Which is why they should've jumped on her the moment she started trying to puke. They had a good 10 seconds or more to do so. Shooting her in the leg with his rocket knife also works.Originally Posted by MasterOfMoogles
Sure, there's a risk, but not as big as letting Chamot do whatever she wanted as they watched. Taking the initiative is basic in combat.
That scene reminded me of Disgaea and how Etna pawned a member of a sentai group before he transformed.
Peace.
You'll never talk Chamot down after you injure Chamot, though. I'm sure Adlet could have also lobbed a grenade on top of Chamot, but that is not the goal at all.
Why do you even think they can talk Chamot down, especially without Maura? The brat is nuts. Just knock her out and be done with it.
Peace.
Oh dear.
It means so much more when you say it.
I don't think knocking someone out can be reliably done by an assassin and a boy trained to kill fiends. You need fists, blunt weapons and shit..
And if Chamot's fiends are fiends she's eaten, I don't think you want to get close to her.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
The fiends that wouldn't have come out if they beat her unconscious while she was tickling her throat?
EDIT: Oh you meant she might eat them? They didn't even know about the fiends at that point.
Your logic about an assassin and the strongest man on earth, who can fight on level ground with an assassin, not being able to knock a person out makes no sense. Knocking people out isn't rocket science. A good punch or a proper sleeper hold (which also prevents her from vomiting minions!) would work.
You guys are providing reasons why they shouldn't knock her out. But stop and think about the reasons why they should've knocked her out/beaten her up/injured her/stopped her somehow. A preemptive strike would've ended the fight already, saving them the trouble and danger they are in now.
But then again, there wouldn't be a fight in the next episode.
They could've easily fixed this oddness by giving Chamo some sort of defense while she is busy summoning creeps, like a barrier, a flash grenade, an invisible fiend guard she always drags around, anything.
That scene was a typical summon/power up/ transformation scene that no one interrupts for the sake of plot.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 08-26-2015 at 12:23 AM.
Peace.
1. They didn't know she was just going to vomit for a few seconds
2. Once she started there was a pile of goo that they didn't know anything about surrounding her
3. I have reason to believe all of their projectile weapons (the only thing that would reach her now if they decided to attack) were bladed and lethal. The only way to "knock" her out would be to induce blood loss.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Adlet is an idiot, which explains why he would just stand still and stare while an enemy takes all the time in the world to get ready to fight. Hans, however, is another matter. After Adlet had thrown away all of his gear, Hans hesitated for a long while. I reckon he's the kind of person who expects everybody to be able to pull off amazing moves like he does himself. His assassinations probably are assassinations in their true form: Killing the target before the target knows to expect anything. Of Chamot they only knew the brat is supposedly super strong, yet they hadn't a clue what sort of a power she has. Based on Hans's behavior against Adlet, he wouldn't attack recklessly under such circumstances.
It's also possible Hans didn't want to get hit by vomit. I know I wouldn't.
You're seriously telling me that you're going to run through this unknown pile of liquid someone is vomiting to put them in a sleeper hold while they're spewing gallons of potentially super-powered acid?
That's just ridiculous.
The first reaction when she started vomiting should have been "RUN!!!", but perhaps the shock and curiosity about her power could keep someone watching a bit longer. Up until she started vomiting, they were trying to reason with her.
What happened makes way more sense than any kind of rash retaliation.
They both know Chamot's reputation.
No one screws with her, no one beats her. They already related the story how she won some tournament when she was even younger in a bloody mess. Flamie fled from her moments after their own confrontation began.
They should have run full force, but they are trying to convince her. The shock of seeing her vomit up huge amounts rooted them in place.
Chamot is stubborn and young, and completely convinced that Maura is telling her the truth (whether she is or not). Even if Maura isn't the traitor and mistaken about all this as Hans was, Chamot trusts her implicitly for some reason.
I'm with Moogs on this one.
Didn't Adlet have paralysis darts? I'm sure they could also hit one of her limbs with throwing knives, causing damage without insta-killing her. Adlet accurately disarmed Hans without giving him a scratch, after all.
