Great posting, shinta, fully agreed.
I´d only question the fighting shounen comparison. There it actually makes sense that simply copying moves isn´t enough, if you´re lacking the experience, physical strength and speed to execute these moves. See Kuririn doing his first kamehameha. Sure he was able to do a kamehameha. But it was laughable.
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
Damn, what a lot of words for a series we really don't care all that much for. So, I'll be succinct about it, since I agree with what you're saying in many regards.Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
All I took exception was to the statement concluding that what Souma did was 1) Simply try his best, and that would've been enough to beat Mimasaka, and that being so 2) That it's an insult to previous opponents because apparently it would mean they didn't try their best.
None of what you say contradicts/invalidates my observations of why that statement is flawed and the conclusion that accompanies it, and why there's no reason to take exception about it.
As for your last paragraph, that's a false comparison. More accurate to say that after the hero KNOWS he's going to face an enemy that can copy his moves, he focuses in developing a move that will kill his enemy in one shot (taking steps there's no way that the enemy will be able to see it prior to the fight). Yes, it'll take all his experiences and talent to come up with that move, and not just anyone can do it, but it is what it is. And it says no less about the previous opponents, whether they gave their best or not.
The point of introducing that element it's because it's a difficult enemy to beat, not everyone can do it. And two, it simply pushes our hero to reach heights he didn't imagine before.
All else simply ignores the nature of competition and how it pushes and motivates people.
And yeah, I wrote a shittier longer post that I intended, but whatever.
Last edited by Munsu; Mon, 08-08-2016 at 09:13 PM.
The fighting shounen comparison was made from the creator's perspective. Why introduce a copy move if you aren't gonna beat that move with something new or a counter? If you're just gonna have the hero do the same thing as always, then don't build that aspect up. When an author adds an element to a story, it has to have a purpose. An overly dramatized and complicated "trace" move has to be countered. If not, it would be completely under utilized. That is what happened in this episode.
Going back to numbers:
1) Souma really did just try his best. And that beat Mimasaka. Tell me, what new thing did he do this round that he didn't do in any other round? Do improv? But that DOESN'T WORK on Mimasaka! But apparently it does, if it's Souma.
2) It is an insult to all the previous opponents of Mimasaka because that means they suck. It's not because the trace skill is awesome. It's just because they were too low level to defeat a crappy skill that Souma beat without even preparing for it specifically. The "they didn't try hard enough" part was limited to your comment that they got lax on recipes or didn't hide their plan properly (unlike Souma who kept it in his head, god knows everyone wrote their recipe on a sheet of paper and left it somewhere unguarded). Of course they tried. Why would you assume they didn't? They aren't dead beats. They are people with ambitions.
Unfortunately, they just weren't the protagonist.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Mon, 08-08-2016 at 09:52 PM.
Peace.
It's not that they leave it unguarded, but that they would have trialed it in person first instead of giving the judges the very first time they've made a dish.
I'm pretty much in agreement with shinta's post here, as well as Bud's post here
The entire premise of the battle is that:
1) In order to perfect something, you have to physically practice it (and Mimasaka would profile it)
2) In order to avoid profiling you have to improvise (and it would be inferior to anthing Mimasaka has prepared - see "brine was used for 5 days" segment)
Mimasaka is so good at profiling that no one tricks him. If you come up with something randomly, it will never be as great, even if it's good. (that was his prediction of Souma's dish)
Souma won because he broke both rules: That you can pull a dish first-go and have it surpass anything you've physically created before.
------------
Mimasaka is actually small fry. All of his previous opponents were either small-fry who knew about Copy but could never beat it, or were good chefs that weren't prepared to counter Copy (like Aldini).
Souma beat Mimasaka by thinking "What do I have that his copy can never replicate: 16 years of experience". (Shinta explains that the reason why Souma could do this while no one else could, is due to protagonist power. His argument is that improvisation should always be like this. )
Aldini may not have lost to Souma in experience, but he definitely lost by not being prepared for Copy. He didn't have a bunch of meats/ingredients at his disposal.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Not exactly. My argument is that when in a shokugeki with valuable tools on the line, you will pour everything you have into the match, which includes your X years of experience, improv or not. Souma won because he had more experience, like always. That's his thing, right? Winning because you're simply that good actually does make sense. That's not the problem. Well, it is a problem because it is kinda anti-climactic, but see below.
