disagree.
Peace.
Or I'll just appeal to your common sense and ask you why exactly you think she is dense and heartless. You watched the show yourself, what is there for me to point at other than the scene itself.About the numbers, it's an empty argument because it doesn't challenge the claim directly. Instead of pointing out evidence why you disagree, you merely mention that "a lot of us disagree, and therefore we are more correct." That's a fallacy, because the majority isn't always correct.
to quote myself:
"There was no need to show affection there, it's just you who *wanted* to see that.
Yatori is by no means dense or cold-hearted just because she didn't grab him and let him sob onto her big, well endowed chest.
And it's not like she didn't try to comfort him in the first place... "
It's shipping ~ wishful thinking, which is why I said it's not about "higher standards". The scene would've had the same effect on these terms on (obviously only "most") people whether they pamper your/our shipping or not. There is also something called consistency. Having Ikta break and Yatori comforting him more than she did already would've been an out of character experience for a good chunk of people.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 09:00 AM.
How can you claim that Yatori isn't dense? I think that's up in the air at the moment. I am referring specifically to Ikta's reaction to the ribbon. All she did was stand there and look at him. What that means is completely unknown right now. Granted, there also isn't enough evidence to say she didn't realize the change in Ikta's behavior.
That said, I always prefer a more assertive way of storytelling. I think tiny hints of what she was thinking, such as an eyebrow furrow, parted lips, etc, would be an improvement to just staring.
As for Yatori not giving a damn (I didn't use the word cold-hearted btw, because that's a bit stronger and generalized in terms of character), I guess we don't have anything to prove or disprove that either. Because she just stood there.
Which brings us back to my original point. Instead of having this blank slate element in Yatori's character, I thought it was a golden opportunity for her to show some personality and flesh out what she thinks of Ikta in present time.
Does that make Yatori a jerk? Of course not. But she could've been so much more than a scarecrow in that scene. Ikta almost never shows real weakness, after all.
EDIT:
Can we move on from the "stricter standards" thing? I explained the hell out of that already.
Also, it's not about shipping. It's about character development. They can stay friends forever. But even friends help each other out, or at least think about doing so, when a friend is down.
Comforting isn't limited to hugging like a baby. And I also mentioned several times now that an aborted attempt is good too. In fact, it might even be better and fits Yatori's character more. Showing Yatori with slightly wider eyes to show her realization of Ikta's abnormality, then parting her lips to say something but rethinking it and closing her mouth again, that kind of thing is enough.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 09:07 AM.
Peace.
Why don't you use your knowledge about prior episode and think about what Yatori and Ikta are thinking right now... and draw their mental image from that ?
Let me give you an example:
Yatori is forcing Ikta into this
Ikta wants to help Yatori out of this.
Ikta hates what he became.
Yatori needs him to be what he is.
Ikta is forced to make these decisions.
Yatori is responsible for him to make these decisions and she knows he does it for her.
Yatori sees the carnage in the castle, starts to realize how Ikta must feel, after all - he was giving the order to wait.
Ikta is playing though, Yatori most likely knows that too.
Ikta behavior changes, Yatori managed to understand that (she did so in the past too) just because he did something unexpected
Ikta is angry/feels sorrow because of what happened, how can Yatori, who is forcing him into this, who made him feel like this, supposed to be the girl/friend to calm him down? She might as well be ashamed of herself at this point in time.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 12:13 PM.
Of course we can easily deduce/infer/guess stuff like that, but that doesn't mean this wasn't a wasted opportunity. Character development is a task that slowly builds up, especially in critical scenes like this one.
Rather than thinking of my assertions as criticisms, it might be better to see them as suggestions for improvement. The scene, just to be clear, didn't fail. I just think it could've been better, and I have been posting really easy ways to do that.
@Your edit:
You seem to be missing a detail in my posts that I've repeated 3x or more now. An aborted attempt is good too.
All that info you mentioned is probably true, and would've been further emphasized if Yatori actually tried to comfort him but thought better of it.
Right now this:
Is purely speculation. With the addition of some detail to Yatori's reaction to Ikta's change, this speculation could've been cemented or at least given more support.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Sun, 08-28-2016 at 09:21 AM.
Peace.
