This argument really keeps going in circles.
Munsu, as long as you cannot convince us that Soma did ANYTHING special to break his opponent´s "copy + 1 up"-ability, you won´t get a reply that says "oh, I can understand that".
This argument really keeps going in circles.
Munsu, as long as you cannot convince us that Soma did ANYTHING special to break his opponent´s "copy + 1 up"-ability, you won´t get a reply that says "oh, I can understand that".
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
But you haven't been doing that. You've been simply reducing what Youma did to was simply use his experience and skills and that's it. That wasn't what occurred. That you think it's lame and what not is not what is being argued. If you're ready to acknowledge that it occurred, then there's nothing to discuss.Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
That's fine if you had left it at that, but you then had to extrapolate from it for what it said about other opponents and so and such, and that's when I stepped in because all your premises are completely flawed, hence the jumped to conclusions you did.If you notice from the start, I approached this episode from an entertainment standpoint. I have also said that the outcome is perfectly possible. The big problem is the hoops you mentioned aren't creative or impressive, and therefore not satisfying considering the build up.
This is again where you're failing, I've already showed you what he did to directly counter it. It's very easy to see, so not sure why you keep bringing that up other than simply being stubborn about it for a reason I can't comprehend.Mimasaka was supposedly able to copy everyone and go one step beyond. That's his thing. Souma didn't break that skill. You say he sorta did by doing all those preparations. But the whole point of Mimasaka's ability is that those preparations, skill, experience, everything is negated because he profiles you and copies your dish perfectly, and then goes a step beyond. Souma didn't do anything to directly address that aspect of the battle. At the very least nothing impressive or worth all that build up. That's the main issue.
That you don't find it impressive or worth the build up is nothing I care to argue about, it has no relevance on the former, and that's fine.
The thing is that you're equating being profiled to copying a dish. Though related, as one feeds the other, they're not the same. Copy Man didn't fail at profiling Souma all told as you mentioned, but only so much info can be gathered, not the entirety of it... that's part of it. The copying aspect was prevented because Souma did indeed do an improv (the anime doesn't want to give it that label for reasons already discussed).You're saying that Mimasaka failed to profile him. What part of him? His years of experience? That was the only aspect Mimasaka didn't know in detail. He knew about everything else. But wait, Mimasaka also knew about his time in Yukihira and managed to predict the oxtail stew based on that. So where exactly did Mimasaka fail?
Souma taking steps to prevent being profiled does not equate to those steps succeeding, and the episode clearly stated that Souma's attempt to hide info failed, and his attempt to improvise was foreseen, and his recipe plan was predicted.
Yet he still won. See my problem with this?
Keep in mind that most of what Copy Man brought forward to try and guess what Souma did was based on the things that Souma did practicing with the reporter. There was another component that Souma kept to himself, didn't practice it, didn't give hints about it. With the information at hand, and other observable events, Mimasaka predicted some of it, but that's where it ended.
Where Mimasaka failed that he didn't contemplate how effective Souma would be in doing an improv, a dish he's never performed, and how much preparation that dish actually had in it's creation without actually practicing it (which is the BS about it not being improv, when it actually is, hence why I call it pseudo improv).
The fact that 1) Souma faked Mimasaka on the final dish, 2) Took measures to be prepared for an improv session, 3) Took measures to ensure that the very final dish wasn't going to be copied, are evidence enough that Souma attacked Copy Man's copy skill. It's not flashy, but it is what it is, satisfactory or not.
And yes taking these measures, and in addition to his skills and experience and ability and the ability to prepare THIS particular new dish without physically practicing it, is what made this all possible. Not everyone could've done so, but he could. You can attach whatever reason you want to it, the end conclusion won't change.
He's NOT relying on them, and he doesn't NEED to do them. He simply does as a good tactician would do. What it does do is make him an asshole.EDIT:
Also, relying on ambushes doesn't necessarily mean you suck, but it is highly suggestive of it. If you are truly a great chef, then there's no need to lower the abilities of your opponents during the battle. The fact that you need to do this means you are covering up for a weakness or gap in ability.