This is where I take issue: Why even introduce a complicated copy skill for the enemy? Souma just shrugged it off without doing anything special. Souma always makes something using his everything (albeit limited by the rules), including experience, knowledge, and inspiration. That's what he did here.
Complicated skills are introduced to be countered. While there are exceptions, like having a protagonist so bad ass that he'll say you are so small fry it didn't matter, coating it with bullshit like experience ejaculation doesn't help.
Also, Aldini knew about the copy ability when he did his own improv using the olive oil, which Mimasaka knew about through stalking. Souma knew about the copy ability and brought various meats to the match, which Mimasaka ALSO knew about, yet Mimasaka was still darn confident it wouldn't beat his time-consuming bacon. But it did.
Peace.
Aldini had the oil on him, but he didn't bring it as an extra specifically in to counter Mimasaka. Souma prepared extra things to improvise with.
He won by saying 'you can't copy EVERYTHING' I know and cooked each and everything bit of meat he had.
Aldini didn't have that option even if he tried - because he didn't prepare each and every ingredient for this counter. His last-ditch effort was largely decided by what he had at hand.
If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~
Again, you're reducing what Souma did to simply "all he did was use his experience, knowledge, inspiration" as if that was all he did. That's a false premise.
Secondly, you're providing another false comparison with of Aldini's scenario against Mimasaka vs. Souma's scenario. It was completely different.
You're using a lot of wrong assumptions about the whole thing, that your conclusions simply don't hold up.
For example, had Souma not known that Mimasaka was a copy master, he would've lost... though plot shield might've prevented it, but logically, considering how things work in this world, he would've lost.
He had preparation in his favor, vast experience, and ability/skills to pull off a new dish (without practicing, though technically practicing versions of it throughout his lifetime).
So yes, ability, experience, knowledge, etc., etc., were a big part of it, but that's not ALL he brought to the table, and reducing it to just that, and then champion the idea that it somehow means that it's an insult to previous opponents is silly honestly.
So what exactly did he do different from what he usually does? Do improv? Then what exactly did he do different from all the defeated opponents who did improv?
My main argument is Souma didn't do anything to target the copy move. That's not unbelievable at all. People win just because they are better, that's fact. My gripe is Mimasaka's copy move didn't get countered directly, just overwhelmed by lots of other factors (most of them deriving from the fact that Souma is the protagonist and is therefore that good), making the introduction and build up (that trace was an unbeatable move by concept) of the skill a waste of time. It was a plot element that was severely underused in Souma's win.
Aldini also tapped into his experience when he did his improv, but he came way behind the trace dish, losing unanimously. Having more time to "prepare" doesn't matter in improv. That's the whole point of improv, you don't plan it and depend on inspiration and skill at the time (and yes, that includes your X years of experience. I mean, why the hell not?). Does that mean Aldini is just that inferior to Souma, who won unanimously?
If you're saying Souma's dish isn't improv, that's incorrect. He was clearly winging it when he was cooking those beef parts. He even said he was lucky he had that old fashioned grill with him. So cooking those beef parts in those ways was something he came up with on the fly, just like how Aldini came up with using olive oil on the fly. I think the comparison holds up pretty well.
Now if you're saying that Mimasaka wasn't able to predict how Souma planned to pull the whole dish together, then that makes the least sense. Because why? Why wouldn't Mimasaka predict that final dish? He knew about the oxtail stew, knew about Souma's past, knew about the beef parts, and even knew that they were gonna be used as garnish. He even prepared a targeted counter, a time-consuming bacon garnish. Why did Mimasaka think he would win until the judges started tasting Souma's dish..? Why was Souma's dish so different and unpredictable from everyone else's Mimasaka defeated?
He's the protagonist, that's why.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 08-09-2016 at 09:56 AM.
Peace.
