Hai to Gensou no Grimgar

[shinta|hikari]

We're just kidding around.

[KrayZ33]

@Krayz - It doesn't help your point about musical scenes when the series you bring up is Naruto.

I'm actually okay with musical scenes if they are done for a reason, not including padding of course. Those scenes are ideally added to modify pacing. When things are going too fast, you add them to tone things down. When things are going slow, you add them to cram a lot of content in a minute or so of no-dialog music.

Grimgar, an already slow show, used them to... well... do nothing much. You can literally take them all out and the show wouldn't be any worse. Well, except for the first one because we knew nothing about the characters back then, so any info was welcome.

Also take note that this show was made to air weekly. While I agree with you that watching it in one go would alleviate the slowness, that doesn't make it okay for it to feel really slow in the airing schedule it was originally created for. In short, while it isn't a deal breaker, the criticism is valid.

I just brought up Naruto because I don't understand how Grimgar is any different than other shows in that regard
And I'd actually say the show would get worse without them. I'm trying to understand what you dislike about them, they don't really make the show "slower" either. The statement that these scenes didn't do anything is objectively false.

Let's take a look if we are actually talking about the same scenes:

Ep2 for example after they killed their first goblin:
Haru walks around in town, it shows us how things work, if you refuse to earn money, you'll end on the streets as failed soldiers, probably starving to death. Ranta is clearly shaken from what he did, he can finally eat though, the girls can finally spend money and Manato is finally able to relax as a party-leader, because they earned money for the first time. It also tells us something about how each member is able to cope with the situation. And they didn't have to use a single line of Voice acting for this and since they showed us so many different angles, how would you put that in a scene without music that is both "beautiful" to look at and make sense. I think it's a bit unfair, maybe even a bit deriding when people expect so little of Anime directors/writers/authors that they assume that these scenes don't tell a story on their own and/or is pure coincidence. (Not only talking about Grimgar, and I'm not saying you do that - I don't know)
I'm well aware that shit-tier animes exist where this stuff makes no sense at all, but it seemed rather obvious to me that this show actually utilized them very well and the staff actually knew what they were doing.

As for the pace:
I think "slow" might even be the wrong word in the first place. They didn't progress as much in terms of solving mysteries, which means that the "plot" doesn't really advance, which is why I brought up the "goblin hunting for 4 weeks"-part, but it's not like nothing important happened in these 4 episodes. People might expect the "level up!" part to come with every week, but it really was more of a coming-of-age story where the "level up" meant that the characters themselve grew up and started to see things differently.
Take Haru's character progression as an example and then take a look at how the anime ended and what was said when he visited Manato's grave once more...and I'm not talking about the part *after* Manato's ghost disappeared all of a sudden. The words and dialogue itself have been carefully chosen imo.

[shinta|hikari]

A lot of people, not only me, felt that Grimgar was slow while it was airing. And I actually enjoy SoL shows.

What makes Grimgar different from other shows in terms of the musical scenes is the density. Other shows have what, 1 or 2 in an entire cour. Grimgar had double that.

The musical scenes are unnecessary because most of them don't give any new content. They just emphasize or reiterate what we already know. For example, Manato is dead. Yeah it's tragic. Then we get a minute or more of musical moping after that.

It's not only the musical scenes. There are a lot of "nothing happening with no dialog panning shots" in the series. The biggest culprit being the snow scene with Haru and Mary. They stretched that scene out to 5x the length it should be.

I'd caution against using the word objectively false. A lot of nonsense has been justified by that. What is objectively true is that all our posts are opinions of a certain aspect of this show, making them subjective.

I personally value concise and effective delivery over "artful" renditions, and I honestly believe the reason we had so many lull moments in the series is because the best stopping point was the 2nd volume. That meant they had 12 episodes to use up for 2 volumes of content. That requires a bit of stretching.

EDIT:
I read around online and saw that the opinions are split in half about the pace and musical scenes. I guess people, like the two of us, simply have different preferences in pacing and delivery.