I'll admit that they were scared shitless of Chamot, but it still stands that the best way to win is to take the initiative. We've just been trained by fiction to "be careful" which leads to the enemy powering up.
@MoM - I think what bothers me the most about that scene is how flawed Chamot's power is. She is considered the strongest, but she needs 10 seconds or more before she can be effective in combat. How the hell hasn't she died until now? Why didn't Flamie shoot her face while she was vomiting? Does everyone just stand around and watch her each and every time until she has killed enough to warrant her reputation?
Hans is a seasoned killer. He of all people should know that taking the initiative or running away are the two best options, but he did neither. Why? Sure there are possible rationalizations, like them wanting to convince Chamot. But in the end, their decision was wrong. Waiting around led to them being cornered.
If you're only going to argue that "it is acceptable" because of the reasons already stated, then okay. What I'm trying to say is, I expected more from these heroes. They could've handled this better without letting it progress to this worst case scenario for the two of them.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 08-26-2015 at 08:31 AM.
Peace.
I'm also very curious to know how Chamot could avoid being sniped.
Maybe everything that touches Chamot's skin just disintegrates. Maybe bullets just go through Chamot or Chamot instantly regenerates. I mean, who knows? Until we're really shown more about her power, all we know is that Flamie ran away because she was terrified. I don't know why you would assume the fight went the exact same way.
Attacking someone who couldn't be defeated by someone with a rifle when you have no idea what their power does seems absolutely crazy.
Yes, Hans and Adlet could have run away immediately. However, that runs counter to their goal and they have no idea what is going on. Those things combined lead perfectly into the situation depicted in the show.
It's also perfectly plausible that Flamie's fight was as bullshit as this one.
I vote throwing paralysis darts at Chamot while she was busy vomiting as the best plan of action. Trying to do this isn't crazy at all, considering Flamie and her rifle survived Chamot just fine. If the attack failed, then at least they know projectiles aren't effective. Doing nothing while gaping in shock is the absolutely crazy course of action IMO.
TBH, I'm actually fine with them being careful. If that was indeed the case, a single line of monologue (a technique they actually use a lot in this show, so it's not a style issue) saying that Adlet intentionally observed Chamot and forfeited initiative for caution would have solved this. Instead, it looks like they just conked out in fear, or that the director got lazy and just rehashed the sentai transformation trope.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 08-26-2015 at 11:37 PM.
Peace.
I just watched the first 20 seconds of the latest episode and Adlet tried to hit Chamo with a slingshot.
So yeah.
EDIT: A minute later they effin pawned the loli with blades (sure, the flat side) on the torso...
Peace.
But she's almost mastered Insta-puke. Those fiends materialise essentially immediately (esp when she's puking).. though it seems she either had a recharge time in-between pukes, or was shocked into not puking when Hans got thrown at her.
The sling-shot changes things though. That's the non-lethal projectile that was missing.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
You mean other than his paralysis darts (ep 1)? And the 101 other things he has in that box and his pockets (he didn't have the box when he threw a crap load of stuff against his pursuers)?
Doesn't matter if her fiends do whatever. The problem is that Adlet and Hans didn't try to do anything when she was puking, including relatively safe attacks, but they ended up pawning her with a ridiculously unsafe one anyway.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Sun, 08-30-2015 at 01:51 AM.
Peace.
You know, I'm still wondering why Chamot didn't eat Hans. She managed to eat everything else that she threw up.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
I guess Hans wasn't her type of a man. I don't blame her.
