It's an unfortunate cultural difference. These folks understand nothing but power and violence along with it. Or at least those ruling the place. I'm sure lots of the common folks would do just fine without a constant threat of some lord beating or killing them arbitrarily.
But the ones that were killed in that scene were soldiers, not the lords. I'd be more accepting if Itami had the prince, who was the obvious asshole, killed and then asked the soldiers to surrender. Some of those soldiers are likely normal people with families who work hard just like the Japan forces do. Some of them may not even be involved in the kidnappings at all. Now they are dead just because Itami wanted to make a point, one he could have made without that much bloodshed.
The part where psycho girl killed a few of the soldiers through their shields and then proceeded to slaughter the rest of them was just barbaric. It was like a duck shoot. The moment she showed that her gun could pierce shields, they've won that battle. Her call for surrender at the very end was comical because it was like a formality, done only to say in the report that she did it, but in effect saved almost no one.
Peace.
Just to make sure my point is getting accross: For all I care, Itami can give Kuribayashi the order to kill those guards, I don´t care. BUT: They really cannot proclaim themselves "the good guys" anymore with such actions. As shinta detailed, those guards most likely were not involved with the bad stuff, and even if so, they fullfilled the prince´s orders. Had he indeed killed just the prince, it´d have made much more sense. Of course, he didn´t have the guts. I wonder if he would have gone through with killing the prince, would that one have him further denied cooperation. If so, I think I´d have dropped this anime, if the king would have remained passive even then.
As of now, I´m on the prince´s side and hope to see some effective counteractions from him. He had contact with the Noriko girl, so he might know more about the SDF/Japan than we might think. And he´s not dumb per se. A dumb person wouldn´t realize and acknowledge that another person is more fitting of the throne. And the bunny girl is definitely smart, too. Depends who she´s truly loyal towards. If her and the prince work together, I feel like they could stir up quite some shit.
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
if you watch the ep without the preconception that the prince is evil, you can even start to think he's pretty clever and manipulates everyone fairly well. At least he did with his brother and probably Itami. I doubt he did his father though.
The fact that Noriko disapeared before the first strike probably means she's been on the other side longer than we thought.
We know she had sexual intercourse with the prince, but we can't be sure how much of a forced one it was. Even the bunny girl abuse last ep might have been different from what we thought.
Now let's suppose Noriko was in fact teaming with the prince. The show of violence is placing doubt in Pina's head, shows his father the jsdf true colors, instills fear in the lower ranks survivor and will start rumors.
And the prince is very true when he states the invaders are the enemy. Because the true intentions are pillaging that world that isn't protected by any earth convention...
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
No shit.Originally Posted by MFauli
This is exactly how the real world works. Don't try to pretend that Pina's country is to Russia as Japan is to the US. They got stomped in their first full incursion, and obliterated when Japan retaliated. Guess who that's like? Countries/forces in the Middle East.
The US doesn't pay for hostages. At best they trade them (which the JSDF in this series has been doing). But if they are engaged in operations in the region, they simply take them back by force. All the time.
If the Taliban had an American (or Japanese, or British, or Australian, or random NGO) in captivity, the US would attack the Taliban, assault the compound, take the hostage, and kill everyone inside.
Stop pretending this is a fight between 1st and 2nd World powers. It's a 1st world nation attacking a backwater 3rd world nation. And their magic doesn't mean shit. They tried it already with dragons and shit. Artillery and anti-aircraft weapons tore through them. Mages would get killed via sniper fire, the series has already shown Japan's sniper teams to be rather competent.
Last edited by Ryllharu; Sat, 01-16-2016 at 01:35 PM. Reason: paragraphs separated better. edit2: some minor fixes
If Russia went into America and abduct civilians there wouldn't be any peace talks unless that matter is setteled, and they'd be at war obviously.If Russia had an American in prison, the US wouldn´t start an attack against Russia. Because that would mean war. They´d start negotiations, make an official complaint and proceed.
And the Empire and Japan is not at peace at the moment, I'm pretty sure that there is no cease fire either. You do realize that they were about to shoot the prince when he went to the meeting?
The only reason why the Empire isn't getting stomped is because Japan doesn't want to stomp it and not because they are bound to a contract or something like that.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sat, 01-16-2016 at 02:01 PM.
bs
If the Taliban had American hostages, the US would first try to negotiate (not to the fullest, of Course), but they wouldn´t instantly attack, because that would endanger the hostages all the more.
@David: I would love for something like that come true
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
Ahahahahaha
You're fucking funny. Pretending you know. The US does not negotiate. They assault (rescue successfully or end up killing everyone), kill everyone (including the hostages) in airstrikes, or prisoner swap (used the least often, because it only works when the US has someone they want).
When you're ready to stop lying in a pathetic attempt to justify your positions we might be able to have a discussion. Until then, you just continue to prove your ignorance.
Lying? okay.