[KrayZ33]

First of all, I'm not trying to sound defensive here: (I want to discuss this solely for the sake and enjoyment of discussing things)

The musical scenes are unnecessary because most of them don't give any new content. They just emphasize or reiterate what we already know. For example, Manato is dead. Yeah it's tragic. Then we get a minute or more of musical moping after that.

But it's because it's more than just "Manato is dead - yeah it's tragic" that they used the music in the first place. Manato was literally declared dead ~0,5-1 minute before that and that rather short musical scene showed us the funeral. I don't understand what's the big dealbreaker here? Isn't that the 1x1 of making movies or TV shows? You use music, sound, the camera etc. to make things more tragic, to appeal to the audience and enhance the effect.
Same thing when they gave him his badge - in fact that scene in particular was nothing but the ED of that episode in general and that's really a rather common thing to do, right? (and for a reason)

[MFauli]

All I remember is that the music scenes felt like padding, as if they didn´t have enough content (which was ridiculous, considering the snail pacing) and had to fill up 2-3 minutes to make a complete episode.

[shinta|hikari]

When did I ever say it's a deal breaker? I even specifically mentioned that it's not a deal breaker.

Didn't you mind the odd slowness at times? And the never ending musical scenes? It's not a deal breaker or anything, but it was a really odd direction choice.

My main gripe is they overdid it. Shorter and less musical scenes would've made it jump out as an issue way less.

@Mfauli -
About the content, I can't really blame them. Fitting 3 volumes would've made the pace a little too fast and it would end the cour in an unsatisfying note.

[KrayZ33]

When did I ever say it's a deal breaker? I even specifically mentioned that it's not a deal breaker.

I used the word dealbreaker not in a sense of you disliking the show because of it, but rather as to why you believe that scene was unnecessary and would've been better if they did it somehow differently.
Like.. you/they actually use this kind of scene in that situation and it's not because it's Grimgar and "slow".

as you said yourself

...but it was a really odd direction choice

It's defacto not an odd choice but very commonly used, which is also why I said "objectively false" earlier. They are used for a reason and they didn't "abuse" it or use it wrongly. Hmpf, how can I say this.. it's like you can show this to a teacher as reference material when you talk about "how is X used in movies to improve "blah blah".." and find textbook examples in these scenes.

As you said

I personally value concise and effective delivery over "artful" renditions

It was actually a common use of art. Very basic too and I like it that there are shows in the Anime genre that can make use of that. I wouldn't call it "ineffective" either because from their perspective, these scenes are most likely cheaper to produce than the same amount of time in animated conversation and interaction for pretty much the same effect. It's a matter of how much you are willing to "dive" into the story/situation though.
These scenes are pretty much a playing field for me, I like to think about what the author/director wanted to do and what I can get out of these scenes, I watch them 2 times too, 1 more time right after the episode ended. The reason why I actually liked these scenes is because the director/author (I don't know who it actually is who decides these things in adaptations) really managed to tell something and use "art".

I'm always like "yaaay, someone who actually put thought into it and wants the viewer to think and focus about what he's seeing, no inner monologue that "spoils" his exact thoughts, imagine them yourself!" (or something like that) whenever I see well done presentations like these.

edit:
It's the same with Manato's appearences as a ghost (as I mentioned earlier already).. the idea itself is very common isn't it? But the conversations.. or what the ghost is doing is always so obvious and cliché (like a glowing hand tries to reach MC to guide the lost lamb to defeat his enemy). Here it was a portrayal of Haru's mind and that alone tells me so much about Haru's current mental state, yet the scene itself never really *states* it that way. I'm so happy, just from talking about it and the way it's shown and written...it's impossible to be a coincidence, yay.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm more of a science guy, even when it comes to art. Tried and tested techniques have standard ways of execution. Musical scenes aren't supposed to be that long or numerous or densely packed in a standard anime show, much less one with many not-so-riveting moments. That's basically what my gripe boils down to.

Cut the number and length of those scenes in half and I think this show would've been much better, especially in terms of pacing. The problem is, doing that would mean they wouldn't hit the 12 episode mark, and they can't include the 3rd volume for reasons I've stated. So it was an inevitable problem.

