Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu

[shinta|hikari]

He TRIED a nonviolence by imprisoning him first. Subs stays locked up till Amelia finishes. Nobody gets hurt. But then he broke out, his non-violent solution failed. Now it's time to violence.

I think all of Subaru's deaths seemed to have warped your idea of what violence is. Knocking him out IS violence. Imprisoning him all tied up like a pig and blindfolded IS violence. He broke out because he was imprisoned unjustly (and meaninglessly in his POV), not knowing what they will do to him.

How the heck did you come up with "the non-violent solution has failed" from all that, I have no idea.

Ram took a fighting stance because Garfiel clearly gave an ultimatum (using that idiom) of surrender or get attacked (and clearly as we've seen, getting attacked means death).

Also, asking someone to surrender (and get imprisoned again) under the threat of violence is NOT a discussion. It's coercion. And that is not okay.

As for Subaru being suspicious, I absolutely agree. But suspicion doesn't warrant what Garfiel did. Remember, Subaru hasn't done anything harmful to them or anyone at all. They should've just questioned him more to know more, not lock him up and leave him alone without trying to learn anything.

[MFauli]

Btw I really do wonder what he did to Ram. He hadn't transformed into a beast at that point. Did he kill her? Trap in a way? I almost can't imagine Ram being held by some trap, she's the kind of girl that'd rather die than let that happen. But it'd also weird if Garf killed her. ALTHOUGH that would actually explain why at the point when he met Subaru at the end again, he was in such relentless rage: He had to kill his love interest, therefore all shackles are off, "fuck that other suspicious guy".

But again, depends on what happened to Ram.

[KrayZ33]

I feel like you already stated the solution.

He took the first trial, and came out smelling way more evil. Therefor, letting Subaru take the trials must be evil.

but he said that before he cleared the first trial as far as I remember.

It was when he went back to the mansion for the first time - and then Garf said the exact opposite in the next loop.

No witch scent involved... or at least the scent shouldn't be different? Unless it gets thicker each time he dies? Which I think is what happens if I remember the past loops? So I guess that explains his change in attitude?

Even if Subaru does the same things each loop, his scent will change and thus creatures sensitive to it will react differently? That it?

I really don't know, it already confused me when it happened 3 episodes ago and now it's even more confusing to me because the characters are A in one loop and then B in another without anyone interacting with them.

[DarthEnderX]

I think all of Subaru's deaths seemed to have warped your idea of what violence is. Knocking him out IS violence. Imprisoning him all tied up like a pig and blindfolded IS violence.

Whatever dude. It's like you've never even anime'd before. I guess Luffy and Naruto and Vash the Stampede are all violent monsters now.

Btw I really do wonder what he did to Ram. He hadn't transformed into a beast at that point. Did he kill her? Trap in a way? I almost can't imagine Ram being held by some trap, she's the kind of girl that'd rather die than let that happen. But it'd also weird if Garf killed her.

I was under the impression that, once transformed, he's basically berserk, hence all the dead villagers.

Ram was probably kicking his ass, forcing him to transform, at which point he probably killed her in a blind rage.

No witch scent involved... or at least the scent shouldn't be different? Unless it gets thicker each time he dies? Which I think is what happens if I remember the past loops? So I guess that explains his change in attitude?

That was my assumption. Either it gets worse each time, or the circumstances eof his death effect his scent.


I'm actually a little curious if each time he dies during a particular loop, his scent gets worse, and it resets every time he makes it to a new save point. Because both Rem and Garf now have killed him because of his scent on, like, his third run though a particular loop.

And I'm also curious if that means he dies too many times on one loop, if something bad happens. What's the most he's done a given loop so far? 4 times? So 3 deaths?

[shinta|hikari]

Whatever dude. It's like you've never even anime'd before.

Ah the "anime" defense.

Next time, actually defend your points instead of doing this. Pretty sure Luffy, Naruto, and Vash never knocked out and imprisoned someone and eventually killed them on an assumption, but okay.

[DarthEnderX]

Ah the "anime" defense.

Next time, actually defend your points instead of doing this.

My, should-be-obvious point dumbass, is that yeah, in the real world, knocking someone out and locking them up qualifies as violent behavior.