Aside from the new dish he had to come up with without practicing it in a competition where your opponents have ample time to do so and perfect what they're doing?
Not sure why you have problem accepting that Souma managed to produce a new dish without practicing + coming prepared to the competition for any audibles he might need to employ as not a direct counter to Mimasaka.
You also work under the assumption that without Mimasaka there to challenge and push him that Souma would've managed to produce a dish this good (whatever that is in the context of this anime) vs. potentially a more pedestrian dish, that might've still been very good, but not this good. That's the nature of competition, it motivates. Growing as a cook is part of the point, not merely beating his opponent.
Your conclusions also seem to be assuming that Souma would've beaten Mimasaka even if he hadn't known of his copy strategy, since of course he would've used his full experience anyways... that'd would be false as well.
I'm pretty sure Souma would've beaten Mimasaka without knowing his copy ability. Why? He's the protagonist.
Kidding aside, you didn't answer this question: "What exactly did he do different from all the defeated opponents who did improv?"
And I think you missed this edit:
"Now if you're saying that Mimasaka wasn't able to predict how Souma planned to pull the whole dish together, then that makes the least sense. Because why? Why wouldn't Mimasaka predict that final dish? He knew about the oxtail stew, knew about Souma's past, knew about the beef parts, and even knew that they were gonna be used as garnish. He even prepared a targeted counter, a time-consuming bacon garnish. Why did Mimasaka think he would win until the judges started tasting Souma's dish..? Why was Souma's dish so different and unpredictable from everyone else's Mimasaka defeated?
He's the protagonist, that's why."
Now if you're saying that Souma evolved past anything Mimasaka could predict, that's actually supporting my point. Why did everyone else fail to do that, including Aldini? Weren't they motivated enough to defeat Mimasaka, despite having their beloved tools on the line? What makes Souma so different?
Again, plot armor.
Like I've said 3x now, this conclusion isn't unbelievable per se. It is just extremely unsatisfying.The trace ability deserved better treatment. Heck, I came up with a more reasonable way of beating it on the fly. Improv ftw.
Peace.
First we really don't know the circumstances under which previous opponents did their improv, so seems silly to speculate on this.
But preparedness comes to mind.
Why you keep bringing Aldini when he learned his recipe was being copied halfway through his baking? Heck he put his tool on the line for the match minutes before the competition. It makes no sense that you're drawing comparisons as if they were playing on equal terms when the scenarios are completely different. And that's probably how Mimasaka has done it in previous instances, ambushing people that way.
And I think you missed this edit:
"Now if you're saying that Mimasaka wasn't able to predict how Souma planned to pull the whole dish together, then that makes the least sense. Because why? Why wouldn't Mimasaka predict that final dish? He knew about the oxtail stew, knew about Souma's past, knew about the beef parts, and even knew that they were gonna be used as garnish. He even prepared a targeted counter, a time-consuming bacon garnish. Why did Mimasaka think he would win until the judges started tasting Souma's dish..? Why was Souma's dish so different and unpredictable from everyone else's Mimasaka defeated?
He's the protagonist, that's why."
Now if you're saying that Souma evolved past anything Mimasaka could predict, that's actually supporting my point. Why did everyone else fail to do that, including Aldini? Weren't they motivated enough to defeat Mimasaka, despite having their beloved tools on the line? What makes Souma so different?
Souma was different because he KNEW who he was facing, his tricks, and had ample time to think how to get past that. More than that he also had the experience and skills to do so, while at the same time not needing to practice his dish or giving hints on what he was actually making other a general concept of a stew. Whether you buy that or not, that's up to you.
Ok.Again, plot armor.
That's fine. Again, all I took exception was the idea behind that ALL Souma did was use his experience and skills to bludgeon his way through Mimasaka, and that by extension it was an insult for some reason to past opponents. It completely ignores the nature of competition.Like I've said 3x now, this conclusion isn't unbelievable per se. It is just extremely unsatisfying.The trace ability deserved better treatment. Heck, I came up with a more reasonable way of beating it on the fly. Improv ftw.