I do believe it's also a mindset issue. I tend to always have my critic hat on whenever I watch anything. Instead of focusing on enjoyment and immersion, half my brain is already dissecting the story/execution/logical consistency of anything I see. I'm the guy who people don't want to watch movies with. I think you've accused me of this several times in the past, and you're right.

[KrayZ33]

well, I didn't want to start a fight or anything you just happened to ask whether these scenes bothered me or not and I tried to give reason as to why I like them (even though I'm fully aware no one has to explain why he likes/dislikes someone, but it's always interesting to hear their reasoning)

As for the 12 episode mark, I really doubt that these ~10 minutes had anything to do about that. It's just ~10 minutes after all (of which most actually showed characters doing something that could've been done without music and with dialogue), not 40+

And I believe that musical scenes are actually found in "slower" shows more often than action ones. It's true that Grimgar certainly had more than a standard one though. I think (and I also believe we agree on at least that, because you mentioned something similar yourself) that each of them however, was well done. I didn't mind to see 4 of those, I probably wouldn't have a problem with having 6 or 8 or one in every episode (if the quality remains and depending on how long they are, not every musical scene was equally long after all). I guess we can at least acknowledge the scenes on their own imho.

They didn't feel as generic too, the musical part in episode 9, where they showed Yume climbing a cliff and Ranta chilling on a boat watching her, felt a bit like the cuts they do in documentaries... you know - they play music while they show streets, the town, the surroundings and you get a feel of how large the scene is and how it looks like around there. I really liked that for example - the backgrounds were really pretty too.. watercolor-ish

[shinta|hikari]

10 minutes (and is it really just 10? Wasn't the very first one showing the town and the team like 6 minutes long?) placed strategically in certain episodes can affect the length of an entire cour. Add to that the no-dialog no-action scenes (or more accurately, panning images), and you can easily squeeze out 1 or 2 episodes more from the content. The musical scenes were obviously not in the source material, so it's added there for a reason. We sort of disagree in the reason for it.

While making anime is arguably art, it's also a business, and I can't help but look at it from that standpoint. With the knowledge that I have of the LN situation and the usual episode to volume ratio, I'm almost forced to make the link. The industry standard is 12 episodes per cour, but the content didn't fit that mold, so they adjusted. It's no big sin, but it's also far from the ideal creative canvass.

Well placed musical scenes (and any artistic choice, really) lend to the overall polish of a show, but I think they overdid it here. It's like how the monogatari series is now just a glorified slide show because of how repetitive the style has become due to the story's length.

Now before you say I'm being too harsh a judge despite not being an artist/creator myself, I actually do write and draw as a hobby. Fitting a story into certain word counts, balancing chapter content for entertainment value and information, as well as knowing what is visually pleasing/impressive is something I actually worked hard at.

I know very well how hard the creative process is, but I still think criticism, especially constructive ones like mine (because I actually give possible ways to improve it) is necessary. I'm not just saying random stuff for no reason, much less to hate on things.

[KrayZ33]

To answer the question about the length:
I think we are on the same page as to what is considered a musical scene, basicaly those where they didn't talk and the scene went from place A to place B and then C and so on, or when they just stand there and stare at the grave, basically everything else is just BGM during a conversation, right?

The first one in Episode 2 was 4+- minutes, though it certainly had some story elements in it.
It was placed right after their first goblin kill

(There is a scene with lyrical music in episode 3 too, where they are actually hunting and Haru explains some stuff like skills though, I don't really consider that a part of what we are discussing here though. They also talk a lot during that so it's more like a "fast forward" button scene?)

The next one is Episode 4 after Manato died - it's 2 minutes long, they are at the church, they cry a lot and then proceed with the funeral and stay there for a while

(There is another scene in Episode 7 that last about a minute where they bath/talk with each other and keeps going for another 5 minutes, these 5 minutes however are action packed and I actually consider it as another "fast forward" button scene... I'm not trying to downplay it, but that's really what it is. They are killing goblins left and right and loot the shit out of them. Haru keeps explaining the new skills they bought and all that)

Then in Episode 8, they give Manato his badge, they pretty much stand there and do nothing for ~1:30 and the following scene is rather slow to fit the music, so I'd add another 30 seconds even though it's basically talking and "romance time".