Ignoring the fact everybody's personality seems to fluctuate a lot depending on the situation, like Hans now getting instantly talked into submission despite the fact he seemed to be a master of it against Adlet and Adlet now coming up with fancy theories despite being unable to say anything against Hans, I don't like how all the thinking always goes to waste by plot devices that just conveniently happened to be there and that somebody just happened to know perfectly. If the fricking fiends knew the barrier won't work without those wooden things underground (I wonder why they aren't thoroughly rotten in that damp place already), why didn't they dig up a sufficient portion of them to make the barrier useless? We have seen big and strong fiends that must have as much strength as an excavator, so it would have been easy enough. No fancy unbreakable temple to worry about, just some wooden poles under the surface layer of dirt. I find it pretty hard to believe the fiends would actually have been planning for centuries to trap the braves inside their own barrier, instead of removing the damn thing. That's like betting on 1% when there's absolutely nothing wrong about the rest of the 99%. This arc stretches forever because of shit like this.
Maura seems more and more guilty all the time. She was very quick to decide Adlet must be guilty and very good at shooting down any other alternatives. There's logically no way Hans wouldn't realise this, Flamie as well after spending time with her. I don't know if she is the guilty one, but if she is, I pray to whatever gods they worship on that island that the story doesn't try to reveal it as a huge surprise.
This is exactly why I hate locked room mysteries like this one. There's always something else the readers and main POV character couldn't possibly know about that counters every theory that comes up until the stupid one that finally reveals who the true culprit is. By that time, the secret plot device that reveals the villain is as foolish and absurd as the ones that counter every rational possibility.
Every thread that would lead the readers and protagonist to the truth is either conveniently ignored and not followed up on so it can all be "revealed" later. To abuse the Sherlock Holmes quote, "Once you eliminate the impossible, rational, and sensible, whatever remains, no matter how conveniently ignored or undisclosed, turns out to be the truth."
This isn't a criticism against Rokka no Yuusha, in fact I think it is generally one of the better ones. It's a criticism of Locked Room Mystery subgenre in general, and especially the Japanese use of it.
-----
Where Rokka no Yuusha succeeds quite well is the characters. With the exception of Adlet, Chamot, and Flamie, we still don't know who the Seventh is. Hans could still be faking it as Bunny-hime just convincingly surmised, Maura is now the leading candidate, Bunny-hime herself has been manipulating Adlet and Goldov emotionally since the first episode, and we still know nothing about Goldov other than his slavish (and perhaps compromising?) devotion to and jealousy about Bunny-hime.
But this series still has very interesting characters from an adventure series standpoint.
Hans in particular this episode revealed himself to be quite a bit more than the Laughing Assassin stereotype. Even last episode kept him on that path with the whole 'pretend to kill you I see your true face' shtick. But this episode he turned it around by showing he's much more thoughtful to Adlet, and a more complex, fully developed person after all. His discussion on inner darkness and Flamie's emotional state was quite astute and accurate, they're both dynamic and interesting people.
But I do think Hans is missing a facet of Flamie's personality. He says she may even hate Adlet, but it's quite possible that it is the opposite and she just doesn't know how to express that properly. She was raised by a fiend who's "love" was only expressed in veiled contempt, duty, and thoughtless purpose. Perhaps what is confusing Hans is that Flamie's way of expressing interest is through the only way she knows how, it certainly seemed that way by the end of the episode. Adlet is the only person in her life who has ever trusted her and showed genuine concern for her well being.
I don't think it went exactly that way. I understood she lived relatively loved and surrounded by (fiend) friends, who were there for her. That's why it was such a shock when they instantly turned cold and began to shun her after a single failure (Chamot). She surmised, probably correctly, they never cared for her in the first place and it was all just an act to use her as a murdering tool. This is why I wrote earlier that she in fact knows what love is, but it betrayed her, leaving her broken and unable to trust anyone. Yet the desire to experience it again should still be there, underneath.
Kraco's right. Flamie broke when she got betrayed by those who treated her with love. That was her main complaint. If she were a tool to be used and thrown away, she wanted to be treated as one, not as true family which the fiends did, so as not to aggravate the pain of betrayal.
I love Flamie's design way too much. When she is onscreen, everything else just fades into blur and gibberish. "Sure, you and you are the Seventh or not, whatever. Now more Flamie." She just needs to raise her arms more.
Peace.
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