Whatever. Other than you know, the great Souma shied away from facing him head on. Ambushes aside, his base skills may not be as good as Souma and company, yet Souma shied away from the direct challenge. So his skills of twisting known dishes at the very least is legit. What he's failing at is in creating his own things, and that's what Souma alluded to pretty much, that he's a good cook and shouldn't be relying on this (the copy aspect).Why is this relevant? Because I think Mimasaka's base skill is not that high. Sure, he's better than the nameless mobs, but we're talking about the named characters here. When I said he and Aldini suck, it's in comparison to the relevant names in the show, like Souma, the other finalists, Alice, and the like. I only used the elite 10 for comparison to exaggerate the conclusion, which is him being obliterated.
You're simply rationalizing something that you don't accept because it's unsatisfying to you, nothing more and nothing less. If you want to convince yourself of a falsehood simply because it makes you get through this better, so be it. But it doesn't invalidate what Souma actually did (and didn't do for that matter) to be able to beat Copy Man and that in the end, he chickened out from doing exactly what he said he was going to do... face him head on.Why does Mimasaka's base skill being low matter? Because that would explain how Souma won without breaking the copy skill, and how Mimasaka failed to profile Souma's final dish despite knowing everything he usually does about his opponents.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that Souma did anything special. I'm saying he took steps to combat it, and those steps included things he and very few could actually do. Whether they're special or not, not my problem nor my interest.
That said, if you don't find cooking something new for the first time (no real practice to it or preparation other than thinking on potential ingredients and what he made do with them when the time comes) and beat an opponent in a cooking competition while doing so as not at least somehow impressive (in real terms, not in anime satisfaction context), then so be it.
Anyways, I'm tired of this whole discussion as it is. I've said what I wanted to say. I'll leave you guys the last word if you want it, won't address this issue again.
That's the problem. The only reason we are having this discussion is because we DON'T think Souma did anything special (and more importantly, not entertaining or satisfying). If that's not your problem or interest, why even argue? Even if you found issue in how I argued it, what's the point if you have no vested interest in the actual meat of the discussion? Well, that's not really important. Just thought I'd mention it because this discussion actually got so many pages.
Beating the opponent doesn't count here. We are judging Souma's actions excluding the judgment. That's only natural because we are questioning the judgment itself. We simply think he shouldn't have won with what he did. We are actually questioning WHY he could even win with a dish that he prepared for the first time against a chef that specializes in beating that kind of thing, if he didn't do anything unique to add on top of it.
Unique might be the better word to describe it (as opposed to special). Souma should've done something no one else in the past has done against Mimasaka to make this a satisfying victory. He didn't.
Peace.
I'm simply trying to enumerate the facts of the matter, which for some reason are dismissed because of "unsatisfactory reasons" or such. That's my real interest here. Whatever qualifiers you want to give those facts are not my my interest to argue, but that the facts at least are accepted are.
The only unique aspect of it in the end is doing a one-shot improv, that is not really an improv (and it's important that you understand that this is what actually happened). Take it or leave it. The rest are all steps that either people couldn't do because of their specific scenario (time-constraints, ambushes, and such) and those that actually did, didn't have the skills to see it through. And yes, some of these DO SUCK.Beating the opponent doesn't count here. We are judging Souma's actions excluding the judgment. That's only natural because we are questioning the judgment itself. We simply think he shouldn't have won with what he did. We are actually questioning WHY he could even win with a dish that he prepared for the first time against a chef that specializes in beating that kind of thing, if he didn't do anything unique to add on top of it.
Unique might be the better word to describe it (as opposed to special). Souma should've done something no one else in the past has done against Mimasaka to make this a satisfying victory. He didn't.
You want to call it bullshit or whatever, that's fine, but it IS what happened.