In Episode 9 there is the scene which I mentioned earlier, it's about 3-4 minutes long with some Haru x Mary time in between.


So yeah... ~10-12 minutes, half a episode basically. Quite a few of these scenes could've been voiced most of the time, if you really want to hear "I'm feeling sad because of X" or "I'm happy now" out of their mouth that is. The first 4+- minutes I mentioned where basically ~90% story telling if you ask me

These 12 minutes however are still about 3x more than most other shows have, but to go as far as saying they were done so they could go with 12 episodes... I don't know. I actually don't know how reserving TV spots or that business in general works, but I'm pretty sure it would've been easier to do 10/11 and fill the one week that's left with something else.

[shinta|hikari]

It's not about voicing it out. It's about the length and frequency. I can confidently say I can edit those scenes to less than half their length without losing any impact.

2 minutes sounds pretty standard for scenes like this. 4 to 5 is just too much.

And I've said this three times already, but the musical scenes are just part of the problem. There are a lot of panning images and blank scenes littered everywhere. Some scenes are just plain repetitive, like the ones in the bar with rehashed dialogues. These are all really minor things on their own, but added together, they start to make some episodes feel a lot less dense in terms of content, and that's because they are actually less dense.

[KrayZ33]

Well, yeah that's 100% true.

Their goal was to make it calm and to be in contrast to what they do and experience while they hunt after all. And *I* can confidently say you can't edit these scenes and have the same result... but neither you nor I can proof it, it also depends so much on the person who's watching it.

Not even once did I feel the urge to skip a second of this show and I never felt as if these scenes were boring. I actually appreciate the time because you start to focus on things that aren't said, but shown and it sets you in a different mood.

The further you calmed "down", the more you tense "up" whenever something happens. (ep4 12:00 for example)
It's "flying witch" with drama and action (the only show that came to my mind right now). Taking away the "flying witch parts" would make it something different.

[shinta|hikari]

I'm not talking about the flying witch parts. I'm talking about the blank parts dragging on for a few seconds too long each time. Believe me, there are many ways to adjust this show to a shorter length and it'll be better. You won't, but I just wanted to state it. Heck, I bet even the creators themselves can make it be better if you take away the 12 episode and budget restraints. There is always room for improvement.

Best example.

Start at 18:15 and watch til the end. Tell me you don't think some of the aimless walking couldn't be clipped or shortened. We even get different angles of the same place, for some reason. Then we get 5 seconds of snow footprints. Why not 2? Why not 3? We get it. They're walking calmly on the snow, enjoying each other's company. We don't need 5 seconds of footprints to tell us that.

Then we get the same shots of the same place earlier, only this time, with Haru and Mary walking in it. Then what was the point of showing them earlier..? The music actually had to be looped to fit the stretched out scene, so it isn't like their trying to match the music (which can be edited shorter anyway).

Then more still images of places lasting for 3-5 seconds each while the bell tolls. Places we've already seen. But they have different angles now, yey.

Haru takes a breath and returns Mary's farewell. For 20 seconds! He actually says "yeah" twice! Okay, I understand he's thinking of something during that time. But making someone wait 20 seconds before returning their greeting is just unnatural. So is saying "yeah" twice but whatever. I'm not saying they should cut this out, but 10 seconds is enough for it. With one "yeah."

Then more walking and standing on snow. No wait, now we have a blank sky with small flakes of snow to end it, perfectly symbolizing a scene with so much nothingness and bits of content scattered in it.

You see, none of these are noticeable problems by themselves. But all together, you suddenly get 2 minutes of extra episode time with no actual plot or character content.

So yeah, I can confidently cut this entire scene in half and make it better.