In an anime setting where people are brutally torn apart, blown up, disemboweled and devoured all the time, often for no reason, imprisoning someone is, by comparison, a restrained and humanitarian response.

Pretty sure Luffy, Naruto, and Vash never knocked out and imprisoned someone and eventually killed them on an assumption, but okay.

They don't eventually kill them, no. But your entire argument is that he's already a violent monster just for the beating him up and imprisoning him part.

Which, characters like Luffy punch out people all the time without even having a discussion first.

[shinta|hikari]

You conveniently skipped the "on an assumption" part, I see.

Pathetic.

[DarthEnderX]

You conveniently skipped the "on an assumption" part, I see.

Pathetic.

Alright fuckface. I'll give you a specific example.

Luffy wakes up in Whiskey Peak and finds Zoro cutting down the people that threw them a party earlier that night. Luffy assumes that Zoro is murdering these people and immediately attacks him, his own crewmate, even though Zoro is only fighting them because they were trying to assassinate them in their sleep.

So, ya know...eat shit.

[MFauli]

Was it actually ever explained WHAT sets the respawn points? Up till now, they always were set conveniently after Subaru accomplished something, like a video game. Would be nice to find that out.

[DarthEnderX]

Was it actually ever explained WHAT sets the respawn points? Up till now, they always were set conveniently after Subaru accomplished something, like a video game. Would be nice to find that out.

No explanation I remember. Like you said, they've been pretty convenient so far, except for that one where Rem was erased. But even that one checkpointed after a huge victory for him. He just didn't realize he was also suffering a defeat elsewhere.

Maybe that feeling of accomplishment is what does it. He controls it and doesn't even realize it.

[shinta|hikari]

First off, I want to clarify that I called your argument in the post preceding that pathetic, not you, so I apologize if it came across as that. I was drinking while replying that time. Calling people names helps no one.

Luffy wakes up in Whiskey Peak and finds Zoro cutting down the people that threw them a party earlier that night. Luffy assumes that Zoro is murdering these people and immediately attacks him, his own crewmate, even though Zoro is only fighting them because they were trying to assassinate them in their sleep.

Do you really not see the difference here? Luffy sees Zoro killing people who threw them a party that night, and he attacks him to stop him, and eventually the misunderstanding is resolved. Garfiel knocks out, imprisons (gagged and tied up like a pig with no chance to explain himself), and eventually kills Subaru (or at least directly drove him to death via rabbit) for smelling like something and openly admitting to being able to do something he shouldn't be able to (versus not saying anything, the better option if you are plotting something). Just to be clear, Subaru would've died in Garfiel's hands if he hadn't escaped the barrier and got rabbited, so arguing the technicalities of that is pointless.

They don't eventually kill them, no. But your entire argument is that he's already a violent monster just for the beating him up and imprisoning him part.

Don't move the goalposts. My assertion from the very start that Garfiel was evil for everything he did, not just the knocking out and imprisonment (although that is already bad in itself). You said those were non-violent methods, which is ridiculous on your part, and defended it by saying anime does it all the time. But it really doesn't. You just decided to stretch out the meaning of "on assumption" to cover any misunderstanding. So to clarify what I meant when I said that, it is being punished on assumption when he has done absolutely nothing wrong. This has always been the underlying premise of everything I said, which you can easily see if you re-read my posts.

Would I call Garfiel a monster (your word, not mine, btw) if he decided to talk it out with Subaru when he was trying to escape the village? Maybe not. I would think him a stupid, brash asshole who deserves a beating and imprisonment.

But he not only decided to forgo discussion, he murdered Otto, maybe Ram, a bunch of innocent villagers, and essentially Subaru, for no wrongdoing or reason really. That's why he is evil and should die. Some things you can't excuse by saying "he was out of control," assuming that was even the case. He could've just, I dunno, stopped fighting before going berserk? Are we going to say drunk drivers are no longer responsible for killing people because they were out of control?

To bring up another point, why would Garfiel's actions be less deplorable if it were commonplace in anime anyway? Shouldn't we just see all these actions as evil regardless? If we use commonality of an action as the basis of acceptance, then there is no longer any moral argument to be made.