My Point stands: The US wouldnt start bombing the enemy when they´re telling the world "we have american hostages". Depending on who the enemy is, they´d start negotiations and/or gather more Intel to futher evaluate the Situation. And instead of calling me a liar, how about you drop the whole comparison and instead accept that Itami´s actions were nonsensical for somebody who´s trying to negotiate peace?
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
It wasn't a nonsensical reaction. But rather some kind of programmed routine that activated like in the first ep.
He's a soldier, when a civilian from his side needs rescue, he does get a little violent.
And I would really like the prince or bunny girl be the ones to prepare a scene where Itami would switch into that mode.
They are underdevelopped, but that doesn't mean they are stupid and can't understand their enemy and can't try to manipulate them.
That's part of the stinging I was refering to. And it just comes from what we know of irl fights of huge powers vs underdevelopped countries.
Sure, they can't win, but they can make a hell of a region. That doesn't mean they are right, or that I agree. But it's a fact they are efficient in what they do with limited ressources: beign a pain in the ass.
All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening. And then: Golf.
I just can't believe people are actually typing some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread.
To comment on the latest point, Itami was in an emotionally charged situation, and he acted on impulse. It doesn't have anything to do with trying to negotiate peace.
Once that happened, the enemies attacked with the intent to kill and the JSDF responded in kind.
You can't just be like "Oh, these guys with shields and spears are charging me, so I'll just shoot some warning shots. Maybe I'll only kill one and wait a minute to see if they stop."
You would be absolutely nutso crazy to not be ready to fire with the intent to kill at anybody charging you when you're in the middle of the enemy base, completely surrounded by who knows how many people.
Even more so when you know they torture and rape their prisoners.
That's not the way it was presented. The nutso crazy one is the girl who used a bayonet to kill the first few soldiers before shooting the rest down. How do you explain that?
Shooting one or two soldiers would do the trick. The unique thing about the situation is the sheer difference in fighting power, which was demonstrated in that very scene. They weren't in any real danger, at least at the point where the girl decided to massacre the soldiers. It's fine to fire with the intent to kill. It's different when you slaughter obviously defenseless people. And the JSDF know they are defenseless against them after fighting them many times already. The crazy girl could've stopped midway during her killing spree, but only decided to do so when almost everyone was dead.
And again, the bayonet combat. That alone invalidates the idea of them fighting for their own safety. There's also the fact that they let one soldier fight the entire enemy squad when all 3 of them have guns. If they were in real danger, all three of them would have fired their weapons, don't you think?
To use the example you mentioned, it should've been like: Oh, there are soldiers charging at me. I'll shoot to defend myself. OMG, they are dying like flies and can't even come near. I'll stop shooting for a bit and ask them to surrender.
Instead it was like this: Oh, there are soldiers charging at me. I'll kill a few of them with the knife on my GUN, and after showing them how bad ass I can be while risking my safety for no reason whatsoever, then I'll shoot them. OMG, they are dying like flies and can't even come near. I'll just keep shooting anyway. Ok, no one is standing anymore. Time to ask them to surrender!
Just to be clear, I'm fine with Itami punching the prince and asking the girl to defend them. It was the needless killing that really made me dislike that scene. The prince torture made them lose moral high ground, but I personally don't mind him getting his face beat in.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Sun, 01-17-2016 at 01:27 AM.
Peace.
If he had been interested in moral high ground, he wouldn't have taken the psycho girl with him in the first place. He would have taken a Buddhist priest. However, he was limited to few people for practical reason so that their uninvited visit to the palace wouldn't look like an occupation. It makes thus sense to take a killing machine. A killing machine comparable to a revered holy person of that world, Rory. He again wasn't interested in appearing like a holier than thou person when the enslaving of Japanese citizens was revealed. He decided then and there to teach a lesson to these folks in the only language they would understand, to make it absolutely clear that if they kidnap any Japanese, the consequences won't be light and being a prince makes no exception. That is, the life of a random Japanese is equal to that of a royal crown prince. I'm pretty sure the message was somewhat received.
The only problem I had with this Ep was that Kuribayashi charged in with her bayonett instead of gunning them down - once again.
I get it thats her "character" (or something like that) but no matter how you look at it, she puts herself in danger doing that, for no reason.
Her having an idol look and being extremely small doesn't help either.
I even thought that gunning them all down was the correct choice, it's 3 vs 20, you can't just shoot 3 *soldiers* and expect the rest to give up, they know death after all especially since we are in the middle ages where people die left and right... and it's not like they were in friendly territory either.
It's not like today where there is an outrage when 10 soldiers died in battle somewhere on a peacemaking mission.
I think it's kinda ridiculous to expect anything else.
Btw, maybe I'm being a slowpoke here, but I just noticed that Itami's Special Forces callsign is "Avenger" and him being in the Special Forces is actually not just being "said and forgotten".
