Dragon Ball Super

[Buffalobiian]

also the moment when trunks and vegeta were able to hold back zamazu together with the galick gun remained me of the gohan + goku final kamehameha against cell which was cool as fuck... until goku just used kamehameha alone to hold zamasu back too...

This was my thought exactly. I hate seeing Goku completely outclass Vegeta (because I'm a Vegeta fan), especially when it's done implicitly.

Zamasu will still be able to generate, but now it consumes huge chunks of his KI. Thus, getting wounded makes him weaker for good. Gogeta will probably happen....

When we have Vegeto around, there's no reason for Gogeta to happen.

That'll be shit writing if that's the case, because that's SPECIFICALLY not how fusion has been explained to work in the past.

Fusion doesn't make you weaker. Even if you fuse with someone weaker than you.

I wouldn't be so sure. Fusion is supposed to increase your power exponentially right? That's why dropping a bit of power doesn't matter. If Goku fused with Mr Satan however, I wouldn't be surprised at the result being weaker than Goku by default.

Also, this is strictly about power levels. Immortality is an attribute, not a power level. I don't think there's a rule that you get the best attributes of both and the weaknesses of none. Losing immortality because you've fused is a pretty legit way of fucking over Zamatsu.

[DarthEnderX]

If Goku fused with Mr Satan however, I wouldn't be surprised at the result being weaker than Goku by default.

I could understand him not getting stronger at all, but not weaker.

Like I said, Fusion does not make you into a middle-ground of the two people you fuse together.

If one of them immediately recovers from injury due to being immortal, the resulting fusion shouldn't be MORE susceptible to damage than one of the originals.

[NeoCybercoin]

I do think he is no longer immortal. Or perhaps only a part of him would regenerate now since he basically mixed bodies together. It's like you said, it's an attribute. SSJ4 Gogeta for example was insanely strong but did not take anything serious and liked playing around. That is not a good attribute to have. Hell, look at Gotenks. He basically has Trunk's personality only enhanced. Again, not a good trait.

It's not that strange to see Vegeta and Trunks hold their own against that blast. Goku was stronger than Zamasu and Vegeta overpowered Black. Black was the stronger of the two so yeah he did fuse with a weaker Zamasu.

[Buffalobiian]

Like I said, Fusion does not make you into a middle-ground of the two people you fuse together.

If one of them immediately recovers from injury due to being immortal, the resulting fusion shouldn't be MORE susceptible to damage than one of the originals.

I never said middle ground. How are you understanding the maths?

I'm thinking of something like this:

Goku: 5K
Vegeta: 3K

Fusion = matched power level ^2

Therefore Gogeta = 3000^2 = 9M

---------------------------

Goku = 5K
Mr Satan = 70
Goku/Satan Fusion = 70 ^2 = 4900.

The point is that if you're understand the equation to start with the shared power level as its base calculation, then it could be possible to end up with a weaker individual.

Allow me to put it this way: Goku and Mr Satan fusing might as well be 2x Mr Satans fusing. That's how matching power levels matter. If your power is similar enough, fusion is worth the tradeoff. Drastic differences wouldn't be worth it.

Example 2:

Gotenks is essentially 2xGoten fusion. Trunks dropping his power level is worthwhile because Gotenks is stronger than Trunks+Goten in addition.

That's my understanding of Fusion.

[ForteCross]

I never said middle ground. How are you understanding the maths?

I'm thinking of something like this:

Goku: 5K
Vegeta: 3K

Fusion = matched power level ^2

Therefore Gogeta = 3000^2 = 9M

---------------------------

Goku = 5K
Mr Satan = 70
Goku/Satan Fusion = 70 ^2 = 4900.

The point is that if you're understand the equation to start with the shared power level as its base calculation, then it could be possible to end up with a weaker individual.

Allow me to put it this way: Goku and Mr Satan fusing might as well be 2x Mr Satans fusing. That's how matching power levels matter. If your power is similar enough, fusion is worth the tradeoff. Drastic differences wouldn't be worth it.

Example 2:

Gotenks is essentially 2xGoten fusion. Trunks dropping his power level is worthwhile because Gotenks is stronger than Trunks+Goten in addition.

That's my understanding of Fusion.

>implying that math works for dragon ball power ups...

even if it did so we dont really know the correct equation...