Hope that clarifies the stance a bit. But as MFauli mentioned, we've been going in circles, and I honestly don't care much on this (other in the interest of having a discussion on whatever), but I'm tired of the topic and it's sinking more time than I care for it.
It is what happened, and I think it's bullshit. What I take from your last post is that we should just accept what did happen. And we do. We just think it's unsatisfactory.
Really, this could've gone so much better if Souma (actually the author) had actually thought of a better solution to the copy than experience ejaculation. It just feels so strange how Mimasaka beat him every step of the way, from knowing the oxtail choice, to the extra meats, to the garnish challenge, but still lost randomly in the end.
Peace.
A better way they could have shown Souma's superiority over Mimasaka would be to have the ingredients varied or be rotten / contaminated.
Say they both ordered some oxtail from Supermarket A and it ended up being contaminated or bad. They would have had to make adjustments on the fly. Mimasaka may predict what Souma would make, but he wouldn't be able to make it since he's never seen/copied it prior. His skill base wouln't let him pull it off first hand either because he's only ever copied someone's best works without experiencing the failures that came before it.
Souma would be able to come up with a decent dish first-go because of his prior experience. Something like that would be believable, but at the same time feel "cheap" all the same because Souma didn't really beat Copy.
Last edited by Buffalobiian; Wed, 08-10-2016 at 06:31 AM. Reason: grammar
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
I'm actually fine with Souma's dish as is. They just need to explain/rationalize how he won better than just having more EXP. I would've actually liked it if Souma simply tricked Mimasaka into thinking he was making stew + garnish but was actually making a completely different dish.
I mean, Souma didn't lie. He did make stew for the contest. But he didn't make stew only. He made several dishes and combined them into one. Mimasaka thought the extra parts were garnishes because he was so locked onto Souma's personality (straightforward) and the stew comment that he didn't realize the possibility of making a completely new fusion dish, which I think is what Souma actually made. God knows that isn't beef stew anymore, but it looked fucking awesome.
This is "unique" compared to all the other people Mimasaka defeated because it combines the 2 counters against him, hiding the dish AND improv. Not only that, it shows that people can adjust their personality for a win, breaking the profiling technique. Souma was never the type to trick people, but Mimasaka deserved to be trolled in order to understand how cheap his tactics are. That could replace the "I wanted you to see how cooking is so cool" bludgeoning that Souma did to reform this guy.
This scenario is definitely less shounen-like, but that's probably a good thing in the context of this show.
Peace.
Isn't THIS exactly what I've been arguing that happened here?
Though to your first two sentences in your post, I think it hits the nail in the head more than anything... the explanation aspect wasn't done well, in part because of the BS'ing of why an improv wasn't really an improv. and such. But outside of that, it's quite apparent what did happen.
The bolded part didn't happen because Mimasaka supposedly predicted everything Souma did, from the oxtail, the extra meat, the improv, and the garnish. This means Souma's attempt at hiding anything failed.
My proposal would be that Mimasaka thought it was garnish, but was in fact a completely new dish, and Souma would explain it as such. Even if Souma's final dish is essentially the same, in this scenario, Mimasaka made a mistake. That italicized part is critical in convincing the audience of the win.
And take note, I made this proposal way before we even began arguing about nonsense.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 08-10-2016 at 09:39 AM.
Peace.
Other than, you know, he didn't predict EVERYTHING Souma did...
Funny tidbit though that Copy Man boasted about knowing the improv and the extra meat AFTER Souma brought all those elements into play (not that it matters for our discussion, but interesting nonetheless).
Not predicting the final dish is kinda a big deal too.
But as also depicted, what Souma did was also not a full on improv either, so that's another aspect Copy Man failed to predict.
You're making all such proposals and such, but in essence we're still right where we started, that you don't want to accept that something that you'd be fine with had it occurred, when it actually did occur (albeit a different way) but you don't want to acknowledge it.My proposal would be that Mimasaka thought it was garnish, but was in fact a completely new dish, and Souma would explain it as such. Even if Souma's final dish is essentially the same, in this scenario, Mimasaka made a mistake. That italicized part is critical in convincing the audience of the win.
