GATE: Jieitai Kanochi nite, Kaku Tatakaeri

[shinta|hikari]

It's not unreasonable for a jedi.

She can bayonet elite soldiers (royal guard) to death and box a prince 2 feet taller than her to the mat. She can judge the timing just fine. She didn't want nor intended to.

And I'll repeat it for emphasis, based on what we've seen so far, there's no way she was dying in that situation. They'd have to bring an entire battalion to bring her down lol.

[KrayZ33]

I think it is unreasonable to expect anyone in that situation to have the presence of mind and self control to stop firing at the exact moment that it is possible to stop firing without getting killed.

Exactly. She stopped when it was obviously under control, basically when there was no threat around. That's the point she's supposed to do it and not a single second earlier. Everything else is a risk.

And I'll repeat it for emphasis, based on what we've seen so far, there's no way she was dying in that situation. They'd have to bring an entire battalion to bring her down lol.

And that's just stupid to assume man. She would've been dead already if Rory didn't save her ass in Italica. So she obviously has to rely on her team at some time too.
I don't understand why you'd take that action scene seriously frame by frame when it's so poorly done. Start using common sense instead.

[Kraco]

It's safe to say we know now why Shinta isn't a soldier. Which is cool, of course, because times are good when people who don't want to be soldiers don't need to be. He's looking at this like it was a scene between police officers and criminals, not between soldiers during a war.

Though Itami is a relaxed fellow, but in addition to what I said earlier about choosing the psycho woman, maybe he was also even more smart and could possibly foresee the possibility of something like this happening on a deeper level. The king already prophesied valuing human life so much will bring the Japanese side problems. Now Itami did show that valuing human life in general doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ready to do what needs to be done. It would lead to even more loss of lives if the king/prince don't get this message and again try to attack in vain, thinking the Japanese don't have what it takes.

[shinta|hikari]

@Krayz - That was a hyperbole, in case you missed it. And I use facts shown in the show, not common sense that almost NEVER applies in anime. Yes, she stabbed elite soldiers to death and KO'd a guy 2 feet taller than her. That defies common sense. But did it happen? Oh yes it did.

@Kraco - It's actually worse. Police vs criminals actually have comparable firepower at times. That was not the case here.

You guys are clearly treating this battle as something that happens between equals. They weren't equals. One unit pawned everything. There was little to no risk. But I'm sure you won't accept that, so let's agree to disagree here.

For fun, I decided to argue on the other side and try to explain the scene:

1) The bayonet scene - Shino used a bayonet to dispose of the enemies around her to avoid hitting her allies. Those enemies were surrounding them, and shooting at that point risked hitting something beyond her target, like the King, Pina, or even the prince. So that was completely justified, and not her going crazy like people assume.

2) The guard killing - Shino actually followed training. She didn't care about lives, sure, but it didn't mean she went out of her way to kill people either. Soldiers are trained to follow the manual, so she did just that, even if she did have the capability to spare people. It simply isn't what she was trained and taught to do.

3) The fist fight - This was obviously a show of power and nothing else. There was no risk of anyone interfering because Itami and the other dude had their rifles out.

[KrayZ33]

You guys are clearly treating this battle as something that happens between equals. They weren't equals. There was little to no risk. But I'm sure you won't accept that, so let's agree to disagree here.

I disagree solely on your assumption that there was no risk. Cuz that's not how things are in a situation like that.
I wouldn't say the cop who is 20 feet away from a knife wielding maniac is in no danger either.
I wouldn't assume that 10 soldiers with SMGs and ARs are in no danger if they face a mob of 100 that is armed with pikes and other selfmade weapons.

I agree that they arn't equally armed, but these 10 soldiers should be *allowed* to shoot every freaking 1 of that mob of 100 when they start charging you, unless they run away or lie on the ground, because it's them risking their lives, not the politician or the guy in front of the TV.

[shinta|hikari]

But that cop isn't Master Jedi Shino...

As I said above, you are arguing common sense. I'm stating stuff that actually happened in the show.

EDIT: To answer your edit, sure, they are allowed to shoot to defend themselves. I never argued that Shino should NOT defend herself. C'mon. I said that she could have tried to ask them to surrender, at least once, even during her reloads. What I was arguing is that she never wanted to or intended to do that, and thus never did it.

And I said little to no risk.

[KrayZ33]

You guys are clearly treating this battle as something that happens between equals. They weren't equals. There was little to no risk. But I'm sure you won't accept that, so let's agree to disagree here.

Because you don't start doing that unless you think the situation has been cleared.
I've never heard someone trying to convince another person to surrender while he reloads his weapon, on an open field with no cover, while he is facing multiple opponents that are less than ~30 feet away. That's sounds so silly, I can't even imagine it.

Itami and his squad, or the ambassador, didn't shout either, because they might believe it's not the time to do it as long as things are out of control as they were during that situation.

And I said little to no risk.

doesn't matter, little risk is still to high of a risk in a war if the alternative is zero.