It seems to also ignore that had Souma not taken steps to hide what his final dish would become, that he would've won anyways because experience + skillz. That'd be false. He didn't EVOLVE beyond Mimasaka as opposed what others did, he simply did a pseudo improv, just they're not calling it that. Yes, his skills + experience play into it, because few in this school can match it as it is, but those steps he took made the difference to beat Mimasaka in a match he probably would've lost otherwise.
Like I said, what steps? What's a pseudo improv? You either improvise or you plan. Those are mutually exclusive. And no, "planning to improvise" doesn't count. I'll give you that Souma had prepared ingredients (which I wanna repeat Mimasaka knew about), so it wasn't completely out of inspiration, but the preparation part and thus the final dish is a product of improvisation.
What Souma did is nothing special. It's only natural to bring your best to the table. It's only natural to hide info and improvise if your opponent profiles and copies you. It's only natural to learn about the enemy before facing them, especially with valuable tools on the line. Are you saying none of the other people who defeated Mimasaka did any of this? Now that's unbelievable.
I never said (aside from that joke) that Souma would've won without knowing what he faced. What I did say is that I'm surprised no one else apparently knew what they were facing, or took measures against it. Except we know that's not true because Mimasaka explicitly stated that people do know about his trace and do take measures against it, 2 types of counters, to be exact.
Souma took the 2nd one. The show just disguised it as something else, namely experience ejaculation. I called that bullshit in my first post about it, and it still is many down the line. Souma didn't think of a way to get past the trace ability. He simply came up with an awesome dish which apparently Mimasaka failed to copy because of... reasons...
I like Buff's explanation. Mimasaka is small fry, and everyone else he defeated is small fry, including Aldini, who I'm pretty sure is well behind Souma's current self now. If Mimasaka faced one of the elite ten or even the other finalists in this contest, he would've been obliterated.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 08-09-2016 at 10:35 AM.
Peace.
Munsu, you can keep explaining it all you want. At the end of the day, Soma won because the plot demanded it. Not because of what he actually did.
We had learned that this guy´s copy ability is above anyone. He WILL know what you´re cooking, he WILL know how you´ll try and one-up him, and he WILL go one step beyond your expectations. That´s what we´ve been shown.
Then Some beat him because he couldn´t be predicted. Just because.
It´s not satisfying.
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
I admit it would have been better if one judge voted for Mimasaka.
Ah, so you arbitrarily remove "plan to improvise" from the table because it doesn't fit your narrative? OK. I call it pseudo improv because what he did was really an improv in many regards, the anime is simply giving a BS about why it's not called improv. What's not clear is WHAT part was actually improvised or not. That's what is most unclear about this, but there was no doubt that he brought elements of both foresight and planning while doing some improv as well. Whatever.
As for the other point about why no one took these steps, or why no one seemed to really know who they were facing, yes that's a complete flaw and dumb. But it's also true that Aldini was ignorant to it, and that Souma was ignorant to it, until the plot decided to introduce it... and then suddenly EVERYONE apparently knows. Also, you're ignoring the point that Mimasaka's MO was from ambushing people, not always on tournaments with set schedules and what not, probably outside of them. In any case, that's not what I'm arguing against, feel free to complain about it to your heart's content, since I agree it's a dumb way to come about it. It's pretty much the same shit that most shounen shows do when a new opponent comes and everyone acts surprised about some shit the opponent has been notorious for doing.
I agree with the part of the BS about calling it improv or not, but that's besides the point, it's simply a term. I just disagree with your characterization that he did nothing to take measures to get past the trace ability because he did. You don't want to buy them, that's fine. I'll still hold that Souma would've lost without those steps, else he would've faced Mimasaka straight on and produced the very same dish he was going to do and beat him that way, let him copy his dish.
As for the rest, it's irrelevant to what's being discussed.
That's a copout argument... everything is explained because the plot demanded it. That applies to all.
Yet he himself allows for the possibility that people can improvise against him, they simply haven't managed it for whatever reason (shitty cook, not enough tools/ingredients to come up with something new, etc., etc.)We had learned that this guy´s copy ability is above anyone. He WILL know what you´re cooking, he WILL know how you´ll try and one-up him, and he WILL go one step beyond your expectations. That´s what we´ve been shown.