That said, I still definitely think that Garfiel's actions are evil even when seen through anime moral standards. Those are the actions of a villain. Anime heroes (the characters with supposedly the moral high ground) don't do all the things he did.

[DarthEnderX]

Do you really not see the difference here?

Yes. Garfield is slightly worse. His stakes are also much higher.

eventually kills Subaru for smelling like something

You say that like he stepped in some dog doo. He emanates a magical aura of evil that, as far as we know, he's the only character with that aura that isn't evil. Possibly ever.

For all intents and purposes, they have a magical spell that detects evil, and for whatever reason, that spell keeps detecting Subaru. WE know he's not actually evil, but the spell is telling them that he is, and for them, the spell has never been wrong before.

You said those were non-violent methods, which is ridiculous on your part, and defended it by saying anime does it all the time.

Correct. I considering knocking someone out and imprisoning someone to be a non-violent alternative to simply killing them. I consider it a non-violent solution that Garfield attempted, instead of simply gutting Subaru in the forest in the first place, which he also could have done, and would have turned out much better for everyone.

Calling people names helps no one.

Oh sure, you say that after I've done it four times...

[DarthEnderX]

To bring up another point, why would Garfiel's actions be less deplorable if it were commonplace in anime anyway? Shouldn't we just see all these actions as evil regardless?

I think one should take the specifics of an anime characters own world into consideration when judging their actions.

Or are all the pirates in One Piece evil because the real world considers piracy evil?

[shinta|hikari]

Oh sure, you say that after I've done it four times...

I am not blaming you here. I just didn't want it to continue.

For all intents and purposes, they have a magical spell that detects evil, and for whatever reason, that spell keeps detecting Subaru. WE know he's not actually evil, but the spell is telling them that he is, and for them, the spell has never been wrong before.

I get all that, but like I said, they can interrogate him instead of everything they did, and that would be far more effective. Preemptive punishment is unacceptable to me.

Correct. I considering knocking someone out and imprisoning someone to be a non-violent alternative to simply killing them. I consider it a non-violent solution that Garfield attempted, instead of simply gutting Subaru in the forest in the first place, which he also could have done, and would have turned out much better for everyone.

This is where we will have to agree to disagree. I just can't see actions like that as non-violent, even in anime.

I think one should take the specifics of an anime characters own world into consideration when judging their actions.

Or are all the pirates in One Piece evil because the real world considers piracy evil?

I actually agree with this. But these anime worlds are also created with some basis on real-world morality, which is why Luffy doesn't actually steal from innocent merchant ships and kill those on board, like actual pirates in reality. In the Re:Zero world, everything Garfiel did is also considered wrong, which is why he hid it and went to great lengths to stop the lone witness from revealing his actions.

[KrayZ33]

I get all that, but like I said, they can interrogate him instead of everything they did, and that would be far more effective. Preemptive punishment is unacceptable to me.

This is where we will have to agree to disagree. I just can't see actions like that as non-violent, even in anime.

How would you interrogate someone without using violence in this case - ask him nicely and expect he will tell the truth?
And make your judgements based on the answer he gives even though you have no way of knowing if it's right or wrong? What do you even interrogate him for? What would you ask him that would put him on the spot?
You'd do that with stakes this high?

The witch cult murders whole towns. A potential criminal belonging to this organization is right in front of you and you have reason to believe he's in deep due to the smell/miasma around him...
Preemptive strikes aren't evil. They are necessary.

Unlike Subaru, all the other characters in this show don't get a second chance and I don't see the effectiveness you are talking about, honestly.

[shinta|hikari]

How about trying it first at least? There is nothing wrong with testing out non-violent methods first.

In this specific case, Subaru would've answered as best as he can, and maybe they could've gotten somewhere without all this nonsense that helped no one. Even when he was imprisoned, they could've at least tried to speak to him. He was being fed, so it's not like they wanted him gagged to prevent him from spell-casting them to death.

We know Subaru has limiters preventing him from telling the whole truth, but they don't know that. From their POV, they could've gotten to the truth (or at least some more info), had they actually tried, but chose not to.