[shinta|hikari]

That's what I said in my counter point #2. She was trained that way, and thus reacted as such.

It had nothing to do with the danger, as you guys are trying to argue earlier.

Could she have done it (asked them to surrender)? Based on her prowess, yes. Could she have done it with little risk to herself? If she did it during reloads, yes. So it isn't a question of capability either.

She acted that way because it was what she was trained and taught to do.

EDIT:
I only mentioned it because you misquoted me and said "no risk."

[KrayZ33]

EDIT:
I only mentioned it because you misquoted me and said "no risk."

Then don't include the "no risk" part?
Saying "little to no risk" implies that depending on your viewpoint, there was no risk at all.

She acted that way because it was what she was trained and taught to do.

That makes no sense... she is trained to fight until the situation is under control. As long as she sees danger, it's okay for her to shoot. She was allowed to "fire at will" but that doesn't mean she is allowed to do whatever she wants. *YOU* believe she wasn't in danger, that doesn't mean someone with common sense, or in the same situation, or the victim/the person under pressure, thinks so too.

I'm out of here for now, gn8.

[Ryllharu]

And I'll repeat it for emphasis, based on what we've seen so far, there's no way she was dying in that situation. They'd have to bring an entire battalion to bring her down lol.

I'm just trying to point out that there is no reason for Itami and crew to think they're invincible, they are in a super dangerous situation, and they pretty much had to kill a bunch of people once Itami made his initial move to save the tortured slave girl.

And that's just stupid to assume man. She would've been dead already if Rory didn't save her ass in Italica. So she obviously has to rely on her team at some time too.

Supporting Moogs and KrayZ33 on this one.

They already realize they're not invincible here, from the earlier time that Kuribayashi went berserk during the city siege and nearly got herself and a few others killed.

The JSDF was in much better control of the situation here, especially with the citizens of the empire literally and figuratively shaken from the earthquake that Itami and crew declared was 'at best a 4-point-meh.'

They had total control of the situation and exploited it to the maximum extent due to Itami and
Ambassador-san's quick thinking when presented with the knowledge that the empire had Japanese hostages.

[MFauli]

You guys´ misconception (excluding Shinta here obviously) is that you aren´t willing to see that YES, Itami DID know about their own superiority. You keep repeating how this was self-defence, how they couldn´t have been sure about their own safety, how they had no other choice. All of which is nonsense.

I don´t want to repeat Shinta´s well-reasoned postings too much, so I´ll try and keep it short: EVERYTHING about that "battle" was a show of power on the side of the JSDF - hence Itami full well knowning that they were vastly superior. He played it ridiculously "smooth" when he gave Kuribayashi this quick, almost whispered order to ... take care of things. He knew what would happen and he was absolutely sure that there was no danger for Kuribayashi herself.

It´s not that hard to accept the following:
- Itami knew about their own superiority
- Kuribayashi is a violent psycho
- there was no need to kill all those guards
- no matter what, torturing the prince was entirely over the line.
- it was not self-defence and there was no point in time during this encounter where any of the JSDF was in danger

To draft how a non-aggressive, peace-interested agent could have handled this:
- first of all, NOT punch the prince
- if the punch happened and the guards do attack, shoot in the air.
- if they keep running, shoot at they feet, hitting them. It´s painful and instantly effective
- if that doesn´t work, shoot to kill. But be on the look-out to see if they´re hesitant about their attack. If so, cease fire.
- when that happens: "Stop NOW or you will all die! You´re powerless against us!"
- if that doesn´t work: Shoot the rest. It was self-defense

OF COURSE, that ignores the perfect path to diplomatic victory:
- do NOT punch the prince
- if he refuses to comply about releasing the hostages, TURN TO THE FUCKING KING!
- ask the king to immediatly initiiate the hostages´ release
From here, two paths:
- if you are here for future peace, explain to the king that this is unacceptable and that you will wait for his final decision within the next 24 hours
- if you are an imperialist, seeking to oppress the locals, just threaten the king, kill the guards, kill everyone that opposes you, who cares, you´re superior

That´s how you do things.

Oh, and at no point do you send one of your own "guys" into unnecessary close-combat. At no point.

[shinta|hikari]

Then don't include the "no risk" part?
Saying "little to no risk" implies that depending on your viewpoint, there was no risk at all.

No, it means there can be little to no risk, as is what is written. It indicates a range. Omitting one part changes the meaning completely.

*YOU* believe she wasn't in danger, that doesn't mean someone with common sense, or in the same situation, or the victim/the person under pressure, thinks so too.

And you think this girl who stabbed elite guards to death and KOs a prince was fearing for her life when she massacred those soldiers? Then let's agree to disagree here.

Oh one thing I would like to add, though I have said it twice before but was ignored, is the fact that Itami and the other dude did not open fire and left everything to Shino. If they wanted to handle it safely and avoid danger as you guys say, all 3 of them should have opened fire and neutralized the enemy as fast as possible. But they didn't.

