Heavy Object

[MasterOfMoogles]

It's the future. They have even more satellites and other support than we have today. In this episode, we even see the commander telling an Object on the other side of the world to blow stuff up with her tablet. It isn't like they just send these things out by themselves, that would be stupid.

I did read your post. You're basically proposing you take an Object and remove all of the armor and extra guns. It's still big enough to be seen by satellite or drones, and can't easily defend itself from planes since you just have the main cannon. The opposing Object could just blow it up from miles away as soon as it is found.
You can't really "distract" an Object. Anything but another Object is basically worthless.

[Buffalobiian]

Kraco's point is that that's not true. Objects aren't the only effective means against another object - the guns on them are. So why don't we do without the Object thing, mount those guns elsewhere - and fire?

That's the biggest blooper in their whole setup IMO. The only way to say "Objects are the only means to fight against other Objects" is for them to have AT fields that negate each other in proximity or something.

edit: oh, the opening bit also said that nukes melt half the thing. So let's use two.

[MasterOfMoogles]

The guns are still pretty freaking big. In addition, they need to be powered by the same thing that powers the Objects to have enough power to destroy another Object.
Wouldn't you rather have your huge gun and nuclear reactor protected by armor, mobile, and have 100 other guns/lasers instead of being a sitting duck for a bombing run?

Basically I'm saying the idea that you can mount it on a car or truck or something is not feasible. It would probably need to be at least battleship sized, if not larger.

And sure, you can nuke the Earth and then everybody's dead. That would work. Nobody wants to just nuke, nuke, nuke, though. Especially if the thing is on your own territory.

[KrayZ33]

Dunno, this discussion is kinda unfair...

We are basically discussing the pros and cons about a thing that's impossible to build in the first place and enjoys "plot armor" more than anything else.
This thing wouldn't survive a nuclear bomb, the anime just says it does (especially with laser guns still active, yeah right), which means nuclear deterrence should still be active after all and invasions less likely.
In fact there is no reason as to why they don't actually nuke each other in the first place. Just because you can't (for no reason) kill the Object doesn't mean you can't nuke the shit out of everything else.

So that means, in the end, this anime says that nuclear bombs were useless from the start because no one is actually willing to fire them.
This thing has anti-air (lol!) in the size of a battletanks mounted on it which of all things, shoots lasers that somehow only exist on the Objects?
Don't know, the whole concept and world building is really lacking.
Guess you have to accept that before watching it.

[Kraco]

Those weapons ought to fit in a truck, the power source in another. That would be even safer, since if the weapon happened to be destroyed, you could still potentially save the power source (which could be much smaller than an object's power source since it wouldn't need to move thousands of tons of armour and power multiple weapons). I'm sure the enemy would find it hilarious to destroy all the trucks of the country they are attempting to subdue. Destroy with something since their own object would already be destroyed and any conventional vehicles of war could be fought against using conventional means. Satellites and command centers are nothing special. We have those today as well, and they are useful but only in a limited fashion as we have seen in multitude of wars so far. However, you could never hide on object on the move from them, that's for sure, so any enemy will know where your objects are.

Bill did mention the only thing that would make them non-ridiculous: Some kind of an AT field. They didn't have one, though.

[Ryllharu]

I don't recall seeing any of them shoot anything beyond visual range. That's the bigger problem here.

Battleships in WWII could fire from beyond visual range (well, the Japanese ones couldn't because they couldn't hit anything moving even if they could see it). Evangelion handled it nicely, even having to account for the particle beam getting warped by the curvature of the Earth and whatever else they said.

Objects use line of sight particle beams or giant artillery that still only hits things they can see. Maybe there are more models that have different weapon systems, some that might even be actually up to 1950s standards. You don't need armor if your enemy no longer knows where you are once you've fired on them because you moved right away.

[MasterOfMoogles]

I don't think you can fit a 50m gun into a truck.
Or a nuclear reactor...

Kray, the reason they don't nuke each other is the same reason countries don't nuke each other in the real world - it's a horrible idea for everyone involved.

Objects use line of sight particle beams or giant artillery that still only hits things they can see. Maybe there are more models that have different weapon systems, some that might even be actually up to 1950s standards. You don't need armor if your enemy no longer knows where you are once you've fired on them because you moved right away.

They have literally hundreds of guns. You seriously don't think they have long range ballistics?

You also can't really hide tanks or larger with the amount of battlefield surveillance that goes on.

[KrayZ33]

I don't think you can fit a 50m gun into a truck.

The whole object is 50m big/tall, not the gun. Seeing how it is a ball it's obviously 50m tall and wide.
And we saw in the ending that you don't need the huge sideguns to penetrate the objects armor.

Seems like some sort of rail/gauss cannons are enough, which makes sense because apparently, Objects are made of "Glorious Nippon Steel Folded Over 1000 Times" as seen in the first minute. Layer after layer instead of a huge shell, which means penetration is far more effective than explosion.

Kray, the reason they don't nuke each other is the same reason countries don't nuke each other in the real world - it's a horrible idea for everyone involved.

And maybe even the reason why open war between nuclear nation doesn't exist. That's what the stability–instability paradox is all about. Which is obviously not the case here.

edit: wth we even saw someone launching a nuke already. So it's not even like they have problems doing so.

[Ryllharu]

They have literally hundreds of guns. You seriously don't think they have long range ballistics?

You also can't really hide tanks or larger with the amount of battlefield surveillance that goes on.