Then Some beat him because he couldn´t be predicted. Just because.
It´s not satisfying.
He couldn't be predicted because profile all you want, it'd be impossible to take into account every single experience Souma has gone through in his whole life, in addition to Souma taking steps to make sure many of those factors where kept hidden from Mimasaka. Yes, that applies to everyone in some regard, just the same not everyone has the cooking experience, professional and not, that Souma has. Just the opposite.
No one said it had to be satisfying, I'm not trying to convince anyone that it was. I'm simply arguing against the flawed premise you guys are using of what actually occurred. Whether you want to buy them or not, whether you found them satisfactory or not, is not my concern.
What was true of what went on, is that Souma chickened out.
I'll just dive right into the heart of the matter.
You're saying Souma made some preparations that allowed him to win. I'm saying that those preparations are nothing special and shouldn't have allowed him to win. But they did. Because of plot armor. If you're saying you're okay with us being unsatisfied about that, then we no longer have an argument.
Peace.
Yes, that's the heart of the matter in some regards.. in the end, whether the show wants to come out straight and call it that, Souma did a combination of both what Copy Man said opponents did against him to counter his copying. Tricked him with the dish, and did some improv. In addition to that, he had ample time to work through it, some in his head (which is important so that Copy Man doesn't, well, copy it) and some physically (the preparation with the reporter) and then whatever he came up with on a whim in the day of the competition to pull it altogether.
I'm not sure why you don't think that's nothing special in the context that anyone could've done it, because no, not everyone could've.
So yes, that's a legit counter to what Mimasaka does, which is part of what you're arguing.
And yeah, I don't care if you find it satisfying or not, everything is pure bullshit anyways (that's like the premise of the show as it is, so it's a given), but don't bring false comparisons to the table, in particular what Aldini experienced which was completely different.
They aren't false comparisons. They aren't exact analogies, but they hold truth in that Mimasaka held the same cards in those matches as he did in Souma's. Even if Aldini was at a large disadvantage compared to Souma in terms of preparedness, that doesn't explain why Mimasaka wasn't able to profile Souma's dish.
Mimasaka knew about the oxtail stew and the various meats for the garnish, but somehow fails to predict the final dish. That's the main point of that comparison.
The reason why I don't think Souma's preparations are anything special is because everyone else should be doing the same thing. Everyone competent, at least. If they didn't, then they don't deserve to be in an elite cooking school that is supposedly so amazing.
But let's say it is something that only Souma could do. It still doesn't matter because it is not something that should negate Mimasaka's profiling, especially with all that build up and how much Mimasaka knew going into the match.
That's why I prefer Buff's take on it. Mimasaka just sucks, and so does Aldini (Yes, not investigating your enemy in a head to head match at all is considered sucking). That would justify how this all turned out, and wouldn't go against anything shown so far. Souma simply outgrew his old rival by leaps and bounds, like that episode in Ranma.
This goes in line with your ambush argument, and how valuable being prepared was. Mimasaka was never really as good as they hyped him to be. I just wish someone said this in the episode.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 08-09-2016 at 12:05 PM.
Peace.
Now this is more specific and a different argument though. The obvious answer is that Aldini was unaware of the steps he had to take to make sure someone like Mimasaka would be able to figure out the dish he was making. And that's just the first step.
Yet he allows for the possibility of improvisation...Mimasaka knew about the oxtail stew and the various meats for the garnish, but somehow fails to predict the final dish. That's the main point of that comparison.
As I also said, not necessarily because not everyone is facing the same circumstances and more so have the ability to improvise a good dish that's good without actually practicing said end dish.The reason why I don't think Souma's preparations are anything special is because everyone else should be doing the same thing. Everyone competent, at least. If they didn't, then they don't deserve to be in an elite cooking school that is supposedly so amazing.
Not everyone should be NOT PRACTICING their end recipe for example, and that's what Souma managed to do as one of the steps. You keep trying to equate this to simply trying your utmost best, when that simply is not true. It just isn't. MAYBE Souma would've been able to beat him regardless, I posture that he might have not, but we don't know now because Souma chickened out from the challenge.