And take note, I made this proposal way before we even began arguing about nonsense.
Man, this verbal bout keeps dragging worse than old DBZ!
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
Bolded to emphasize the difference. The means is very important. The explanation is also very important. The delivery is also important. All of that is different in my scenario.
At this point, it's like Munsu is just replying to me for the sake of it lol.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Wed, 08-10-2016 at 11:27 AM.
Peace.
That's a different argument. As I said, I'm only interested in the facts. Then you say you accept them, then in the subsequent post you say you don't, as if they didn't occur...
In one post you actually admit that Souma did what I brought forward (merging of the two tactics against Copy Man). In another post, you act as if that didn't occur.
I call you on it.
So in the end, what it really is coming down to that you pretty much should acknowledge that it did occur. Just that it didn't go down as you would've have preferred, in a more satisfying manner.
And that's fine. My problem is that you're ambivalent about the former, sometimes you accept it, then you act as if that wasn't what occurred.
Wait, what?
Okay, I'll summarize my point because you seem to be misinterpreting me a lot. I never changed my stance. If it seemed like I did, it's because I didn't care to elaborate or argue with you about minor points.
Souma did nothing special to beat the trace skill. Everything you enumerated that he did, DID happen, and I naturally acknowledge that, but they aren't special. Special is subjective, and as such, you can't stop me from classifying them as such or not.
My scenario illustrates something that I do think is special, because 1) Souma acts out of character by actively tricking an opponent, and 2) He fakes out a stew and comes up with a completely different dish, not just the same stew Mimasaka could've easily predicted (taking advantage of the western theme vs stew limitation). Whether you like that or not is up to you. But it's factually not what happened in the story, so don't pretend it is.
That's all.
EDIT:
Why would you even devote this much time "calling me out?" I've been replying because I was defending my view of the episode, but you're practically saying that you've been arguing with me because you didn't like how I argued... which is like the least relevant thing in this thead.
Peace.
Guess part of the problem is what you mean by "special", I don't care if you think they're special or not. My aim was going to show you that the steps taken did combat Copy Man. Whether you think they're special or not is not really my concern.
As for your edit, because I like discussions and can't help myself even when I don't care for this particular discussion. That said, when facts are concerned, it's usually one of my favorites things to argue about, so hard to step away.
I don't care about what occurred in the show, whether it was liked or not, and such. But I take a bit of issue when facts that are quite evident but kept being seemingly ignored.
So that's where the disconnect is. I never ignored the facts. I just didn't acknowledge the ones pertaining to Souma's preparation as special, and therefore relevant. The categorization of "special" is important in this case because what me, and I think Mfauli, were arguing about is the entertainment and satisfaction value of the episode, particularly the explanation for Souma's win. That's it.
Peace.
OK, now I think we're going somewhere at least.
Your arguments seemed like they did from my POV. But alright, hopefully this will be the last of this particular regard.
I do think part of the disconnect is that you're not buying that Souma hid that dish + did improv, when from my POV I think it's objectively factual that it actually occurred.
But maybe now you can see that at least he actually did as much, and then maybe you have a problem with how it actually came about?
That's cool. Maybe we'll keep disagreeing on other issues, but you'd say that's an accurate depiction?
Indeed. I don't disagree that Souma somehow hid his final dish from Mimasaka. That is indeed what happened. What I was complaining about is HOW it happened, and that from my perspective, he shouldn't have been able to hide it from Mimasaka with the things that he did. This is clearly a subjective judgment.
From what I gather, you don't really care about that part, so I think we've reached an understanding.
Peace.
Episode 10:
Finally this arc is over, I pretty much hated it. I liked how it ended though, but hopefully this upcoming arc is better and not tournament style battles, which was boring.
Felt completely indifferent about the ending. The winner choice felt as arbitrary as most of the choices during this arc.
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
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