I can only discuss what the series has shown us. All we've seen is line of sight. As a LN reader, you can talk about all the "hypotheticals" you want, but all we've seen is a massive weapon with mostly fixed turrets firing at line of sight targets. Also, laser and particle beam (which was most of the weapons shown) are only ever going to be line of sight.

I gave the concession that other models might have missiles or something, or use their artillery correctly in a Time on Target/MRSI attack, but we didn't see any of it, which is stupid because there's only one operator in the damn thing, some of this should be automated.

The first fight we see is over the ocean. The ocean is big. To the point that a human can't appreciate how big unless they've been on it. Things operate under the surface. The horizon is everywhere.

[MasterOfMoogles]

Going by the wiki for this, Baby Magnum is 75m with main guns expanded. So I guess it's guns are maybe 25m? Maybe they're 12.5m wide and maybe 20-25m long.
The one it is fighting is 140m with main guns expanded (though most of that is the legs). This one, it looks like the main cannon is mounted through the core of it, so it is pretty hard to tell how large they are.

And you still need the huge power source. And you need ammunition, depending on the type of gun, or crazy cooling systems.

The show will be a lot more fun if you just let it have its main conceit and don't nitpick the details. You should assume that the reason people aren't running around with Object destroying guns is because it is just not feasible or they tried it and it didn't work.

[Kraco]

And you still need the huge power source. And you need ammunition, depending on the type of gun, or crazy cooling systems.

No, you don't. The objects probably (we haven't seen it) need a huge power source because they are huge and heavy beyond imagination. The energy goes into moving their own bulk. Weapons don't need so much power unless they fire continuously or very rapidly. Otherwise weapons only use power for a microsecond. They can charge that power for a good while and then release it all at once. For the kind of approach I've been preaching here, it's like Ryll said: You fire once and then you want to move elsewhere, lest you get destroyed in retaliation (by a different opponent since the one you targeted ought to be dead). If you need more shots than one, just a couple of guns. It would be better anyway.

[shinta|hikari]

The problem with this discussion is that this is just the first episode. You can't call MoM out for LN reading if everyone else is speculating based on cuts on one episode, where Objects don't even really fight.

It's really weird how people punish this show for realism when Gundam doesn't get the same treatment. A single tiny flying mech melting down huge spaceships and stopping meteorites is somehow more believable. That just seems unfair.

Their excuse is basically the same. The story happens in the future where amazing technological innovations made all this possible.

What I find really poorly done in this episode was all the info-dumping. They crammed all the info about objects in the intro, the conversations, in every single line, in fact. That's just amateurish.

[Kraco]

It's really weird how people punish this show for realism when Gundam doesn't get the same treatment. A single tiny flying mech melting down huge spaceships and stopping meteorites is somehow more believable. That just seems unfair.

Been there, done that. But I stopped because it's no fun to keep complaining about mecha year after year. Honestly, though, after a single episode this random show has got over thirty posts. Quite an achievement considering how dead this forum is.

[shinta|hikari]

And people are missing the point of the first episode.

Blond expressionless semi-loli with boobs. Her entire existence seems to be screaming "Give me a hug," at least to me. Stop getting distracted by giant metal guns and focus on more important things.

[Ryllharu]

It's really weird how people punish this show for realism when Gundam doesn't get the same treatment. A single tiny flying mech melting down huge spaceships and stopping meteorites is somehow more believable. That just seems unfair.

It would be less of a problem if the series hadn't spent so much time on the technical aspects of the Objects and why they are superior. Info-dump all sorts of technical construction information, have the male lead be a maintenance tech, and somehow we're supposed to ignore all the incredible problems and clear oversights the author made because he knows shit about military hardware, tactics, or operational use?

We're expected to simply accept the conceit that these are superior when they clearly aren't? Gloss over all the actual technical aspects and assume all the mumbo-jumbo Star Trek bullshit is true?

You can't pretend to be a technical show and then simultaneously request that everything you get horrifically wrong is not important.

Gundam and similar established mecha franchises stand up because they are diligent about their technical info. They know there are legions of otaku that will rake them over the coals if they screw up. These are the people that complain that a model kit isn't accurately represented to scale.

Look at Gundam Build Fighters. The details are there. They know about them, and care. This show doesn't give a shit what it gets right or wrong while still trying to wow readers and viewers with technical information.

Stop getting distracted by giant metal guns and focus on more important things.

By dropping this series at the first episode and watching something, anything else? Absolutely.

[shinta|hikari]

By dropping this series at the first episode and watching something, anything else? Absolutely.

Thank you.

[Ryllharu]

If you're gonna be like that, I might watch it only so I can shit on it each week.

Just stop pretending this is good. It's clearly not, and most here or otherwise appear to agree.

[shinta|hikari]

Sigh, I knew you were gonna say that.

And to be precise, I actually don't like this series. I don't think Kamachi's writing is good in general. I only like the semi-loli. I only spoke up because I don't like this:

watch it only so I can shit on it each week.

[Ryllharu]

Then don't ignore or dismiss legitimate criticisms.

LN fans are notorious for it.

[shinta|hikari]

Huh? Where did that come from?

The criticisms were discussed. I don't get where you are getting this ignore and dismiss part. Unless you want to repeat stuff that's already been said before again.

All I'm saying is that I don't want any thread to devolve into "watch it only so I can shit on it each week" thing. There is nothing legitimate or meaningful about that. And it looked to be headed in that direction, as we've seen in the SAO and Mahouka threads.