[DarthEnderX]

I'm thinking of something like this:

That's nice. But, again, not how fusion works. Unless they've decided to retcon it.

[MFauli]

My head hurts ...

[Buffalobiian]

So explain to me why Fusion requires matched power levels?

Or rather, tell me how you think fusion works.

I don't even remotely expect the maths to be correct in my previous post. It's there to illustrate a point: that if the matched power level is low enough you can create a weaker being.

[DarthEnderX]

So explain to me why Fusion requires matched power levels?

I believe only the Fusion Dance version has that requirement.

Or rather, tell me how you think fusion works.

I can do better than that, I can tell you what the official databook says about Potara Fusion.

"The resulting fusion will have the power of both fusees multiplied by each other."

Which means unless Satan's power level is less than 1(which it's not), it literally CAN'T make Goku's power level DROP by fusing with him.

I remember that one time Vegeta and Goku said, before using the potara earrings, that they shouldn´t fuse while being super saiyajins, cause then they wouldn´t be able to undo the super saiyajin and burn out rather quickly, dying. So they returned to normal, fusioned, the went to SSJ again.

If that is true, then I´d also agree that a fusion CAN be weaker than the individuals prior to it.

I don't see how the first thing makes them somehow weaker.

For all you know, the fusion of two Super Saiyans would be even MORE powerful than the fusion of two Saiyans that then go Super Saiyan. The problem was not that it's weaker, it's that fusion wouldn't be able to turn off Super Saiyan, and that the strain of being constantly Super Saiyan would eventually kill them.

In fact, Fusion Zamasu would have that exact problem because Black was Super Saiyan Rose when they fused. But he's Immortal, so it's not going to be an issue for him.

[ForteCross]

Which means unless Satan's power level is less than 1(which it's not), it literally CAN'T make Goku's power level DROP by fusing with him.

i am not the one that decided that satans power level is 1... in mathematics if you say that something is not less than X it means that its equal to or bigger than X, and you always use the smallest posible X just to simplify things because its part of the rule that has been set (in this case if satan's power is not less than 1, then its equal to OR bigger than 1 but why the fuck would i say that satans power is 100 if the same rule can be applied to 1?)

anyway, i am pretty sure its been stated that trunks had to lower his power level to match goten's for their fusion AND been stated atleast in the freezer arc that the Z fighters were able to lower their ki to match that of the nameks so they could conceal themselves from all the bad guys with the eye scanner

[MFauli]

I remember that one time Vegeta and Goku said, before using the potara earrings, that they shouldn´t fuse while being super saiyajins, cause then they wouldn´t be able to undo the super saiyajin and burn out rather quickly, dying. So they returned to normal, fusioned, the went to SSJ again.

If that is true, then I´d also agree that a fusion CAN be weaker than the individuals prior to it. If Mr Satan has power level 300, Goku has power level 3000000000000, then by going down to 300 himself, he has no way of reaching the 3000000000000 afterwards. The fusion body wouldn´t be capable of withstanding that much of a power difference.

[NeoCybercoin]

Unless the very fact that he fused with a transformed Black could be part of his undoing as well. I mean, if he starts to regenerate to counter the strain from the transformation.....it'd be like an auto immune illness and he'd just tear himself apart.

[DarthEnderX]

Unless the very fact that he fused with a transformed Black could be part of his undoing as well. I mean, if he starts to regenerate to counter the strain from the transformation.....it'd be like an auto immune illness and he'd just tear himself apart.

Except he's Immortal, so he shouldn't be able to tear himself apart.

unless goku himself controlled his ki to be of power level 1 (as we said satan has)

Satan's power level is NOT 1. They've never said what it is, but the farmer Raditz meets when he first lands on Earth has a power level of 5.

When I say "Fusion", I strictly mean Fusion Dance. Earing fusion has no requirements, no base powerlevel matching, and thus no need for me to say that the final product will be weak.

Well that would have been useful information before now, yes. Given that Potara Fusion is the only one taking place atm, I assumed that was the one we were talking about.

So yes, A Satan/Goku fusion would be weaker than Goku, because Goku would have to match his power level to Satan's to even be able to fuse, and if he tried to power back up after fusing, the fusion would come apart because Fusion Dance fusions come apart of the power levels of the two participants become unsynced.

That said, Fusion Dance still creates an entity that is "a superior being whose power is multiplied several-fold over that of the individual fusees".