[Ryllharu]

[The longest post I've ever seen him write]

...and look weak in front of the Emperor?

The leader of an empire who gladly throws their enemies at the Japanese to level the playing field? Who brutalizes and exploits their ethnic and beastmen populations after conquering them? Who treats their civilian population like shit? Who has no respect for women and treats Pina's squad as decoration more than the knights they (sorta) are? Who intends to retire and treat his successor like a puppet? Who abducted Japanese citizens secretly before they opened the gate fully (slaughtering dozens without provocation!), beat (and likely raped) the woman and sold the two men into slavery?

Yeah, they should negotiate with him and request whatsherface's return politely...

The emperor doesn't tolerate any sign of weakness from his own children. Why would he tolerate it from his enemies? Even after the Kuribayashi Berserker Display, he still correctly identified Japan's weakness...that I'm certain he will find a way to exploit in time. What the JSDF did here worked. They got out safely, they got their citizen back, and the Emperor was impressed enough to continue negotiations on the contingent that they determine what happened to whatsherface's boyfriend.

You don't ask warlords for things. You show them why your "request" should be agreed to. Anything less and they'll laugh in your face, or find a way to exploit you.

Step out of the 1st world once in a while. Oh wait, you're from Germany. The 3rd world is coming to you!

[shinta|hikari]

To clarify my position now that more have entered the fray, I actually think the massacre served its point politically. I just don't agree to killing even fictional unnamed guards needlessly. I just hate bullying in general.

[MFauli]

I´ve made longer posts in the glorious School Days-debate ;>

Yeah, they should negotiate with him and request whatsherface's return politely...

Yes, they should. All of the above you listed boils down to cultural differences. Since it seems to be the breaking point: Noriko wasnt treated worse than any other civilian of her status in this fantasy world. It´s how things are there. And that was the situation. There was nothing actively on-going, it was a mash of factual statements floating around in this throne room. Itami is the one who made it violent.

The emperor doesn't tolerate any sign of weakness from his own children. Why would he tolerate it from his enemies?

Then there are different ways to prove their power. And even if the kings calls to immediate actions, THAT is where Itami can give the shooting order.

You don't ask warlords for things. You show them why your "request" should be agreed to. Anything less and they'll laugh in your face, or find a way to exploit you.

He´s a medieval king, not a warlord. Again, cultural differences. Depending on your own mission, you accept or don´t accept them. But you don´t get to be the "innocent hero" if you choose the latter.

Step out of the 1st world once in a while. Oh wait, you're from Germany. The 3rd world is coming to you!

This is the essential fact you have to understand: In terms of military power, fantasy world people aren´t even 3rd world. They´re ants crawling on the ground.

[Kraco]

I don't think emphasising danger and self-defence serves its purpose in this incident. These folks are still soldiers, not cops. It's war and danger goes without saying for soldiers. It's kill or be killed. Otherwise there wouldn't be war to begin with. Cops operating during peace can generally consider things safe until the abnormality occurs, that is, they encounter dangerous criminals. Then they need to think of ways to minimise danger and in fact they also need to make sure even the criminals aren't damaged more than necessary because even the criminals are technically under the law enforcement's protection.

A soldier's function in war is to eliminate enemy soldiers, enemy infrastructure, and enemy progress. They don't need to consider the enemy military's safety or minimise the enemy military's casualties. They do need to follow treaties, more or less, but shit happens in war, that's a fact of life.

This is why Kuribayashi acted precisely like a soldier should after receiving an order from a superior: She simply eleminated all standing enemies. Once there were no standing enemies anymore, she asked for the rest to throw down their weapons. It's not her business to try to save enemies, it's the enemy's own business, but did they lie down or throw away their weapons by themselves? No, they didn't. The soldiers stood till they died, meaning they were still ready to fight. Those nobles (or whatever they were) and the prince weren't standing anymore and were spared in the end.

[shinta|hikari]

Exactly. That was my #2 counter point. It's not about risk or Shino's capability to spare those enemy soldiers. She just did her job and what she was trained to do. Is it humane? No. Is it heroic? No. But it is believable. That's a good enough reason for me to accept those deaths.

[MFauli]

Exactly. That was my #2 counter point. It's not about risk or Shino's capability to spare those enemy soldiers. She just did her job and what she was trained to do. Is it humane? No. Is it heroic? No. But it is believable. That's a good enough reason for me to accept those deaths.

I forgot to reply to this insane statement earlier: HOW was THAT her job? Putting on a jedi show, disregarding all sense of self-preservation and finishing a massacre with some glorified torture?!

If that´s her job ... fuck the JSDF and their training programs lol

[shinta|hikari]

I posted 3 points on my thoughts on the matter. As for how it is her job, I just assumed that's how the JSDF trained their recruits. I'm no expert in military training.

[MFauli]

I posted 3 points on my thoughts on the matter. As for how it is her job, I just assumed that's how the JSDF trained their recruits. I'm no expert in military training.

Im not, either. And I still say: That´s now how anybody in the military, ANY military, does his/her job.