You keep mentioning this as a conclusion based on very flawed premises. I've already enumerated various steps taken to prevent Mimasaka from fully profiling him.But let's say it is something that only Souma could do. It still doesn't matter because it is not something that should negate Mimasaka's profiling, especially with all that build up and how much Mimasaka knew going into the match.
If Mimasaka just sucked, Souma wouldn't have to gone through all these hoops (that you don't want to acknowledge) instead of facing him straight on as he initially said he would.That's why I prefer Buff's take on it. Mimasaka just sucks, and so does Aldini (Yes, not investigating your enemy in a head to head match at all is considered sucking). That would justify how this all turned out, and wouldn't go against anything shown so far. Souma simply outgrew his old rival by leaps and bounds, like that episode in Ranma.
This goes in line with your ambush argument, and how valuable being prepared was. Mimasaka was never really as good as they hyped him to be. I just wish someone said this in the episode.
Aldini and Mimasaka are good cooks objectively in this class (as objectively as cooking in anime can make it). Whether they match up with the top elites is another argument altogether to make. But that they've made it this far is proof enough that they're better than what the rest of the class has to offer.
Part of the point of the episode in Mimasaka's regard as it was stated in the episode is that Mimasaka is good enough to make his own things instead of relying on these tactics, so no, sorry but ambushing opponents does not equate to one sucking, like everything, it's a strategy to get ahead. Nothing more and nothing less.
But to your point, if you want to reduce some opponents to sucking for simply being unaware of who your opponent is, so be it.
Also, just to be clear, I'm not saying that these opponents didn't suck, they very well may have, but it's not the only explanation for what occurred AND doesn't mean that Mimasaka and Aldini suck either. They also don't invalidate what Souma HAD to do to beat Mimasaka (which again, you don't want to acknowledge has him doing).
It's not that I don't want to acknowledge what Souma did. What I'm not acknowledging is the author's decision to use such a lame excuse for Souma to win. If you notice from the start, I approached this episode from an entertainment standpoint. I have also said that the outcome is perfectly possible. The big problem is the hoops you mentioned aren't creative or impressive, and therefore not satisfying considering the build up.
Mimasaka was supposedly able to copy everyone and go one step beyond. That's his thing. Souma didn't break that skill. You say he sorta did by doing all those preparations. But the whole point of Mimasaka's ability is that those preparations, skill, experience, everything is negated because he profiles you and copies your dish perfectly, and then goes a step beyond. Souma didn't do anything to directly address that aspect of the battle. At the very least nothing impressive or worth all that build up. That's the main issue.
You're saying that Mimasaka failed to profile him. What part of him? His years of experience? That was the only aspect Mimasaka didn't know in detail. He knew about everything else. But wait, Mimasaka also knew about his time in Yukihira and managed to predict the oxtail stew based on that. So where exactly did Mimasaka fail?
Souma taking steps to prevent being profiled does not equate to those steps succeeding, and the episode clearly stated that Souma's attempt to hide info failed, and his attempt to improvise was foreseen, and his recipe plan was predicted.
Yet he still won. See my problem with this?
EDIT:
Also, relying on ambushes doesn't necessarily mean you suck, but it is highly suggestive of it. If you are truly a great chef, then there's no need to lower the abilities of your opponents during the battle. The fact that you need to do this means you are covering up for a weakness or gap in ability.
Why is this relevant? Because I think Mimasaka's base skill is not that high. Sure, he's better than the nameless mobs, but we're talking about the named characters here. When I said he and Aldini suck, it's in comparison to the relevant names in the show, like Souma, the other finalists, Alice, and the like. I only used the elite 10 for comparison to exaggerate the conclusion, which is him being obliterated.
Why does Mimasaka's base skill being low matter? Because that would explain how Souma won without breaking the copy skill, and how Mimasaka failed to profile Souma's final dish despite knowing everything he usually does about his opponents.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Tue, 08-09-2016 at 01:46 PM.
Peace.
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