It's a question of whether you want to include that detail or not. Having relatively clear relationships might be less interesting for the viewer and reader than not having them. He/they could've shown all of that, or even the attempt alone.
But they decided not to, they also decided against it in episode 2 towards the end and thought that it'd good enough for Yatori to not say anything at all and just lean on his back. This is probably the same scene in V2.0
The question is did they really decide not to? Maybe they just missed the opportunity, I don't know. My guess is that detail just wasn't in the source material, so it never made it into the anime.
Leaning on his back is a pretty big deal, both emotionally and figuratively (as symbolism in the context of the story). What we got in this episode was nowhere near that. She just literally stood there.
Peace.
Ikta didn't break here, unlike one could say Yatori did when she was slaughtering the pitiful soldiers back then. Ikta simply picked up a ribbon and let wind carry it away. Regardless of if Yatori is cold or not, she might still have been deciding whether Ikta is reflecting on stuff silently or is in need of help. He certainly didn't show too clear signs of being stricken with unbearable emotions.
On the other hand Yatori not doing, or even attempting to do, anything is also character development, if indeed it was a scene where some viewers would have expected her to do something. It's the same kind of development, just on a much, much smaller scale, as not saving someone about to be struck by truck-kun or something.
That I can understand. Intentionally keeping her expressionless to give a statement, such as how hardened she has become due to Igsem influence as she grew up, is indeed character development. I was mainly complaining if that was not the case, and the studio simply just forgot to do anything with her.
Peace.
Episode 9 - HS
- --- - - -- --
Those empire troops really aren't too good. But I guess that's what happens when veterans die and only the green ones are left. A stupid commander certainly doesn't help the situation. They should just hand over the whole command to Ikta.
I'm not quite sure why Yatori didn't slay the Sinack chieftain. Considering the tactics they are facing, they are obviously fighting against guerrilla forces, or, like the more organised side likes to call them, terrorists. There's quite little Nanaku could have done even if she had obeyed Yatori. Remembering past battles, Yatori shouldn't be one who would meaninglessly leave dangerous enemies alive like some shounen hero.
The conversation in the mess hall was... Yeah.
I believe Yatori thought of it as the quickest way for the fight to stop. Have the enemy commander order them to stand down. If she didn't then she would die along with morale. I mean she seemed to be the strongest melee fighter they had. And if she were to be bested then who could even stand up against them?
Yeah, but my problem with it is that I'd consider it more likely she couldn't have stopped her troops even if she wanted to. The enemy wasn't an army, it was paramilitary at best, and their battle formation seemed to be a bunch of independently operating teams, even if the initial attack was timed decently enough. So, the chieftain was more or less just a single (one person) team among many, with her personal task to slay the lieutenant general. However, by slaying the chieftain they might have avoided some future difficulties and lowered the enemy's morale after this particular battle.
Yeah, the only reason Yatori didn't kill that chick was because she is going to be part of the coming plot. I really hate stuff like that. Even if it was possible for the soldiers to stand down with the chick's order, killing her would've been just as beneficial. Just lop off her head and then show it off while announcing her death. That'd confuse the enemies, allowing the army to wipe them out with superior numbers. Taking them prisoner is a negative at this point. These are desperate warriors. You don't keep them around unless you have no other choice.
The Yatori fight looked good, but it didn't make sense. You can't just change horizontal force to vertical force just because you "intended" to. Yatori dodging a bullet just by knowing there's some sort of trick is also nonsense. The author is clearly more adept at politics, intrigue, and basic strategy than fighting choreography.
Peace.
That didn't bother me. Although I didn't pay attention to it, but if indeed Nanaku was exposing her back improperly, it would most certainly alert Yatori. Then she would only need to pay attention to a sort of break in the flow that would indicate for Nanaku the fight wasn't anymore a sword fight. Of course this assume Yatori isn't so stuck inside her box she could never expect anything, but I reckon her training must have also made her aware of not all opponents being perfectly pure swordsmen and women. Besides, she has spent a lot of time with Ikta full of tricks.
Yatori dodged the bullet before it was shot. As for the change in direction, well, actually you should be able to, since the girl had a point to work with, it's doubtful that she'd have the necessary strength to do it and I'm pretty sure her wrist would hurt a lot after that. It's pretty cool though.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sun, 09-04-2016 at 05:06 AM.
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