Archer, Saber, Rider and Caster (who was the last one, Berserker?) are probably always the same guys and the same squad and Itami is part of that elite squad. Cool.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Sun, 01-17-2016 at 06:08 AM.
Kuribayashi is a reckless nutcase, and that's the clear reason from this episode and the city defense one why she's still with the grunts and Itami is the decorated special operative that she desperately aspires to be.
But if you view that scene in terms of demonstration, it makes a lot more sense. You have Itami and the Japanese ambassador standing in front of the Emperor, his successor, several high ranking officials, and their first princess. She already knows what they can do, but a lot of what she's said to other people has been brushed aside as stories, until they see it for themselves at a villa party.
There were others there. Itami could have had Tomita back up Kuribayashi and finish the whole thing in seconds. Tomita only covers her, and never once fired.
Itami deliberately let her wade in alone, knowing she'd charge in with a bayonet. It was a demonstration in escalation of force.
- The JSDF send their "weakest" fighter, a woman.
- Their "weakest" fighter can solo a number of their soldiers with her own blade, not even using her terrifying primary weapon.
- When they use defensive combat, she fires through them in seconds.
- Itami then has Kuribayashi drop her weapon and beat the shit of a skilled fighter with her bare hands.
All while the Emperor looks on, seeing first hand the difference in their individual skill. Not just because Japan has super-weapons compared to them, but because they are simply better trained and superior fighters. A tiny JSDF woman can beat them with a blade, she can tear through their defenses, and even without a weapon she can beat some of their best.
That's why she starts with a bayonet. "No matter what we use you can't beat us."
The trick is of course that Kuribayashi isn't their weakest fighter, she's one of their nastiest (though poorly disciplined). But she looks like she would be the weakest to these people.
Kuribayashi being so overwhelmingly stronger in close-combat than the guards was bs, too, btw..If theres ONE thing those guards should good at, it´s close-combat. And you cannot even say "well, those were weak guards", because they´re the freaking king´s guard or prince guard or whatever. Kuribayashi is way too "anime" :/
Btw is "moral highground" exactly the word I failed to apply. That´s what the SDF definitely does NOT have. And it makes me wonder how this show would develop if the fantasy world people would NOT want to welcome the Japanese members. So far, this anime has taken an easy road: Royalty is evil/oppressive, therefore it is a-ok to appear as the holy, innocent saviors. But that would change completely if the folks didnt see it like that. And just wait: If stuff like regulating STDs is followed up properly, there will be regulations and laws all over the place, that the fantasy people will have to obey, too. And if this show is any realistic at all, there will be A LOT of unhappy residents. Simple things like gastronomic hygiene. Then you reach stuff like "no weapons in the hands of civilians". And with forcefully ending royalty, there´ll be entire structures missing.
Really hope for a realistic portrayal of all that, one that doesn´t paint the JSDF as innocent and "good".
Come on, fantasy people, bring out more priestesses like Rory, but opposing the SDF. Now THAT would be interesting!
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
I agree with Ryll. That entire scene makes more sense as a demonstration. So in a way, it wasn't senseless killing. Itami was making a statement that if you hurt a Japanese civilian, you are going to get owned, and this is HOW we will own you. All the stupid parts make more sense that way.
But that is exactly how I've seen that scene from the start. I still think it was needless killing because their power is too imbalanced anyway, and that can be demonstrated without that massacre.
3 versus 20 doesn't apply if you have friggin assault rifles vs medieval weapons. That's just a ridiculous analysis as the episode itself shows. Medieval soldiers may be used to death, but they sure aren't used to guns, as shown by every battle thus far. Add to that Jedi psycho girl, and I think those arguing that this was some kind of justified exercise of self-defense need to rewatch the episode. I understand that the interpretation they are asserting "makes sense story-wise or even in terms of realism." Heck, I even understand why you would want to believe that. But that wasn't what happened in this episode.
Peace.
She could've killed all of them and I still wouldn't flinch the slightest.
It's war, waddaphuk? And it's not like your are freaking invicible just because you have an assault rifle even against medieval weapons.
She dropped a fair amount of soldiers didn't execute anyone that was lying on the ground and disarmed the situation, what's the freaking problem.
Last edited by KrayZ33; Mon, 01-18-2016 at 01:07 PM.
This pretty much summarizes our difference in opinion.
People can be so numb to violence and death sometimes. What's one more soldier? Just kill 'em all!
Peace.
I just don't see why soldiers would need to unnecessarily put themselves in a more dangerous position only to spare a hostile country's soldier.
As mentioned, she focused on killing armed soldiers that were still standing and relatively close to her.
The dudes that got knocked out by Itami and the soldiers in the far back didn't get hit. they all survived, only the first two rows of enemy soldiers died, the first one lined up to advance on her, the second one might've charged in for all we know. Even if they didn't, who's to say that they wouldn't start throwing their spears.
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