Which means if, for example, Satan has a power level of 50. Goku would have to lower his power level to 50, giving them a combined power level of 100. But then the resulting fusion is "multiplied several-fold" over that. So he'd probably have a power level somewhere between like 300-700(depending on your definition of "several"). Which, yes, is MUCH lower than Goku's starting power level, but still far higher than Satan's.

[ForteCross]

Satan's power level is NOT 1. They've never said what it is, but the farmer Raditz meets when he first lands on Earth has a power level of 5.

dude it was just an example to simplify it >.>

[Janice]

Which means if, for example, Satan has a power level of 50. Goku would have to lower his power level to 50, giving them a combined power level of 100. But then the resulting fusion is "multiplied several-fold" over that. So he'd probably have a power level somewhere between like 300-700(depending on your definition of "several"). Which, yes, is MUCH lower than Goku's starting power level, but still far higher than Satan's.

We know the Super Saiyan transformation power level multipliers, according to Toriyama:

SSJ - 50x base
SSJ2 - 2x SSJ (100x base)
SSJ3 - 4x SSJ2 (400x base)

We know Vegito in his base form was far superior to SSJ3 Goku when he fought Buu, so we can estimate fusion probably gave a power level increase of something like 5x Goku's SSJ3, or a 2000x increase from his base form (or more). Vegito then turned Super Saiyan giving another 50x (100,000x).

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito is probably somewhere along the lines of 1,000,000+ times stronger than base Goku, given how strong SSB has been shown to be. At this point the power levels are simply unfathomable, if they weren't already. I would suggest stop worrying about them and just enjoy the ride. Super has never been consistent with power levels anyway.

[yapchagi]

We know the Super Saiyan transformation power level multipliers, according to Toriyama:

SSJ - 50x base
SSJ2 - 2x SSJ (100x base)
SSJ3 - 4x SSJ2 (400x base)

interesting. I remember during freeza's battle on namek, he mentioned his power to be 500,000 on his base form. And 1 million after he transforms the 1st time. So probably his power grows twice each time he transforms, giving his final form at around 4 million. Goku's first SSJ1 should be around 5 million then. Teen gohan's SSJ2 form when he fights with cell should be around 20 - 40 million. Goku's first SSJ3 during Fat Majinboo fight scene should be at 100 million.

[Buffalobiian]

When I say "Fusion", I strictly mean Fusion Dance. Earing fusion has no requirements, no base powerlevel matching, and thus no need for me to say that the final product will be weak.

I do not doubt that Earing Fusion would get you a stronger being. I do doubt that for Dance fusion. This is solely based on the fact that

1) You can stuff it up (and have fat/thin/weak shit) and
2) You need to lower your power to match.

So let's do this again DEX: Tell me how you think Fusion Dance works?

[ForteCross]

When I say "Fusion", I strictly mean Fusion Dance. Earing fusion has no requirements, no base powerlevel matching, and thus no need for me to say that the final product will be weak.

I do not doubt that Earing Fusion would get you a stronger being. I do doubt that for Dance fusion. This is solely based on the fact that

1) You can stuff it up (and have fat/thin/weak shit) and
2) You need to lower your power to match.

So let's do this again DEX: Tell me how you think Fusion Dance works?

its weird that you yourself pointed out the requirement of 2 beings having the same power level to be able use the fusion dance.

going by that logic satan and goku would never be able to do the fusion dance, unless goku himself controlled his ki to be of power level 1 (as we said satan has)

so yeah, if satan and goku with reduced ki level (to match satan's) did the fusion dance it would then for sure be weaker than goku by himself because that fusion was of 2 beings with a power level of 1.

anyway the power levels are already fucked up in super so there is no real reason to discuss the potential power level of any character because right now if a character needs to be able to do something of importance then he will be able to do so because the writes decided to do so... just like trunks is able to fight enemies that even SSB is not always able to hold up

[Buffalobiian]

so yeah, if satan and goku with reduced ki level (to match satan's) did the fusion dance it would then for sure be weaker than goku by himself because that fusion was of 2 beings with a power level of 1.

Yes, that has been exactly what I've been getting at, besides not clarifying that I'm talking about Dance fusion.

[shinta|hikari]

Well, you gotta admit you did say "(as we said Satan has)" instead of "(just an example)". No one said Satan had 1 as a power level (except you), did they?