Don't get me wrong. I love the dialog and subtle expression changes (including how Haru constantly looks away from the beautiful Mary) in this scene. But the blank parts were way too long for no reason. The conversation itself is slow paced, which is fine (nice actually). But you don't need to make everything else slow too. It loses balance.

[MFauli]

Now that shinta describes it in such detail, I remember often thinking: "ok, nice music scene ... oh, now that episode is over?!" Because I always expected at least some sort of cliffhanger revelation at the end of the music scene. Instead, we got those story-less music scenes, and they kept going, and going, and going ... and then the episode was over and it felt like I had just wasted several minutes.

[KrayZ33]

Cutting away half of the time wouldn't have the same effect...
That's really silly to assume.

You don't even realise that turning a 5 second cut into a 2 second cut will speed up the scene...

This

Then we get the same shots of the same place earlier, only this time, with Haru and Mary walking in it. Then what was the point of showing them earlier..? The music actually had to be looped to fit the stretched out scene, so it isn't like their trying to match the music (which can be edited shorter anyway).

Isn't true either. The bridge for example is where Manato watches the sunset, basically his special place, where they as a group used to watch sunsets and later where they'll watch the sun rise, while Haru and Mary are at the town entrance.
The place with the wooden frame is where Manato sat down after their first kill, all in all, it's scenery we've seen in a "spring" theme. (from a different angle)

Doesn't really matter a whole lot, the important part here is for example, the snowy landscape (that started to appear after they said farewell) and what it means in japanese culture.

[shinta|hikari]

So you seriously didn't find that specific scene, putting aside everything else now, slow?

And I do realize that it'll speed up a scene if I cut a 5 second clip to 2... That's the entire point. What have you been smoking lol. I said I'll make it better, not make it the same.

[KrayZ33]

What makes you think it's "better", it's not, you don't want that scene to be fast(er).
No, it's not slow, it's fitting. You might be able to cut a second here but it won't add to anything significant... the point is that they didn't waste the screentime and the "extra" second is actually doing something too. Showing the same scene 5 seconds or 10 seconds makes a difference, even if it's just a single frame.

Action scenes are fast, scenes that are supposed to show sorrow and sadness have to be slow, it's nearly impossible to be "too" slow during these scenes. Especially if they do not even last ~3 minutes.

What I'd consider slow would be the scenes in between these major-plot points
For example when they just eat, chill and talk... but even that is important for this show. Since it's not just action shounen but all about their interpersonal relationship... and about Haru's (and everyone else's) journey into adulthood.

[shinta|hikari]

I agree with the first part, but not the second. There is always a "too much" in anything, and this was it. That snow scene was waaaay over padded. If you think half is too much to cut away, what about a third? A fourth? Anything is better than what we got. It's not about making it fast. It's about changing to something more fitting from that painstakingly slow conclusion to an episode.

Like, how do you justify the 20 second Haru double "yeah" part? It... doesn't make sense. He literally just stops moving for half of it. People don't do that after someone bids them farewell.

Part of this probably comes from the fact that you watched the episodes back to back. Like Mfauli, I found that a really odd way to end an episode. It just simply dragged into nothingness. Then it ends. If you watch the next episode right after, I'm sure you won't feel nearly as dissatisfied.

[KrayZ33]

You are asking me questions that are impossible to answer.. I don't know whether I'd like a shorter pause better than what we have right now, probably not. The director might've have rewatched that scene a hundred times himself and decided it's better to have him breath and wait one more second, or have them walk together 3 seconds longer.

You are also ignoring what is actually happening there.

Haru's wanted to say something but got interrupted by the bell, then Mary decided to end the conversation there. Haru accepted it with a "..yeah". Thought about it again for a second and decided it's probably for the better to end it here for today, he took a deep breath, swallowed it and wanted to end the conversation on a less dramatic and more friendly note. He already pushed her somewhat, close to tears even, which is shown by her voice.

"See you tomorrow" implies that they can actually talk about it at a later time.
And I'll use the same sentence now
I'm off for today, see ya, will respond later if anything comes up.