Remember, potential criminals are still NOT criminals. Suspicion is not the same as guilt. The first step in any investigation is to find out the facts, which they all skipped and just proceeded with the punishment based on assumption of guilt. This is unacceptable.

In fact, if you have such a possibly dangerous entity in front of you, it becomes even more important to find out what he is plotting. Just imprisoning him without interrogation is just pointless. Too add, interrogation without using violence actually works even in real life.

It is honestly a bit scary how people defend preemptive strikes. Just because the stakes are high doesn't mean you can forgo morality. And if you think you can/should, let's just agree to disagree.

[KrayZ33]

In fact, if you have such a possibly dangerous entity in front of you, it becomes even more important to find out what he is plotting. Just imprisoning him without interrogation is just pointless. Too add, interrogation without using violence actually works even in real life.

It is honestly a bit scary how people defend preemptive strikes. Just because the stakes are high doesn't mean you can forgo morality. And if you think you can/should, let's just agree to disagree.

lol?
How is that pointless, you completely take him out of the equation, he is no potential threat anymore
Or would you have prefered it if they went to killing directly?

And how does it matter if Subaru answers truthfully or not?
Why would Garf believe him?


And most importantly, you fail to understand that they actually did talk to him and came to the conclusion that he is a threat. They acted on what they found out so far. The talk after the trial still happens in every loop - we just don't really know how Subaru plays it out (which I find bothersome)
Not only that, we don't actually know their motivation either.

He was being fed, so it's not like they wanted him gagged to prevent him from spell-casting them to death.

they gagged him so he couldn't kill himself

Remember, potential criminals are still NOT criminals. Suspicion is not the same as guilt. The first step in any investigation is to find out the facts, which they all skipped and just proceeded with the punishment based on assumption of guilt. This is unacceptable.

punishment?
You mean remand in custody? (I believe that's the word in english)
Basically, you put someone in custody even though he is not guilty yet.

[shinta|hikari]

They take him out of the equation, without knowing what the equation was? Assuming he was an evil cultist (which they don't even know), what if he already set a trap? What if he had allies incoming? What if he is mind controlling Ram and Emilia with some strange power? They basically know nothing and decided to not find out anything more.

They spoke to him for a few sentences and judged him based on that. The moment they felt he was a danger, they should've tried to find out more. At the very least, they should've interrogated him when he was imprisoned. It would not be ideal, but I would at least understand that.

In any interrogation, you can't readily tell if the person is telling the truth or not. Do we just stop doing them even in the real world? Of course not. You get info from the person, keep questioning to see if the story is consistent, cross check the info with other people, gather evidence to corroborate, etc. This is basic investigation. They decided not to investigate and just imprison him. That is not the just nor moral path to take.

[DarthEnderX]

In any interrogation, you can't readily tell if the person is telling the truth or not. Do we just stop doing them even in the real world? Of course not. You get info from the person, keep questioning to see if the story is consistent, cross check the info with other people, gather evidence to corroborate, etc. This is basic investigation.

You're asking for a Law & Order investigation from a mall cop.

Garfield isn't smart enough to do ANY of that, and he probably knows it. This guy smells like crime. He'll lock him up until the smart people aren't busy with more important things.

Assuming he was an evil cultist (which they don't even know)

When everyone else that smells like the Witch is either a cultist or a mabeast, as far as their concerned, they do know.

[shinta|hikari]

You're asking for a Law & Order investigation from a mall cop.

Garfield isn't smart enough to do ANY of that, and he probably knows it. This guy smells like crime. He'll lock him up until the smart people aren't busy with more important things.

I agree. But what about the lady who spoke to Subaru and (not sure if the same person) fed him? There are other people that can do that. They had 3 days to ask him even one question, but no one tried.

Also, incapability to do the right and optimal thing doesn't mean you are excused to do the wrong thing. Wrong things are wrong, even if doing the right thing is hard.

When everyone else that smells like the Witch is either a cultist or a mabeast, as far as their concerned, they do know.

Which is prejudice. I understand where they are coming from, and approaching Subaru with caution is warranted, but assuming the worst without properly questioning will net them nothing. They could always strong arm him after they explained why he was suspicious and given him a chance to explain himself.